[quote]Sifu wrote:
Even Hitler wasn’t like the Hitler we are shown in pop culture. What we have been shown is a caricature. A demented, unstable, screaming madman who put everyone around him in fear. In reality he was actually quite charming and personable, when he wanted to be. That charming side of his personality was a reason why he was able to get into power.
It’s understandable that people would want to vilify him, but it is misleading and doesn’t serve us well.[/quote]
WTF? Serial killers are also charming. Date rapists as well. Child molesters. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be vilified and when we do vilify them it doesn’t mean we’ve been misled but rather we aren’t morons who take the concepts of tolerance and moral relativism to the absurd. And Hitler was indeed demented, unstable, and a madman who put everyone (not literally, obviously) around him in fear. He was also “smart” enough to get into power but not smart enough to stay in power as evidenced by his military “genius.”
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Even Hitler wasn’t like the Hitler we are shown in pop culture. What we have been shown is a caricature. A demented, unstable, screaming madman who put everyone around him in fear. In reality he was actually quite charming and personable, when he wanted to be. That charming side of his personality was a reason why he was able to get into power.
It’s understandable that people would want to vilify him, but it is misleading and doesn’t serve us well.[/quote]
I believe the point attempted to be made here is that the general accepted image of Hitler doesn’t serve us well in that people will not learn from the past. An unstable, Evil madman isn’t always foaming at the mouth and easily identifiable. But rather, more often then not He is presentable and a charming person on the surface. It serves us well to remember so we are vigilant to the actions of leaders regardless of likable personality.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Even Hitler wasn’t like the Hitler we are shown in pop culture. What we have been shown is a caricature. A demented, unstable, screaming madman who put everyone around him in fear. In reality he was actually quite charming and personable, when he wanted to be. That charming side of his personality was a reason why he was able to get into power.
It’s understandable that people would want to vilify him, but it is misleading and doesn’t serve us well.[/quote]
I believe the point attempted to be made here is that the general accepted image of Hitler doesn’t serve us well in that people will not learn from the past. An unstable, Evil madman isn’t always foaming at the mouth and easily identifiable. But rather, more often then not He is presentable and a charming person on the surface. It serves us well to remember so we are vigilant to the actions of leaders regardless of likable personality.[/quote]
I understand the idea of the banality of evil but Hitler was insane and as far as recognizing that insanity: we have his words and orders. Violent hate speech is still violent hate speech, even if it is given with a smile. Germans didn’t fall for his charm but fell for him because he told them what they wanted to hear. He was preaching to the choir. Charm doesn’t get one to stick someone in an oven. Fear or a shared belief does.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Even Hitler wasn’t like the Hitler we are shown in pop culture. What we have been shown is a caricature. A demented, unstable, screaming madman who put everyone around him in fear. In reality he was actually quite charming and personable, when he wanted to be. That charming side of his personality was a reason why he was able to get into power.
It’s understandable that people would want to vilify him, but it is misleading and doesn’t serve us well.[/quote]
I believe the point attempted to be made here is that the general accepted image of Hitler doesn’t serve us well in that people will not learn from the past. An unstable, Evil madman isn’t always foaming at the mouth and easily identifiable. But rather, more often then not He is presentable and a charming person on the surface. It serves us well to remember so we are vigilant to the actions of leaders regardless of likable personality.[/quote]
I understand the idea of the banality of evil but Hitler was insane and as far as recognizing that insanity: we have his words and orders. Violent hate speech is still violent hate speech, even if it is given with a smile. Germans didn’t fall for his charm but fell for him because he told them what they wanted to hear. He was preaching to the choir. Charm doesn’t get one to stick someone in an oven. Fear or a shared belief does. [/quote]
That is not true.
While antisemitism was rampant, that is not why they loved him in the 30s.
He basically nullified the treaty of Versailles which was unbearable, started public works programs that occupied a lot of people and laid the foundation of the welfare state.
So, after a war and a crippling peace treaty, starvation and hyperinflation people had work and enough to eat, he was telling England and France where to stick it, many people had their first holiday ever with Nazi organizations and their children got a decent education.
The sticking people into ovens part came very late and was never part of the official propaganda.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Even Hitler wasn’t like the Hitler we are shown in pop culture. What we have been shown is a caricature. A demented, unstable, screaming madman who put everyone around him in fear. In reality he was actually quite charming and personable, when he wanted to be. That charming side of his personality was a reason why he was able to get into power.
