[quote]jre67t wrote:
How about reparations for gays?
[/quote]
Were homosexuals uprooted from their motherland, sold into slavery and then systematically oppressed for 400 years? The answer is no. J Edgar Hoover, who put the hit on MLK was a closeted homosexual. Closeted white homosexuals like Hoover, can appear indistinguishable from white heterosexuals. Black folks could never be “in the closet” from white racists.[/quote]
So because blacks have historically suffered more than gays, it’s ok to discriminate against gays?
[quote]method_man wrote:
What else that’s a joke, is that it’s to the point where a black guy like me apparently cannot even use a term that rhymes with maggot that begins with an f on a fucking muscle board. Especially since in hip hop culture it just refers to weak or limp-wristed men. Give me a break comparing blacks to gays. You are born black and pretty much choose to act on your sexual impulses. [/quote]
You can choose your sexual behavior.
You can’t choose your sexual orientation.
Race is similar to sexual orientation in that regard, not to sexual behavior.
[quote]jre67t wrote:
How about reparations for gays?
[/quote]
Were homosexuals uprooted from their motherland, sold into slavery and then systematically oppressed for 400 years? The answer is no. J Edgar Hoover, who put the hit on MLK was a closeted homosexual. Closeted white homosexuals like Hoover, can appear indistinguishable from white heterosexuals. Black folks could never be “in the closet” from white racists.[/quote]
So because blacks have historically suffered more than gays, it’s ok to discriminate against gays?[/quote]
It is okay to discriminate against gays, blacks, hippies, people who stink…we do it all the time. But government can’t.
Being discriminating means that you make a choice and choose something you think to be better. Gov’t outlaws doing so for housing, jobs, and the like.
[quote]jre67t wrote:
How about reparations for gays?
[/quote]
Were homosexuals uprooted from their motherland, sold into slavery and then systematically oppressed for 400 years? The answer is no. J Edgar Hoover, who put the hit on MLK was a closeted homosexual. Closeted white homosexuals like Hoover, can appear indistinguishable from white heterosexuals. Black folks could never be “in the closet” from white racists.[/quote]
So because blacks have historically suffered more than gays, it’s ok to discriminate against gays?[/quote]
Lefties have historically suffered more than gays. Smokers are treated worse than gays. Parents are discriminated against more than gays. Jews are STILL discriminated against more than gays. More Churches are burned down due to arson than gay bars. Discrimination is always to someone’s detriment and, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.
[quote]jre67t wrote:
How about reparations for gays?
[/quote]
Were homosexuals uprooted from their motherland, sold into slavery and then systematically oppressed for 400 years? The answer is no. J Edgar Hoover, who put the hit on MLK was a closeted homosexual. Closeted white homosexuals like Hoover, can appear indistinguishable from white heterosexuals. Black folks could never be “in the closet” from white racists.[/quote]
So because blacks have historically suffered more than gays, it’s ok to discriminate against gays?[/quote]
Lefties have historically suffered more than gays. Smokers are treated worse than gays. Parents are discriminated against more than gays. Jews are STILL discriminated against more than gays. More Churches are burned down due to arson than gay bars. Discrimination is always to someone’s detriment and, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.[/quote]
[quote]jre67t wrote:
How about reparations for gays?
[/quote]
Were homosexuals uprooted from their motherland, sold into slavery and then systematically oppressed for 400 years? The answer is no. J Edgar Hoover, who put the hit on MLK was a closeted homosexual. Closeted white homosexuals like Hoover, can appear indistinguishable from white heterosexuals. Black folks could never be “in the closet” from white racists.[/quote]
So because blacks have historically suffered more than gays, it’s ok to discriminate against gays?[/quote]
Lefties have historically suffered more than gays. Smokers are treated worse than gays. Parents are discriminated against more than gays. Jews are STILL discriminated against more than gays. More Churches are burned down due to arson than gay bars. Discrimination is always to someone’s detriment and, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.[/quote]
It’s not about who has suffered more. It’s about who has suffered
unnecessarily and what can be done to correct it.
