Newspeak?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

“Unsurprisingly, the South shows the least approval of black-white intermarriage of any region of the country. And Republicans and conservatives are less approving of black-white intermarriage than Democrats, independents, moderates and liberals.”

I don’t form my opinions in these matters by listening to what my gut tells me. [/quote]

unsurprisingly, the data just happens to fit into the expectation.

Chicken or the egg?[/quote]

I’m not sure what you’re suggesting here. The data says exactly what it says, irrespective of any expectation, and the questions could not have been couched in simpler and more straightforward terms.

Unless the results were fabricated or tampered with. But that is a huge accusation and one which requires, to be taken seriously, serious evidence.

42

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

“Unsurprisingly, the South shows the least approval of black-white intermarriage of any region of the country. And Republicans and conservatives are less approving of black-white intermarriage than Democrats, independents, moderates and liberals.”

I don’t form my opinions in these matters by listening to what my gut tells me. [/quote]

unsurprisingly, the data just happens to fit into the expectation.

Chicken or the egg?[/quote]

I’m not sure what you’re suggesting here. The data says exactly what it says, irrespective of any expectation, and the questions could not have been couched in simpler and more straightforward terms.

[/quote]

I’m suggesting, people see what they want to see.

People want to see southern whites as racist (lets ignore the despise is quite frankly, abundantly mutual), so they see these results and scream “racist”.

Well, Vermont is only 1% black, but no one ever screams “that is racist, obviously white people in Vermont aren’t welcoming of blacks.”

43

Not the second poll didn’t say what the demographic makeup is.

That could significantly alter results, and conclusions drawn.

44

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

“Unsurprisingly, the South shows the least approval of black-white intermarriage of any region of the country. And Republicans and conservatives are less approving of black-white intermarriage than Democrats, independents, moderates and liberals.”

I don’t form my opinions in these matters by listening to what my gut tells me. [/quote]

unsurprisingly, the data just happens to fit into the expectation.

Chicken or the egg?[/quote]

I’m not sure what you’re suggesting here. The data says exactly what it says, irrespective of any expectation, and the questions could not have been couched in simpler and more straightforward terms.

[/quote]

I’m suggesting, people see what they want to see.

People want to see southern whites as racist (lets ignore the despise is quite frankly, abundantly mutual), so they see these results and scream “racist”.

Well, Vermont is only 1% black, but no one ever screams “that is racist, obviously white people in Vermont aren’t welcoming of blacks.” [/quote]

This is true, but what percentage of people in Vermont are flying confederate flags, driving trucks with confederate flags on it, listening to stuff like David Allan Coe from the 80’s, etc? We have plenty of that going on in my area, and all the local schools have kids who wear confederate flag stuff (not a huge amount of them) even in schools with some black kids.

I think on the whole most people would agree that those from a “stereotypical racist” mindset dwell more in certain parts of America.

Every area has racists and probably always will. I think what SMH is saying is that data would point to evidence to say more of them live in certain parts of America than others.

Hell how many kids in Vermont even know who David Allan Coe is let alone have listened to some of his early library which no one would argue about its racism? Not only did SOME people listen to that growing up in this area, some people still do.

45

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
I think this is a false equivalency that is being set up.

There is racism everywhere. There is racism in Queens, Beacon Hill, Montreal, Paris. There has most assuredly been racism on the International Space Station, at one point or another.

However, the data say that whites Americans in the Deep South are more racist and more often racist than, say, white Americans in Seattle, or white Americans in Massachusetts, or white Americans in New York, or white Americans in Buffalo, or white Americans in Hawaii.

Which, given that it’s been argued in this very thread that history is indeed important in understanding the present day, should come as a shock to exactly no one.[/quote]
One reason it appears that way is that in the North (or Paris) there is “unforced” segregation. A white, affluent Manhattanite can afford to be liberal on the subject of racism because he/she is separated from most blacks. Sure, he/she might have some black friends but they will be from the same socioeconomic class. Things like AA and welfare don’t matter because they won’t change things (as they really haven’t). That person will still be affluent and his children will have an excellent chance of duplicating or even surpassing his success. In other words, it’s hard to hate what is unfamiliar. Now, ask that person how he would feel if they were going to rent out apartments in his building to section 8 or build a housing project next door and you might see how they truly feel about race, among other things. This is the reason why I hate the liberal elite. They are benevolent, from a distance, and as long as they can still afford to buy coffee at Starbucks, drive an SUV and send their kids to private school.

[/quote]

Nail on the head.

Good post.

46

[quote]H factor wrote:

This is true, but what percentage of people in Vermont are flying confederate flags, driving trucks with confederate flags on it, listening to stuff like David Allan Coe from the 80’s, etc? We have plenty of that going on in my area, and all the local schools have kids who wear confederate flag stuff (not a huge amount of them) even in schools with some black kids.

