No I understand what you’re saying.
Can’t show that it’s in there can you?
It is. But I just realized you didn’t post the study link, another guy did. And it is in that write up. But, can’t expect you to read what the other guy posted lol. So no worries there.
No problem. The article I posted is excellent though take a read
The guidelines are not the word of God, the guidelines are evolving over time and will continue to change.
The guidelines say 200 mg every two weeks, but we know better don’t we?
You’re missing the whole point of the guidelines. It had nothing to do with dosages of recommended dosages it had to do with the benefits of testosterone. It also had to do with all those benefits are without estrogen management. Also you missed the bigger picture, even with 200 mg every two weeks or even every one week you still get positive benefits of testosterone. Don’t nitpick a positive recommendation. The guidelines are supportive of testosterone therapy and it’s positive benefits. You should take this as a win and not try to denigrate this paper. No one said they were the word of God but these are really good recommendations from people that attack those that attack the use of testosterone.
I still want you to make the statement of “Any and every man should be able to reach and tolerate and even benefit from a E2 level of X”. According to you no AI needed correct? Its a personal ratio? And the famous saying of higher E2 comes with higher T.
So everyone here who has struggled with TRT to an extent; guys who had to lower dose to 70, or guys who lowered dose to 100, or guys who actually used an AI and went higher dose are all wrong and in theory we can all pump our levels to the point of being able to say “all our E2 is 60 but we are all feeling excellent and good”
For example me that i feel better on 100mg solo T or 160-180mg with AI >>>>>> 140mg solo T. I would have eventually reached some natural beneficial ratio buy going up and up in my T dose without AI?
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So what are you getting at? You mentioned women and their E2 levels to try and prove a point to me about men and their E2 levels, so I am asking you what happens if we pump women up to 600 TT???
Point is is men do not have a natural protective level of estradiol but women do. Estradiol doesn’t cause harm when you raise it in men receiving testosterone. In fact the majority of the beneficial effects from testosterone come from its aromatization at the tissue level into estradiol. If estradiol was harmful and cause heart attacks strokes and blood clots then women would die from it every day but in fact they die From cardiovascular disease after menopause when they lose their estradiol. Young men, not young women, are the ones that die from heart attacks.
Now giving testosterone to a woman plays no role in what we’re talking about with regard to estradiol in men. But if you want to know what happens if you raise a woman’s testosterone to 600 then just look on other places on this forum where there are plenty of women and men using testosterone for performance enhancement. The women will tell you what happens to them when they use testosterone for bodybuilding.
Maybe you could tell us all why no guidelines in the United States or in Europe or any other country recommends measuring or controlling estradiol in men on testosterone? In fact some of the latest guidelines produced by the worlds leading urologist specifically state not to block estradiol and to only use androgen that can be aromatized. Why? Because they know how testosterone works. Other than forums You won’t find any medical guidelines or literature supporting control in Estradiol. It’s OK if you do the problem is is you just can’t provide anything with regard to the medical literature that it is necessary or beneficial.
Can you actually answer some questions or actually make some kind of relevant point without dancing around in circle and spinning things with your own questions which has nothing to do with the topic or what being said by me or anyone else.
I have been saying this whole time there are no supposed ratios and each inidividual can only tolerate a ceertain amount of E2. How they decide to control it, AI or lower dose, is up to them and is not the topic of discussion. What do you want me to show you exactly? What do you want me to prove?
Once again we got anecdote going both ways, and unlike you I don’t write off the guys saying “hey my E2 is 70 and I feel godlike”, you know what? Thats great for them and I am not saying they are wrong. You actually preaching a one way system, it is on you to prove your claims and tell all of us who claim we have E2 problems that we are wrong.
We all aren’t on one standard protocol or T levels or E2 levels for a reason, what ever protocol we are on that works for us is in fact a form of controlling E2. Please don’t come back to me with something irrelevant or telling me to show you something we can clearly see in life practice.
As I said make a statement please right here and now that in theory every and anyone should be able to have E2 levels of lets say 60 and do just fine.
What I am saying is when you are controlling estradiol you are the only one with anecdotal evidence. That’s my whole point it’s anecdotal evidence only. No guideline and no study blocks or controls estradiol in men on testosterone therapy what do you not get about that? The problem is you’re controlling it because you believe that’s what makes you better because your testosterone is not done right. When done right nobody needs aromatase inhibitor. I interact with hundreds of providers and none of them have patients that need an aromatase inhibitor. It’s a form thing promoted by forum guys. Well let’s wait a minute then if you’re right and people need to control it based on their individual variability then why didn’t that need to happen in any study to date and why isn’t it in any guidelines? You are the one talking in circles and you always do because you can’t provide any evidence other than anecdotal evidence that what you’re doing is needed. Actual medicine says otherwise. Strange How your statement some guys can only tolerate a certain amount of E2 is not not supported any of the medical literature and you can’t find any to support that statement. It’s just guys talking on forums. It’s your opinion and well your opinion is not based on medical facts. You may need one but you wouldn’t if it was done right let me just put it that way to you
Please.
Hmmmmm have I not said this isnt the damn topic on hand? Have I not said you been arguing with yourself and from the wrong starting point? Thank you for proving me right.
No guidelines support what you’re saying nor does any medical literature. Most of the studies don’t even measure estradiol. You don’t understand what you’re measuring with regard to Estradiol do you? What you’re measuring in the serum where does that come from? Does it have an endocrine function? Does it measure it at the tissue level? Is it representative of Whats at the tissue level? The problem is that you don’t know what you don’t know. You only know what you read on forums and learned on forums.
And they don’t need to measure Estradiol either.
I should remind myself next time I dose 140mg solo T and feel like utter garbage. I should be like “No you are fine! everything is good! You should feel excellent!”… but wait I felt better on 100mg T or even going higher T and adding AI, “No you are wrong! you didnt’t feel better! Why are you even measuring your E2! Your E2 doesn’t even matter even though it seems like its the common denominator”.
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I’m also pointing out that your claims of E2 problems are not E2 problems. I’m telling you no one needs and aromatase inhibitor and that includes you
AT 80-100mg a week T no I don’t need an AI i know that. You are shifting goal posts now ha? Can you go back to the beginning of this debate and actually read what you decided to respond to from the get go? I am not preaching a pro AI approach, stop shifting goal post.
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Yeah screw how I think and feel doing multiple regimens and monitoring blood work, as have countless of people here. Only your opinion matters I guess.
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I’ve heard it thousands of times and see it every day of every week your story is nothing special. And none of them are on and aromatase inhibitor any longer and doing better than They have ever done. Your story is a dime a dozen and it fills up every Forum concerning testosterone therapy. Funny thing is all the men out there that are truly optimize are not on forms but instead at living life to the fullest and certainly not thinking about something like their estradiol levels