first source: Patients with low T/E2 ratio had more unfavourable inflammatory profiles compared with patients with high T/E2… guessing they had normal/high E2 and low T?
second source: Compared with control group, levels of both serum T and E2 decreased…
third source: At the same time, our data suggest that 7.5 pmol/L of free estrogen is the cut-off point above which the risk of CEVD decreases 86% compared to the risk of the highest-risk group. Supplementation with estrogen therefore seems a good way to protect the blood vessels of the brain in elderly men. However, for elderly men whose estrogen is already extremely high, simple estrogen replacement might not be appropriate. A recent study [25] measured blood estradiol in 501 men with chronic heart failure and found that men in the highest quintile of estradiol (serum estradiol more than 37.40 pg/mL or 137.26 pmol/L) had an increased death rate. The authors recommended that in aging males, estradiol should be kept under 30 pg/mL (110.1 pmol/L)… This is study is bit tidius to decipher I wish they would just give more concrete numbers and what they did for the man. if I were a betting men, I would guess one of these values was not in a healthy range and on the low end and when it was fixed it was fit into some ratio that average healthy levels seem to fall in.
Fourth source: Ugh just like the third source its a bit tidius, it just talks about healthy ratios and has another 8 references or something of its own. As I said I would like to see something where a ratio isnt forced by just fixing one horomone or the other, and having both fall into their own healthy individual value.
This makes sense: if they have low e2 and you bring it up to “normal” they show benefits. If their e2 is “normal” already adding more won’t show any benefit.
Exactly so what essentially is going on is now both T and E2 are in a normal range and it just so happens you can make a “ratio” out of it. Never have I seen this proved with evidence as you keep going up and up in T levels that aren’t seen in the general population. All these studies show is low T or E2 is bad, and funny enough both being low is bad, in theory wouldn’t the importance of ratio still work if both are low? So ratios work when both are in normal range but they don’t when both are low?
Well yea captain obvious… If something is down to shit, nothing matters at that point. The HDL to LDL ratio thats acceptable is like 1:6 but also not when your HDL is 0 or 10, right? I am surprised that anyone would think that just because there is a prefered ratio of anything, it will apply in every extreme case also.
The idea is that if your normal T is low, and there is a certain amount of e2 that is normal for your natural condition, then when adding extra T, you shouldnt take AI to kill the e2 as low as it was when your T was also lower.
I think you are really overthinking the simple idea of the “ratio” which means more like - if you T goes up, its ok for your e2 to go up also, and if your T goes up 10 times, dont push your e2 as low as it was before the extra test.
And in case you will be wondering “well then if e2 gets out of whack and is 300 its still ok cuz its more than it was and T is more, so why doesnt this work like this” then ill explain - WITHIN THE EXTENT OF SOMETHING CLOSE TO NORMAL for that case, not idiotic extremes just to argue.
Well ok then let me be captain obvious again and say if ratios don’t carry over to when both are low what makes you guys think it will carry over for when both are high? Or even higher end if said individual never even been higher than 500TT as a natty?
To your second point I want to see one source please. Just one. Anecdote has shown some guys have to suppress E2 as they go higher dose. You also mention taking an AI in order to kill E2 as low as it was when T was lower… what do you mean by that? You are trying to argue for a ratio by starting off with the notion there has to be a ratio??? What does the individual level of T matter on what your E2 level was??? Or are you saying it’s linear? Also no one is saying to any pre existing level, but to maintain it by what ever means where you are comfortable.
I am not over thinking anything… either there is a “ratio” or there isn’t. A ratio is a ratio, there is a literal definition for it. As stated previous guys who feel better by lowering dose or feel better by even increasing it and adding AI disprove any ratio argument.
Because when stuff is low, its just low. Its not there, shit is bad and no matter in what ratios, but bad is bad.
And yes, if it gets TOO high its also not good, as i mentioned. But if someones natural T is like 500 and his e2 is 30, then when his T is 5000, he shouldnt swallow AI just to keep the e2 at 30-40.
I can only speak for myself, and as i mentioned at my very first comment - i dont know what is mine ratio nor do i know what should it be for others, its just my personal opinion that as T goes up, its ok for e2 to go up.
I used to be on 2 grams of test with no AI. My e2 was 300+ off the chart, when normal is around 30 and felt completely fine, and i also was lean as fuck, no bloat, no gyno, good hematocrit. Now when i started reading shit online and taking more AI, thats where i had some small problems, so to answer this :
The only source that matters is the person saying his experience and showing his results. Where i come from, you can cite all the internet you want but if you are on steroids but dont look like on steroids, no one gives a shit how smart your are. Even tho this logic is not always true, i kind of stand by the fact that my source is my 15+ years of experience using stuff, my 250lbs with full six pack, and the fact that i dont have any heart or organ issues. And again, as i said twice already - im not even saying i am right. I expressed my opinion. If you wanna go chase doctors in laboratories who write studies and dont even use the stuff themselves - you have all the rights to do so
Explain guys who feel better by either lowering dose or adding AI, or a double whammy in increasing dose and adding AI. When you talk about yourself and your experience you are pretty much showing what each individual levels you can tolerate.
No, don’t have a “source” either other than my own experience, much like the other guys here. I will say that there is a faction here and on other forums that preach that E2 is the devil and must be suppressed at all times. What about that “notion”?