If you actually care to educate yourself, listen to the CDC:
[quote]Homophobia, stigma, and discrimination persist in the United
States and negatively affect the health and well-being of gay,
bisexual, other men who have sex with men (MSM), and other members of
the LGBT community. Homophobia, stigma, and discrimination are social
determinants of health that can affect physical and mental health,
whether MSM seek and are able to obtain health services, and the
quality of the services they receive. Such barriers to health need to
be addressed at different levels of society, such as health care
settings, work places, and schools in order to increase opportunities
for improving the health of MSM.
Homophobia and stigma persist in the United States even though
acceptance of same-sex relationships has been steadily increasing. For
example, a Gallup poll conducted in May 2010 found that more than half
(52%) of Americans believed that gay and lesbian relationships were
acceptable. Forty-three percent of Americans believed that gay and
lesbian relationships are not morally acceptable.
The Effects of Negative Attitudes About Homosexuality
Negative attitudes about homosexuality can lead to rejection by
friends and family, discriminatory acts and violence that harm
specific individuals, and laws and policies that adversely affect the
lives of many people; this can have damaging effects on the health of
MSM and other sexual minorities. Homophobia, stigma and discrimination
can:
Limit MSM’s ability to access high quality health care that is
responsive to health issues of MSM
Affect income, employment status, and the ability to get and keep
health insurance
Contribute to poor mental health and unhealthy behaviors, such as
substance abuse, risky sexual behaviors, and suicide attempts
Affect MSM’s ability to establish and maintain long-term same-sex
relationships that reduce HIV & STD risk
Make it difficult for some MSM to be open about same-sex behaviors
with others, which can increase stress, limit social support, and
negatively affect health
The effects of homophobia, stigma and discrimination can be especially
hard on adolescents and young adults. Young MSM and other sexual
minorities are at increased risk of being bullied in school. They are
also at risk of being rejected by their families and, as a result, are
at increased risk of homelessness. A study published in 2009 compared
gay, lesbian, and bisexual young adults who experienced strong
rejection from their families with their peers who had more supportive
families. The researchers found that those who experienced stronger
rejection were:
8.4 times more likely to have tried to commit suicide
5.9 times more likely to report high levels of depression
3.4 times more likely to use illegal drugs
3.4 times more likely to have risky sex
Reducing the Effects of Stigma and Discrimination
MSM and their family and friends can take steps to reduce the effects
of homophobia, stigma and discrimination and protect their physical
and mental health. One way to cope with the stress from stigma and
discrimination is social support. Some studies show that gay men who
have good social support - from family, friends, and the wider gay
community - have:
higher self-esteem,
a more positive group identity, and
more positive mental health.
Whether you are gay or straight, you can help reduce homophobia,
stigma and discrimination in your community and decrease the negative
health effects. Even small things can make a difference, such as
supporting a family member, friend, co-worker.[/quote]
Race is similar to sexual orientation in that regard, not to sexual behavior.[/quote]
I can do absurd logical prestidigitation like that too! Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat;
You can choose to murder.
You can’t choose your predisposition to violence.
Race and sexual orientation is similar to predisposition to violence in that regard, not to murder.
You can choose to drink.
You can’t choose to be an alcoholic.
Race, sexual orientation, and predisposition to violence are similar to alcoholism in that regard, not to drinking.
You can choose to run.
You can’t choose to be a rabbit.
Race, sexual orientation, predisposition to violence, and alcoholism are similar to being a rabbit in that regard, not to running.
Sometimes, I wish my brain turned off too.[/quote]
I didn’t say it was the only similarity shared by race and sexual orientation, just that his logic was flawed because he framed it in terms of sexual behavior.
Unlike your straw men, race and sexual orientation share the additional commonalities of not being inherently harmful to society, and/or being the subject of longstanding social discrimination and violence.
It’s not about who has suffered more. It’s about who has suffered
unnecessarily and what can be done to correct it.[/quote]
Quit sugar coating it, it’s about establishing rules to make people feel better. ‘Correct it’ implies some sense of equality, right and wrong, morality, and some essence of weightedness. You asserting that “it’s not about who suffered more.” shows that you don’t give a shit about actual oppression and actual crime, you just care about the perception of oppression (real or not) of homosexuals. I’m not exaggerating, you dismissed arson and anti-semitism in favor of Gay Marriage.