It’s understandable that people would want to vilify him, but it is misleading and doesn’t serve us well.[/quote]
I believe the point attempted to be made here is that the general accepted image of Hitler doesn’t serve us well in that people will not learn from the past. An unstable, Evil madman isn’t always foaming at the mouth and easily identifiable. But rather, more often then not He is presentable and a charming person on the surface. It serves us well to remember so we are vigilant to the actions of leaders regardless of likable personality.[/quote]
I understand the idea of the banality of evil but Hitler was insane and as far as recognizing that insanity: we have his words and orders. Violent hate speech is still violent hate speech, even if it is given with a smile. Germans didn’t fall for his charm but fell for him because he told them what they wanted to hear. He was preaching to the choir. Charm doesn’t get one to stick someone in an oven. Fear or a shared belief does. [/quote]
You would be surprised and absolutely disgusted at humanity when you realize just how far charm goes.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Even Hitler wasn’t like the Hitler we are shown in pop culture. What we have been shown is a caricature. A demented, unstable, screaming madman who put everyone around him in fear. In reality he was actually quite charming and personable, when he wanted to be. That charming side of his personality was a reason why he was able to get into power.
It’s understandable that people would want to vilify him, but it is misleading and doesn’t serve us well.[/quote]
I believe the point attempted to be made here is that the general accepted image of Hitler doesn’t serve us well in that people will not learn from the past. An unstable, Evil madman isn’t always foaming at the mouth and easily identifiable. But rather, more often then not He is presentable and a charming person on the surface. It serves us well to remember so we are vigilant to the actions of leaders regardless of likable personality.[/quote]
I understand the idea of the banality of evil but Hitler was insane and as far as recognizing that insanity: we have his words and orders. Violent hate speech is still violent hate speech, even if it is given with a smile. Germans didn’t fall for his charm but fell for him because he told them what they wanted to hear. He was preaching to the choir. Charm doesn’t get one to stick someone in an oven. Fear or a shared belief does. [/quote]
You would be surprised and absolutely disgusted at humanity when you realize just how far charm goes.[/quote]
I’m more disgusted at people who make the wrong choice and then blame it on being charmed rather than their own weaknesses, shortcomings, biases, and lack of moral courage. Hitler didn’t charm anyone who didn’t want to get charmed. After the war how many used the excuse, “I was just following orders”? You don’t do what some of these people did unless at some level you agreed with it and maybe even enjoyed it. It makes following orders a lot easier.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Even Hitler wasn’t like the Hitler we are shown in pop culture. What we have been shown is a caricature. A demented, unstable, screaming madman who put everyone around him in fear. In reality he was actually quite charming and personable, when he wanted to be. That charming side of his personality was a reason why he was able to get into power.
It’s understandable that people would want to vilify him, but it is misleading and doesn’t serve us well.[/quote]
I believe the point attempted to be made here is that the general accepted image of Hitler doesn’t serve us well in that people will not learn from the past. An unstable, Evil madman isn’t always foaming at the mouth and easily identifiable. But rather, more often then not He is presentable and a charming person on the surface. It serves us well to remember so we are vigilant to the actions of leaders regardless of likable personality.[/quote]
I understand the idea of the banality of evil but Hitler was insane and as far as recognizing that insanity: we have his words and orders. Violent hate speech is still violent hate speech, even if it is given with a smile. Germans didn’t fall for his charm but fell for him because he told them what they wanted to hear. He was preaching to the choir. Charm doesn’t get one to stick someone in an oven. Fear or a shared belief does. [/quote]
You would be surprised and absolutely disgusted at humanity when you realize just how far charm goes.[/quote]
I’m more disgusted at people who make the wrong choice and then blame it on being charmed rather than their own weaknesses, shortcomings, biases, and lack of moral courage. Hitler didn’t charm anyone who didn’t want to get charmed. After the war how many used the excuse, “I was just following orders”? You don’t do what some of these people did unless at some level you agreed with it and maybe even enjoyed it. It makes following orders a lot easier. [/quote]
People are only as moral as it takes to get by with no repercussion. Pull the veneer back and give people an accepted class to beat torture and kill many if not most will at least stand by and watch if not participate. Look at modern Israel even there the lessons of the past haven’t been learned.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Even Hitler wasn’t like the Hitler we are shown in pop culture. What we have been shown is a caricature. A demented, unstable, screaming madman who put everyone around him in fear. In reality he was actually quite charming and personable, when he wanted to be. That charming side of his personality was a reason why he was able to get into power.