Never really seen it other than the heavy majority saying it can be high E2 and what works for them, and to possibly considering it after exhausting all other options. By far the negativity towards E2 is people sharing their experience and saying it’s a possibility as this is what happens to them, there is no notion of E2 being the end be all of all evil. The notion of “it’s not E2, let E2 go higher, never take AI” is way way more prevalent, no need to pretend like it’s not the dominant majority.
How about every single study done with testosterone showing benefits. In every study they gave testosterone which raise testosterone levels and in doing so they also raised estradiol. Those that miss lead are those that tried to keep estradiol in the range for men with low testosterone levels not for men with good testosterone levels. Testosterone works by being converted to its active metabolites estradiol and DHT. That’s how you get the benefits of testosterone through its active metabolites so as you raise testosterone you in fact will raise estradiol and DHT therefore getting the benefits of testosterone. I think your question will be better asked if you asked provide some sort of proof that raising testosterone and keeping estradiol lower is beneficial.
Every study ever done with testosterone that showed benefit in men. Just pick one you have thousands to choose from. And everyone of the studies where testosterone was beneficial they did not control E2. When you raise testosterone you raise E2 as that is how it works. The beneficial effects from testosterone come from its conversion into its active metabolites. So how about you provide any source that shows that men on testosterone benefit from controlling their estradiol other than anecdotal evidence of men on forums. I have Looked and I can’t find any. Can You? Normal estradiol range is not for men on testosterone it’s for men not on testosterone without good levels of testosterone. If you just searched out men with excellent testosterone levels naturally they would have an estradiol level to reflect that testosterone level and therefore the estradiol levels would be higher. That’s how it works from a physiology standpoint.
Post me one study where they just going up liberally in doses and what were the average E2 levels. Also post me a study when AI have been proven harmful without crashed E2.
Show me one study where above say 40 E2 is beneficial as one of the studies already posted here down right says it can actually make things worse for the cardiovascular system.
You are making my point for me. In every study giving testosterone into men and raising estradiol by doing so most of them didn’t even measure estradiol. None of them controlled estradiol. So the point is men that control and block estradiol are doing so based on the opposite of what the medical studies do. I think you need to provide evidence that taking an AI without crashing your E2 has proven to be beneficial. In fact some of the newer guidelines as written by Dr. Abraham Morgentaler specifically state to not use non-aromatizeable androgens for testosterone therapy and to not block estradiol because of the beneficial effects it provides. Yes you can block it a little bit and therefore you a block the beneficial effects of testosterone at the tissue level “a little bit”. You choose to ignore physiology and how testosterone works but that’s fine you can continue to do that. But just remember in every single study when men are given testosterone their estradiol rises and in none of these studies were testosterone was beneficial did men need to block their estradiol even “a little bit”. If an E2 above 40 was worse for the cardiovascular system then all the women would be dying at a young age. Or are you now going to tell me that their vascular system is different from ours? Men are now being given oral estradiol to manage their dyslipidemia and guess what it is protective against cardiovascular disease. Not only are they not controlling it they are actually taking it. Men that are on Androgen deprivation therapy for prostate cancer are now taking oral estradiol for cardiovascular protection. Oh wait a minute they’re raising estradiol and you say that it’s going to be worse for their cardiovascular system correct? The opposite is true from what you are stating. So when one follows evidence based medicine and does what the medical literature shows you give me on testosterone and you don’t block estradiol. Those that block it are doing it not based on any studies supporting it.
That’s actually because you can’t. You literally can’t provide anything to back up what you’re saying other than talking points. My questions still remain.
You don’t see the fallacy there do you? Hey why don’t we just have EVERYONE do 200mg T a week? Why is it some guys lower dose? Were all those guys in that study, which you haven’t posted, injecting the same dose and running the same t levels? Even then it doesn’t matter because they didn’t even measure E2 lmao. Their protocols, just like all of ours, are adjusted to a tolerable level of E2.
Dude you are completely lost in this conversation and yes, yes I can based off of my experience. No one is saying to crash E2 or keep it at a certain one size fits all level for everyone. Go back to the start you are all over the place and have no argument, I am not proving you right, you haven’t made a single point or show any proof. Lol a study that I didn’t even post said it itself that after having some estrogen there is a cut off based on their research which can make heart problems worse. In my case my E2 was untraceable pre TRT, getting readable levels benefited me, did it benefit me going above 30? 35? 40? NO. Doesn’t matter if my TT is 800 or 1500.
What questions do you have? You like to answer questions with questions. you said a whole lot without saying much. Let’s keep this simple ok? Follow me…… we got anecdote going both ways correct? Show me proof of a one size fits all approach when it comes to E2, because it’s not me who’s preaching it, YOU are. What you are doing is looking at guys who are doing 70mg per week all the way to 250mg per week, adjusting their protocol till they feel good and saying a ha! Estrogen helped and is not the problem! No AI was needed! Then why the hell did some guys have to reduce their dose?
Ok I just skimmed some of your stuff I got no time to go over all your fallacies but this one made me laugh. You understand men and women are different yeah? Pump women with a TT level of 600 and see what happens lmao….
You don’t see the fallacy there do you? Hey why don’t we just have EVERYONE do 200mg T a week? Why is it some guys lower dose? Were all those guys in that study, which you haven’t posted, injecting the same dose and running the same t levels? Even then it doesn’t matter because they didn’t even measure E2 lmao. Their protocols, just like all of ours, are adjusted to a tolerable level of E2.