I do listen to the CDC, I acknowledge that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice akin to smoking (except smokers stop whining when they get a cigarette), and much like smoking, it is a poor lifestyle choice minimized and best avoided if possible;
I can go on, but it’s really rehashing the obvious. The CDC is a rather narrow slice, foreign health services, and the WHO paint a similar picture for the Western World. Pretty much if forced rape isn’t the major sexual act responsible for spreading STI’s in any given country, it’s a homosexual (usu. MSM) act.
What’s worse (relative to this discussion), your citation doesn’t establish anything to do with Gay Marriage reducing homophobia (actually, somewhat the opposite) and that subsequently reducing homosexual suicide and/or mental maladies. There is plenty of data that actually shows these correlations you imply to be untrue. You seem to think that homosexuality, depression, and risky sexual behavior are each unique entities, when in actuality they tend to be more associated than not. Secondarily, despite your asserted independence of homosexuality and depression, you assert that social acceptance of one will affect the other. Even in more open cultures where Gay Marriage and absolute equality has been the same for more than a decade, homosexual men tend to commit suicide more often and married homosexual men attempt and/or commit suicide at a higher rate than heterosexual men. Historically, even in cultures where homosexuality was openly practiced and freely accepted in all social classes for centuries, the practice of homosexuality was held in lower regard to the formation of a family and reproduction. India, Iran, China all of these places are and were largely free from Christian influence and Western-Style traditional marriage, at best, all of them hold a much lower regard for homosexuals than the US. I’m also not illiterate, I understand the ‘Gay Uncle’ hypothesis, given other evidence, I don’t consider it to be valid as I don’t believe sexual orientation to be genetically determined. What is interesting about the ‘Gay Uncle’ hypothesis is that, once again, non-maliciously looking at facts, data, and evidence, we find homosexuals in hypothesized into a secondary social role similar to worker bees.
I’m not naive enough to assert that homosexuality is the cause or sole symptom of a mental disease, but if you can assert that a homosexual can be conditioned into assuming the heirs of a heterosexual and suffer mental maladies because of it, there’s no reason to presume a heterosexual couldn’t be conditioned in the opposite manner and suffer the same malady. The trouble is, even established scientists and mental health professionals can’t utter homosexual and mental disease in the same sentence without suffering severe sociopolitical recourse.
Personally, the worst part about the whole thing is that much like my gay family members who don’t want to admit that it might be a good idea to have an anal pap done once in awhile or to spend some time at home rather than sleeping with strangers. You want to ignore what might actually be a problem, pretend you’re a grotesquely suffering victim, and wish for things to be better.
I didn’t say it was the only similarity shared by race and sexual orientation, just that his logic was flawed because he framed it in terms of sexual behavior.[/quote]
I didn’t say it wasn’t the only similarity either. I said it wasn’t a similarity at all. Aligning two broad or tangentially relevant characteristics of two different things doesn’t make them similar;
A square has a side, a circle has a side, so squares and circles are similar?
A house has an inside, a person has an inside, so houses and people are similar?
You’re seeing only what you want to see. Being a rabbit is by no means detrimental to society. A predisposition to violence is hardly detrimental to society, our country and several others were made and are kept free by people with a predisposition to violence.
PWI is awesome. Another thread about Teh (horrible, horrible) Gheyz. Ya all couldn’t just pop this stuff on the end of one of the other ones we’ve got going now? Personally, I like the “gay married” one myself.
I realize the information I provided from the CDC was extensive, so will give you the benefit of the doubt if you didn’t read It all.
This isn’t directed to you in particular. I really, really wish people would stop cherry picking statistics from the CDC without looking at everything the CDC has to say about homosexuality, including the CAUSES for many of the negative outcomes experienced by gays and the SOLUTIONS to addressing those negative outcomes.
The CDC DOES NOT RECOMMEND THAT GAYS TRY TO CHANGE THEIR ORIENTATION. They realize this is counterproductive, and indeed is one of the primary causes for these negative outcomes.