[/quote]

Things are not always as they seem.

47

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

“Unsurprisingly, the South shows the least approval of black-white intermarriage of any region of the country. And Republicans and conservatives are less approving of black-white intermarriage than Democrats, independents, moderates and liberals.”

I don’t form my opinions in these matters by listening to what my gut tells me. [/quote]

unsurprisingly, the data just happens to fit into the expectation.

Chicken or the egg?[/quote]

I’m not sure what you’re suggesting here. The data says exactly what it says, irrespective of any expectation, and the questions could not have been couched in simpler and more straightforward terms.

[/quote]

I’m suggesting, people see what they want to see.

People want to see southern whites as racist (lets ignore the despise is quite frankly, abundantly mutual), so they see these results and scream “racist”.

Well, Vermont is only 1% black, but no one ever screams “that is racist, obviously white people in Vermont aren’t welcoming of blacks.” [/quote]

The data I’m offering is not remotely comparable to the inference that Vermonters are racist because blacks don’t live in Vermont.

There is no inference involved in, “Should interracial marriage be illegal?”

In other words, there is no seeing what one wants to see in the data I’m referencing (of which, by the way, there is much, much, much more, all of it pointing in but one direction).

Look, I don’t think you’re an anti-black racist, Beans, because you’re a conservative. I don’t think conservativism is a racist political ideology, and I don’t think the Republican Party platform is racist.

What I think is what I’ve said above, and it is supported by the evidence available, and it is the reasonable contention to adopt.

48

[quote]Carlo wrote:
One reason it appears that way is that in the North (or Paris) there is “unforced” segregation. A white, affluent Manhattanite can afford to be liberal on the subject of racism because he/she is separated from most blacks. Sure, he/she might have some black friends but they will be from the same socioeconomic class. Things like AA and welfare don’t matter because they won’t change things (as they really haven’t). That person will still be affluent and his children will have an excellent chance of duplicating or even surpassing his success. In other words, it’s hard to hate what is unfamiliar. Now, ask that person how he would feel if they were going to rent out apartments in his building to section 8 or build a housing project next door and you might see how they truly feel about race, among other things. This is the reason why I hate the liberal elite. They are benevolent, from a distance, and as long as they can still afford to buy coffee at Starbucks, drive an SUV and send their kids to private school.
[/quote]

I experienced more things that could have made me racist while living in Manhattan than in any other place I’ve been, including the most destitute townships of South Africa.

But, either way, the reasons are not what I’m talking about; I’m talking about the facts themselves, as best exposed by the data.

49

For the record, I am sure it is viscerally unpleasant to be presented with evidence that people who agree with you on political matters X, Y, and Z are also racist pieces of shit at a higher rate than people who disagree with you on those political matters X, Y, and Z. But, inherent ambiguity aside, this is the case, made clear by all of the evidence available.

The thing is, this doesn’t indict you, and it doesn’t indict X, Y, and Z.

What it does do is go a long way toward explaining why the perceptions are what they are, and how they interfere with victory on election day.

50

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

This is true, but what percentage of people in Vermont are flying confederate flags, driving trucks with confederate flags on it, listening to stuff like David Allan Coe from the 80’s, etc? We have plenty of that going on in my area, and all the local schools have kids who wear confederate flag stuff (not a huge amount of them) even in schools with some black kids.

[/quote]

Things are not always as they seem.
[/quote]

In this case, I think things are exactly as they seem. (They seem like Kanye is a tool.) : )

(I still love his music though.)

51

I don’t think one black rapper wearing a coat disregards anything I said in my post.

Other than proving Kanye West is a giant idiot who will literally do anything for attention, publicity, and sales.

Trust me, with most of the people in the areas I’m talking about things are EXACTLY as they seem.

I would never attempt to argue that racism isn’t prevalent all over, that only white people could be racist, etc. I didn’t attempt that in my post. Showing a guy in Vermont with a Confederate flag wouldn’t disregard my arguments. ’

52

[quote]H factor wrote:

I think on the whole most people would agree that those from a “stereotypical racist” mindset dwell more in certain parts of America.
[/quote]

Yes indeed. And they would say this because it is true. So far as anybody can tell from the evidence, anyway.

By the way, it matches up anecdotally for me as well. The three most racist–referring to any form of racism imaginable–people I’ve ever met were both white. One was South African, one was South Carolinian, one was from Baton Rouge.

53

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

The data I’m offering is not remotely comparable to the inference that Vermonters are racist because blacks don’t live in Vermont.

[/quote]

Ludacris.

It is an opinion poll correct?

54

[quote]H factor wrote:
I don’t think one black rapper wearing a coat disregards anything I said in my post.

[/quote]

No, and that wasn’t the intent.

Funny both you and smh, who are arguing there is no perception manipulation, missed that. (Here’s a hit, think in terms of “n-word”.)