It’s understandable that people would want to vilify him, but it is misleading and doesn’t serve us well.[/quote]
I believe the point attempted to be made here is that the general accepted image of Hitler doesn’t serve us well in that people will not learn from the past. An unstable, Evil madman isn’t always foaming at the mouth and easily identifiable. But rather, more often then not He is presentable and a charming person on the surface. It serves us well to remember so we are vigilant to the actions of leaders regardless of likable personality.[/quote]
I understand the idea of the banality of evil but Hitler was insane and as far as recognizing that insanity: we have his words and orders. Violent hate speech is still violent hate speech, even if it is given with a smile. Germans didn’t fall for his charm but fell for him because he told them what they wanted to hear. He was preaching to the choir. Charm doesn’t get one to stick someone in an oven. Fear or a shared belief does. [/quote]
You would be surprised and absolutely disgusted at humanity when you realize just how far charm goes.[/quote]
I’m more disgusted at people who make the wrong choice and then blame it on being charmed rather than their own weaknesses, shortcomings, biases, and lack of moral courage. Hitler didn’t charm anyone who didn’t want to get charmed. After the war how many used the excuse, “I was just following orders”? You don’t do what some of these people did unless at some level you agreed with it and maybe even enjoyed it. It makes following orders a lot easier. [/quote]
Which is the point - enough charm, you can convince a person there is no repercussion for a negative act and BAM suddenly holocaust.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Even Hitler wasn’t like the Hitler we are shown in pop culture. What we have been shown is a caricature. A demented, unstable, screaming madman who put everyone around him in fear. In reality he was actually quite charming and personable, when he wanted to be. That charming side of his personality was a reason why he was able to get into power.
It’s understandable that people would want to vilify him, but it is misleading and doesn’t serve us well.[/quote]
I believe the point attempted to be made here is that the general accepted image of Hitler doesn’t serve us well in that people will not learn from the past. An unstable, Evil madman isn’t always foaming at the mouth and easily identifiable. But rather, more often then not He is presentable and a charming person on the surface. It serves us well to remember so we are vigilant to the actions of leaders regardless of likable personality.[/quote]
I understand the idea of the banality of evil but Hitler was insane and as far as recognizing that insanity: we have his words and orders. Violent hate speech is still violent hate speech, even if it is given with a smile. Germans didn’t fall for his charm but fell for him because he told them what they wanted to hear. He was preaching to the choir. Charm doesn’t get one to stick someone in an oven. Fear or a shared belief does. [/quote]
You would be surprised and absolutely disgusted at humanity when you realize just how far charm goes.[/quote]
I’m more disgusted at people who make the wrong choice and then blame it on being charmed rather than their own weaknesses, shortcomings, biases, and lack of moral courage. Hitler didn’t charm anyone who didn’t want to get charmed. After the war how many used the excuse, “I was just following orders”? You don’t do what some of these people did unless at some level you agreed with it and maybe even enjoyed it. It makes following orders a lot easier. [/quote]
People are only as moral as it takes to get by with no repercussion. Pull the veneer back and give people an accepted class to beat torture and kill many if not most will at least stand by and watch if not participate. Look at modern Israel even there the lessons of the past haven’t been learned.
[/quote]
I don’t agree with that. We have laws against certain things yet, in spite of that and the possible consequences, people still break them. You have people who could get away with breaking a law, yet they don’t. Maybe a majority of people will lack integrity and moral courage but how much of a majority that is, I don’t know.
In Italy during WW2 it was OK to persecute Jews. Hitler wanted Mussolini to get more rigorous with rounding them up. Some were taken away to concentration camps yet many Italians did not take part and in fact helped to hide Jews. It was acceptable for them to round up Jews yet they didn’t. In France after the Nazi occupation you had Frenchmen helping to hand over Jews to the Germans. Of course France’s history with its Jews is not something to brag about. In the part of France that the Italians occupied they did not turn over Jews. It was acceptable for them to do it and the Germans expected them to but they refused, on moral grounds. There would have been no “legal” repercussions (at that time) had the Italians actively participated in the Holocaust yet they refused because of the moral repercussions.
Morocco had a large Jewish population during WW2 and they were told to start handing over their Jewish citizens but the king refused.
IMO, the Germans did not commit the atrocities they did because they were told it was OK, that there would be no repercussions, but because they wanted to, because they believed it was OK. Hitler didn’t make them hate the Jews, he merely took advantage of it. (Some)White men slaughtered the Indians in this country not because someone in the govt told them it was OK but because they already believed it was OK.
If raping women were no longer against the law I doubt you would see a rise in the number of rapists. Number of rapes, yes, because those who already rape (in spite of it being illegal) would be able to do so much easier. It won’t turn someone into a rapist though.
Again, IMO, people like to use the just following orders, everyone else was doing it, I was caught up in the mob’s madness, I was charmed, etc., excuses to pass the buck. It’s easier than looking inside yourself and accepting that there was/is something dark there. However, I don’t believe everyone has that darkness within them, at least not to the degree that they would engage in genocide or something.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Even Hitler wasn’t like the Hitler we are shown in pop culture. What we have been shown is a caricature. A demented, unstable, screaming madman who put everyone around him in fear. In reality he was actually quite charming and personable, when he wanted to be. That charming side of his personality was a reason why he was able to get into power.