Instead, the CDC STRONGLY RECOMMENDS THAT SOCIETY ACCEPT AND ENCOURAGE HEALTHY SAME SEX RELATIONSHIPS.
Please read the following and let me know your thoughts. I tried to reduce it to the most important parts, but provided the link in case you want to read the entire CDC statement.
[quote]Homophobia, stigma, and discrimination persist in the United
States and negatively affect the health and well-being of gay,
bisexual, other men who have sex with men (MSM), and other members of
the LGBT community…
Homophobia, stigma and discrimination
can:
Limit MSM’s ability to access high quality health care that is
responsive to health issues of MSM
Affect income, employment status, and the ability to get and keep
health insurance
Contribute to poor mental health and unhealthy behaviors, such as
substance abuse, risky sexual behaviors, and suicide attempts
Affect MSM’s ability to establish and maintain long-term same-sex
relationships that reduce HIV & STD risk
Make it difficult for some MSM to be open about same-sex behaviors
with others, which can increase stress, limit social support, and
negatively affect health…
The researchers found that those who experienced stronger
rejection were:
8.4 times more likely to have tried to commit suicide
5.9 times more likely to report high levels of depression
3.4 times more likely to use illegal drugs
3.4 times more likely to have risky sex…
MSM and their family and friends can take steps to reduce the effects
of homophobia, stigma and discrimination and protect their physical
and mental health. One way to cope with the stress from stigma and
discrimination is social support. Some studies show that gay men who
have good social support - from family, friends, and the wider gay
community - have:
higher self-esteem,
a more positive group identity, and
more positive mental health.
Whether you are gay or straight, you can help reduce homophobia,
stigma and discrimination in your community and decrease the negative
health effects. Even small things can make a difference, such as
supporting a family member, friend, co-worker.[/quote]
I realize the information I provided from the CDC was extensive, so will give you the benefit of the doubt if you didn’t read It all.[/quote]
I’ve read it and more. It’s an extraordinarily naive person that believes that the CDC doesn’t attempt social experimentation and isn’t, at least in part, a political mouthpiece.
I really, really wish people would stop cherry picking statistics. I also really, really wish people would stop presenting facts and solutions together as though they are both known. Especially hypothetical solutions. You pointed at one announcement relating strictly to anti-homophobia. I pointed at several related to STDs, IMO, several pages and STDs represents the jurisdiction of the CDC much more than one page and homophobia. The CDC is one of a myriad of health organizations in one of a myriad of socio-religio-sexual environments. Looking at one report from just the CDC is like looking at one page of the PWI and making inferences about the T-Nation as a whole.
Clearly conversion can and does happen (it’s so prevalent they have a term for it);
Pretty clearly the outcome was positive. So, why the knee-jerk, overreacting refusal to something that no one proposed? Maybe because it violates your belief system? I’ve witnessed, first-hand, the reverse (reverse the sexual orientation, happiness, and family) of the news story above, are you telling me it’s a bad idea to encourage someone to get back to a time in their life when they were happily married, family-oriented, less promiscuous, and, coincidentally, heterosexual? I should support them in their misery, isolation, and homosexual promiscuity?
It’s funny that the CDC-representative would nod yes vigorously at a ‘change in mood or behavior’ being a symptom of heat stroke, depression, drug abuse, mental instability, psychological degeneration, stress and anxiety, etc., etc. And nod yes vigorously to virtually any mood or behavior under the sun, but recoil horribly at the idea that converting between hetero/homo and asexual MIGHT represent a change in mood or behavior.
Why? Does the CDC have any studies or data suggesting that encouraging homosexuals to be less risky is effective? Their own evidence would show that despite their AIDS/HIV education and prevention programs homosexuals continue to spread HIV (as well as other STIs). Additionally, some of the statistics I quoted are socially agnostic, leaving open the idea that some of these relationships and acts are inherently more risky. It’s foolish to think that heterosexual men will suffer throat and anal cancer in a manner similar to homosexual men and that social support will affect it one iota.