Vermont has 1% of its population black, 5% non-white. Everyone thinks “hoe hmmm”. The area of the country with the most concentrated %'s of non-whites tend to show trends of racism (from opinion polls which apparently can only draw one conclusion), everyone thinks “white people in the south are racists.”

No one questions what those polls would show if Vermont was 25% black, no one asks why Vermont is 1% black… All they ask about, all they focus on, is the confirmation bias: “I believe most of the racists whites live in the south, therefore, it is good the data confirms this.”

55

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
For the record, I am sure it is viscerally unpleasant to be presented with evidence that people who agree with you on political matters X, Y, and Z are also racist pieces of shit at a higher rate than people who disagree with you on those political matters X, Y, and Z. But, inherent ambiguity aside, this is the case, made clear by all of the evidence available.

The thing is, this doesn’t indict you, and it doesn’t indict X, Y, and Z.

What it does do is go a long way toward explaining why the perceptions are what they are, and how they interfere with victory on election day.[/quote]

You’re missing the point, again.

And you are what the dude in the article was talking about.

56

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
In this case, I think things are exactly as they seem. (They seem like Kanye is a tool.) : )

(I still love his music though.)[/quote]

Said no one ever…

57

Familiarity breeds contempt.

58

Frankly, the idea that there isn’t a normal distribution of racism that spans political allegiance and geography, but rather is concentrated in one party and one area of the country, argued by intelligent, thoughtful people is, in and of itself, perfect evidence of the entire point of the article.

59

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
I don’t think one black rapper wearing a coat disregards anything I said in my post.

[/quote]

No, and that wasn’t the intent.

Funny both you and smh, who are arguing there is no perception manipulation, missed that. (Here’s a hit, think in terms of “n-word”.)

Vermont has 1% of its population black, 5% non-white. Everyone thinks “hoe hmmm”. The area of the country with the most concentrated %'s of non-whites tend to show trends of racism (from opinion polls which apparently can only draw one conclusion), everyone thinks “white people in the south are racists.”

No one questions what those polls would show if Vermont was 25% black, no one asks why Vermont is 1% black… All they ask about, all they focus on, is the confirmation bias: “I believe most of the racists whites live in the south, therefore, it is good the data confirms this.”
[/quote]

I’m not sure I’m arguing the same thing SMH says, I only have two posts in this. You brought up Vermont and I compared it to the areas of Kansas I’m familiar with having lived here most of my life.

I have not said that I think most of the racist whites live in the south (hell, my arguments were from Kansas which isn’t in the South) or anything of that nature. I was merely thinking out loud about the average Vermont racist vs. the average KS racist.

Obviously some of it is a perception thing, but how am I supposed to perceive a guy driving an old pickup with a confederate flag hat on, confederate flag bumper stickers, listening to David Allan Coe while spitting tobacco juice into a bottle? Is my mind inventing that that guy probably is racist? I’m not arguing that Vermont doesn’t have anyone who fits that bill. Again I’ve said EVERY area has racists. I just think in some places it is more socially acceptable than others.

Please don’t lump SMH and me in the same category on this, because I haven’t been paying attention to his arguments and they may not necessarily be mine.

60

Now we’re getting somewhere

[quote]H factor wrote:

Obviously some of it is a perception thing, but how am I supposed to perceive a guy driving an old pickup with a confederate flag hat on, confederate flag bumper stickers, listening to David Allan Coe while spitting tobacco juice into a bottle? Is my mind inventing that that guy probably is racist? [/quote]

And, I would agree with your perception of that individual. I would also agree with the assumption that he likely votes “R”. (As in looks at a ballot and checks off all the people with an “R” next to the name.)

Would I be correct? Likely. But am I correct because he lives in KS or because we think he is a racist? One tribe, which is the current culture leader, tells us over and over, it is the latter, not the former.

That is the problem, that is the issue. We don’t expect to see “normal” distribution of what we are told is “abnormal” behavior. (Human history suggests “racism” isn’t really all that abnormal, nor exclusive to any race or culture.)

Which leads into the whole idea of the allegiance to the tribe, and the twisting and turning of perception to make sure you end up on top (or put the other side down enough to feel superior.)

We’re told what happened didn’t happen or didn’t matter, we’re told what to see, we’re fed data that suggests what we want it to. We look for what we want to find, not what is there.

Right, and social acceptance isn’t a vacuum either.

I don’t think being racist should be socially acceptable, and it isn’t where I live, openly. But it sure is in practice.

I’ve had someone who 5 mins earlier was talking about how he can’t take southern people serious because they are racist, complain he didn’t like shopping in Southern New Hampshire, because “there are so many Indians and they are so damn cheap.”

Now… You’re telling me, if we suddenly had an influx of Indian immigration, this proud democrat wouldn’t suddenly have a significant issue with that?