It’s understandable that people would want to vilify him, but it is misleading and doesn’t serve us well.[/quote]
I believe the point attempted to be made here is that the general accepted image of Hitler doesn’t serve us well in that people will not learn from the past. An unstable, Evil madman isn’t always foaming at the mouth and easily identifiable. But rather, more often then not He is presentable and a charming person on the surface. It serves us well to remember so we are vigilant to the actions of leaders regardless of likable personality.[/quote]
I understand the idea of the banality of evil but Hitler was insane and as far as recognizing that insanity: we have his words and orders. Violent hate speech is still violent hate speech, even if it is given with a smile. Germans didn’t fall for his charm but fell for him because he told them what they wanted to hear. He was preaching to the choir. Charm doesn’t get one to stick someone in an oven. Fear or a shared belief does. [/quote]
You would be surprised and absolutely disgusted at humanity when you realize just how far charm goes.[/quote]
I’m more disgusted at people who make the wrong choice and then blame it on being charmed rather than their own weaknesses, shortcomings, biases, and lack of moral courage. Hitler didn’t charm anyone who didn’t want to get charmed. After the war how many used the excuse, “I was just following orders”? You don’t do what some of these people did unless at some level you agreed with it and maybe even enjoyed it. It makes following orders a lot easier. [/quote]
People are only as moral as it takes to get by with no repercussion. Pull the veneer back and give people an accepted class to beat torture and kill many if not most will at least stand by and watch if not participate. Look at modern Israel even there the lessons of the past haven’t been learned.
[/quote]
I don’t agree with that. We have laws against certain things yet, in spite of that and the possible consequences, people still break them. You have people who could get away with breaking a law, yet they don’t. Maybe a majority of people will lack integrity and moral courage but how much of a majority that is, I don’t know.
In Italy during WW2 it was OK to persecute Jews. Hitler wanted Mussolini to get more rigorous with rounding them up. Some were taken away to concentration camps yet many Italians did not take part and in fact helped to hide Jews. It was acceptable for them to round up Jews yet they didn’t. In France after the Nazi occupation you had Frenchmen helping to hand over Jews to the Germans. Of course France’s history with its Jews is not something to brag about. In the part of France that the Italians occupied they did not turn over Jews. It was acceptable for them to do it and the Germans expected them to but they refused, on moral grounds. There would have been no “legal” repercussions (at that time) had the Italians actively participated in the Holocaust yet they refused because of the moral repercussions.
Morocco had a large Jewish population during WW2 and they were told to start handing over their Jewish citizens but the king refused.
IMO, the Germans did not commit the atrocities they did because they were told it was OK, that there would be no repercussions, but because they wanted to, because they believed it was OK. Hitler didn’t make them hate the Jews, he merely took advantage of it. (Some)White men slaughtered the Indians in this country not because someone in the govt told them it was OK but because they already believed it was OK.
If raping women were no longer against the law I doubt you would see a rise in the number of rapists. Number of rapes, yes, because those who already rape (in spite of it being illegal) would be able to do so much easier. It won’t turn someone into a rapist though.
Again, IMO, people like to use the just following orders, everyone else was doing it, I was caught up in the mob’s madness, I was charmed, etc., excuses to pass the buck. It’s easier than looking inside yourself and accepting that there was/is something dark there. However, I don’t believe everyone has that darkness within them, at least not to the degree that they would engage in genocide or something. [/quote]
I said many not everyone but not to quibble. To your rape comment you really think if in some fantasy land rape was decriminalized there wouldn’t be more rapists? People will stand by and watch atrocities committed against the other they would never allow in their own tribe. Plenty of threads all over about the nazis and arabs but turnabout is fairplay right?
There are always 100’s of bystanders. There are fewer active participants certainly, but even less courageous men willing to take a stand. Are you less complicit simply watching someone get beaten, perhaps to death, instead of jumping in? Certainly, but it seems a fine distinction.
Hitler came around at the right time when things were bad in Germany and the people embraced him. He knew how to work the crowd to gain support, was indeed charming on one hand and a psychopath on the other. Germany was on the skids and he brought up their level of industrialization that still stands unmatched even today. Look at all the shit they made from 1936 to 1945. Anything from planes, jets even, weapons, rockets to coming close to producing a nuke.
I find the man fascinating on many fronts. How he was able to pull together an unparalled axis of evil was the dark side of his efforts. On the shortsighted side, the man was a megalomaniac that was not able to realize his limitations.
He definitely grossly mishandled the Jews. Instead of exterminating them, he would have been better off ruining them financially and putting them out of business gradually. The rest of Europe would have tended to support that effort.