I know you like to read only the CDC’s ‘current administration approved’ public statements, but they are not the be-all, end-all source of human knowledge.
[quote]Please read the following and let me know your thoughts. I tried to reduce it to the most important parts, but provided the link in case you want to read the entire CDC statement.
Homophobia, stigma, and discrimination persist in the United
States and negatively affect the health and well-being of gay,
bisexual, other men who have sex with men (MSM), and other members of
the LGBT community…[/quote]
As I pointed out they persist everywhere and throughout time. The CDC tends to limit themselves to their ‘here and now’ jurisdiction. Additionally, (as you exemplified) the current political climate forbids even loose association of homosexuality with mental illness you can’t consider things like, some percentage of homosexuals being conditioned into homosexuality through physical abuse, social isolation, or other methods that are known to plasticize moral and social norms. The above two together leaves the CDC unable to fully study social behavior in a nation of Christian values and violent crime like the US and compare it to other values and other societies where the homosexuals “don’t exist” and therefor don’t commit suicide.
[quote]Homophobia, stigma and discrimination
can:
Limit MSM’s ability to access high quality health care that is
responsive to health issues of MSM[/quote]
Any data supporting this such as wait times, doctor refusals/referrals, consistently inferior treatments? Or is the CDC overstepping their bounds on anecdotal data? Given the prevalence of homosexuals as well as the secular and diverse nature of healthcare, I find it hard to believe that homosexuals being denied access to “high quality” healthcare in any way. As I said, my experience has been the opposite, homosexuals choose not to heed the medical advice and services offered to them much like smokers and drug addicts.
[quote]- Affect income, employment status, and the ability to get and keep
health insurance[/quote]
Census data would suggest the opposite in terms of income. Employment status oriented around sexual orientation is already legally actionable, and, given statistics health insurers conditionally discriminating against homosexuals is not the worst idea. Until recently health insurance was a private institution in this country.
[quote]- Contribute to poor mental health and unhealthy behaviors, such as
substance abuse, risky sexual behaviors, and suicide attempts[/quote]
The evidence I see suggests the opposite association. Moreover, when you put oppressed homosexuals and mental health up against other oppressed minorities and their mental health, the associations (between race and sexuality) that you paint with broad strokes become more nuanced.
[quote]- Affect MSM’s ability to establish and maintain long-term same-sex
relationships that reduce HIV & STD risk[/quote]
Again, any evidence or just hypothesizing?
[quote]- Make it difficult for some MSM to be open about same-sex behaviors
with others, which can increase stress, limit social support, and
negatively affect health…
The researchers found that those who experienced stronger
rejection were:
8.4 times more likely to have tried to commit suicide
5.9 times more likely to report high levels of depression
3.4 times more likely to use illegal drugs
3.4 times more likely to have risky sex…
MSM and their family and friends can take steps to reduce the effects
of homophobia, stigma and discrimination and protect their physical
and mental health. One way to cope with the stress from stigma and
discrimination is social support. Some studies show that gay men who
have good social support - from family, friends, and the wider gay
community - have:
higher self-esteem,
a more positive group identity, and
more positive mental health.
Whether you are gay or straight, you can help reduce homophobia,
stigma and discrimination in your community and decrease the negative
health effects. Even small things can make a difference, such as
supporting a family member, friend, co-worker.[/quote]
Understandably, a coddling environment makes people feel better, but you/they miss (or conveniently don’t convey) the larger picture of if a coddling environment actually fixes things. Moreover, there’s no evidence of how or how effectively.
You’re challenging the integrity of the conclusions and recommendations made by the CDC, based on “the evidence I see”. Who is more likely to be correct, you or them? You say they are overstepping their bounds, when in fact it is their professional responsibility to address issues related to public health and well-being.
Furthermore, it’s not only the CDC that is making these recommendations. Literally every major health organization, from the American Medical Association to the American Academy of Pediatrics to the Surgeon General to the American Psychiatric Association to the National Association of Social Workers, based on 35 years of research on homosexuality, has drawn the exact same conclusions. Every major health organization agrees with them, without exception.
So again, who is more likely to be right? You or them?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Lucasa, listen to yourself.[/quote]
I can hear myself, you can’t seem to hear me. I asked a question about a happy, heterosexual, family-oriented individual who has become alienated from their family and become a promiscuous homosexual, and asked your advice. Should I encourage them to get back to their previous lifestyle or just make sure that they say they’re using prophylactics? Because while it’s nice to blindly adhere to the CDC’s conflicting recommendations in theory, I’d like to know what you think in the when you can’t and it’s a “help them continue alienating themselves” (lose) or “Defy the almighty CDC.” (lose) situation.
While it might be convenient for you to boil the question down to “ME or them”, the question, if there is only one, is far more nuanced; you and others might actually be forced to use your brains. Personally, I actually have several questions whereby the CDC’s statements, or statements and actions, conflict. Both internally and with other organizations of equal or greater integrity. I wonder how the CDC claims AIDs to be a ‘gay disease’ in 1981, then proceeds to disagree with that statement for the next three decades. I can see how they may’ve made a mistake early on and that it’s really not a gay disease, but then in the last decade several LGBT organizations declare AIDS to be a gay disease (putting it up on billboards even). Nearly thirty years after the CDC declared HIV to be a gay disease, the WHO ALSO declares HIV to be a gay epidemic. How can so many entirely unaffiliated organizations from both or relatively neutral sides of the issue agree with the CDC when the CDC says it was wrong?
[quote]Furthermore, it’s not only the CDC that is making these recommendations. Literally every major health organization, from the American Medical Association to the American Academy of Pediatrics to the Surgeon General to the American Psychiatric Association to the National Association of Social Workers, based on 35 years of research on homosexuality, has drawn the exact same conclusions. Every major health organization agrees with them, without exception.
So again, who is more likely to be right? You or them?[/quote]
For the last decade, the CDC has failed to curtail an actual spread of an actual infectious disease (several actually) in the MSM community. Evidence would suggest that despite a decade of funding and study they can’t quite predict the MSM mindset as well as they’d like people to believe and that their social engineering prowess could stand a little honing. Only the most careless of scientists would wholly deny the opportunity that they could be wrong or that their suggestions should be applied blindly across the board to all cases.
Additionally, the organizations you named, believed very different things about homosexuality as little as 10 years ago. Why? What made them so right then that would lead one to believe that they are so wrong now (and vice versa)? Why do some of the most damning statements they made 20 yrs. ago, they, and other organization, stand by or even repeat today? Why the seeming steadfastness in clarifying and classifying certain self-destructive behavior as a mental disease and not others? What changed?
I know you’re a hardcore creationist, but pretend for a minute that the totality of human knowledge didn’t spring into existence at the behest of the CDC and the AMA five years ago. It’s nice to dismiss this change as a secular shift and a diminish in the Church’s influence, but this and similar perceptions exist outside the Church’s jurisdiction in both time and space.
BTW- In a question of who might be right, the individual or the government. My answer generally hasn’t changed in the last two decades.
I can only answer your first question from my own experience. I was, from all external appearances, a happy, heterosexual, family-oriented individual for many years. I fathered two children and was living the American dream. But I wasn’t truly happy; deep inside I knew that I was living a lie, and I never felt that people knew, loved, or accepted the real me. I could have chosen to stay on that path for the sake of appearances, but I knew that if I did so, a core part of myself would never be given a chance at life. Appearances can be deceiving.
Does that mean your family member is better off living a sexually irresponsible life? Of course not. My advice is for him/her to live honestly, but also to live responsibly. They can find love that fulfills them at every level, unlike in their marriage, but as with any healthy relationship, they must pay the price to honor, nurture, and sustain that relationship.
The CDC has concluded what every other major health organization has concluded, based on 35 years of research. They know that statistically, social discrimination significantly contributes to high suicide rates, drug abuse, and sexually irresponsible behavior in the gay community. Gay kids raised by loving, accepting parents do FAR better than kids raised by judgmental, unaccepting parents. That is a statistical fact. There’s nothing inherently damaging about being gay, as long as society provides the same support mechanisms that it provides for heterosexuals.
When the health organizations first began researching homosexuality, their research was limited to gays that were in therapy. It was a biased sample that didn’t represent the general gay population, so the initial conclusions were commensurately biased. When the research expanded to include a truly representative sample, the health organizations realized that homosexuality is not a mental illness, and that people could live rich, meaningful, productive lives as gay men and women. 35 years of solid research bears this out.
The studies don’t lie. When you correlate parental attitudes toward homosexuality with health outcomes for their gay children, the correlation is statistically significant, beyond chance. This isn’t the result of bias, and indeed the design precludes any possibility of bias. The results speak for themselves.
Multiply that by every single major health organization drawing exactly the same conclusions, and the evidence is overwhelming. Needless to say, their conclusions are IDENTICAL to my own conclusions, based on everything I have personally experienced as a gay man, and have observed with hundreds of gay friends and family members.
The science is crystal clear, for people willing to listen and genuinely learn with an open mind.
I can only answer your first question from my own experience. I was, from all external appearances, a happy, heterosexual, family-oriented individual for many years. I fathered two children and was living the American dream. But I wasn’t truly happy; deep inside I knew that I was living a lie, and I never felt that people knew, loved, or accepted the real me. I could have chosen to stay on that path for the sake of appearances, but I knew that if I did so, a core part of myself would never be given a chance at life. Appearances can be deceiving.
[/quote]
Sounds like the plot from the movie ‘Far From Heaven’.
You a screenwriter, FL?
The other night, the news had film of gay men kissing on the courthouse steps in NY. I couldn’t even look at that shit. Seriously, men do that to each other? Those people need to be put in mental hospitals; only people with very serious mental issues would think of doing things like that.
Next we’ll see vids of people sitting down on the courthouse steps eating buckets of shit and proclaiming their right to eat buckets of shit on the courthouse steps. Jesus…
Race is similar to sexual orientation in that regard, not to sexual behavior.[/quote]
I can do absurd logical prestidigitation like that too! Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat;
You can choose to murder.
You can’t choose your predisposition to violence.
Race and sexual orientation is similar to predisposition to violence in that regard, not to murder.
You can choose to drink.
You can’t choose to be an alcoholic.
Race, sexual orientation, and predisposition to violence are similar to alcoholism in that regard, not to drinking.
You can choose to run.
You can’t choose to be a rabbit.
Race, sexual orientation, predisposition to violence, and alcoholism are similar to being a rabbit in that regard, not to running.
Sometimes, I wish my brain turned off too.[/quote]
It looks like your wish came true.
You are born into your race period. There is no way to possibly disguise it. White homosexuals do not have to disclose their sexual orientation at a job interview. Black people can not cover up their race to a racist interviewer.
They can find love that fulfills them at every level[/quote]
Not necessarily true. Lots of people starve to death unloved, daily.
When did I say that they didn’t find their marriage fulfilling? I just said it ended. As far as you know, I’m talking about a widower who is walking away from his children to be a gay prostitute. Good work on jumping to conclusions.
What price would that be? You can walk in and out of a marriage (NOW ACROSS SEXUAL PREFERENCES!) at will. This is my biggest irritation with the whole issue.
You, again, present two issues as though they were one and make a foregone conclusion over something that isn’t really all that well studied or understood (‘statistically significant’ originated with scurvy, we don’t do significance tests on scurvy anymore). You act as though social support erases the suicide rates, drug abuse, and promiscuous behavior in the gay community when in fact the data says they assuage it at best. You say children of intolerant parents fare worse than accepting ones. No shit, Jewish parents have been disappointed in their sons who become butchers instead of doctors for millenia. They don’t hang themselves over it. Moreover, the studies, here and abroad, still show disparities. You’re presenting a marginally effective treatment as a cure and giving those looking for a scapegoat a ready-made excuse. There’s plenty of CDC data that shows the acts that even responsible homosexuals engage in are the most risky and more data (not CDC) that shows even committed homosexuals are still more promiscuous. I’m not in favor of violating anyone’s existing rights, that includes individuals who want to live their own lives and their parents that want to be disappointed in them for whatever reason.