New Training Questions

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]NumbInfinity wrote:
Christian,

given the goal is to build as much muscle as possible. (as its nearly always…)
given S/O isnt a total newbie, has some regeneration abilitys and uses good form on the exercises.

And if Im right about that:

1. The excentric movement causes the most muscle damage.
2. S/O is the strongest in lowering the weight(excentric again).
3. S/O can use the SSC to move some of the weight(especially at sticking points;i.e. the bottom of the benchpress)
4. the SSC is decreased for about 60% when taking 1sec. of a stop

Then what do you think about these two possible reps/tempos?
What whould you prefer?
(Just an example, as exercises isnt that much important right now)

A1
Acromial Bench FG 4x6-8 , 30X0 ; 60’
A2
Chinup, close 4x6-8 , 30X1 ; 60’

Pro:
more powerdevelopment (cause of SSC) ?
you go to momentary muscle failure each time

con:
you use lower weight?
SSC makes it easier for the muscles?

OR

A1
Acromial Bench FG 4x4 , 51X0 ; 60’
A2
Chinup, close 4x4 , 51X1 ; 60’

Pro:
slower excentric does more muscle tissue damage (bigger growth response)?
cause you spend most time in the strongest direction you can use more weight?
you dont have that much a SSC, and are so using more of your “real strength”?

con:
lesser power development (but wich mustnt equal lesser force development,right?)?
anything else thats con?

I hope you can see what I meant.
What do you think?

Thanks beforehand.[/quote]

Yes more damage is caused by the eccentric portion than during the concentric portion. But the turnaround point in a SSC exercise (point where you sharply stop the downward movement to shift into lifting phase) is probably where the potential for micro-trauma is the greatest.

Furthermore, just because the eccentric phase is where most of the damage occurs (the turnaround point being included in the eccentric phase) it doesn’t necessarily means that slow eccentrics will be more effective in causing micro-trauma.

The eccentric phase also respond to overload, so a slow eccentric (let’s say 4-5 seconds) with less weight might not be more effectice at causing micro-trauma than a normal one (2 seconds or so) performed with more weight.

To cause micro-trauma the eccentric must be performed in a state where muscle tension is as high as possible. And muscle tension is proportional to force production, so if doing the eccentric slowly means that you must use less weight, then it is probably not worth it.

That having been said, I still recommend being in control of the weight, just not to lower it slowly on purpose, unless one is using special techniques where the eccentric load is very high.

Oh yeah, I don’t like giving tempo prescriptions. It’s just plain dumb to assume that during a grueling set one will be able to maintain the prescribed tempo. Furthermore if one is focusing on counting the tempo or following it, there is no way that the lifting performance will be optimal.

Tempo prescription is one of those things that coaches use to seem more important than they really are.

Yeah, in the past I used them, before I knew better.

[Mouldsie]

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
live_to_lift wrote:
live_to_lift wrote:
CT,

Here are the facts:

1.) Time-demanding profession (City Manager); M-F 8-?pm and a 45-minute commute each way
2.) Married w/ 2 small children under the age of 3
3.) Literally only have 1 hour 5 days a week MAX to train
4.) Fatloss is #1 goal (and not lose too much LMB along th way, obviously)
5.) Lower back issues which preclude me from performing several “money” lifts (i.e. back squats, heavy shoulder presses, non-supported rows, etc.)
6.) 210-215 lbs. w/ approx. 16% bodyfat

I’m at a loss on how to structure my weekly training routine in context of these facts. How many days should I train with weights? ESW? (I’m following your nutritional recommendations from your Refined Physique Transformation article.)

Any ideas? (stupid question, I know)

Thank you.

Since I’ve not received a response before those who posted questions after me have, it begs the question: Was this a stupid question, a type of question CT has answered earlier, a question that wasn’t technical enough or all of the above? LOL

Screw it. I’ll figure it out.

5 hours a week is plenty of time. You could lift on days 1, 3, 5 and do some ESW on days 2 & 4.

Can you do lunges? I currently have a facet dysfunction (sprain) at L-5 but my PT has cleared me for both stationary and walking lunges. This is helping me at least maintain lower body and walking lunges are great for raising heart rate.

You could use circuits to make the most of your time. From experience, I know these will fit into an hour with about 1 minute rests between sets (gives you at least 2 minutes between movements in the A group). Again, I can usually do this in an hour with about 8 sets for each movement in the A1-A3 circuit (3 warm-ups, 5 working) and 4-5 sets for the B circuit (pretty much warmed up from A circuit).

Workout A:
A1: Lunges
A2: OHP
A3: Pull-ups
B1: curls
B2: skull crushers / close grip press
C: some kind of ab work (planks, roll-outs, etc).

Workout B:
A1: Lunges
A2: Bench press (incline or flat)
A3: DB Row or another “low row” movement
B1: Side lateral raises, front raises
B2: Rear delt row or lateral raise
C: some kind of ab work (planks, roll-outs, etc).

You could keep repeating A/B/A/B or make a C that includes more leg work:

Workout C:
A1: Leg extension
A2: Leg curls
B1: Assistance 1 (eg: calves?)
B2: Assistance 2
C: some kind of ab work (planks, roll-outs, etc).

This is a lot of upper body stuff, but I’m assuming that not being able to squat or deadlift is temporary and you’re only trying to maintain lower body.

For days 2 & 4, ESW. You could do tabata on a stationary bike. That would be pretty quick and give you a lot of bang for your time.

Of course you need to clean up your diet and manage your carbs, which it sounds like you’re already trying to do.

Oh, just noticed you can’t do heavy shoulder presses. Is that standing only? Can you do seated military press? That’s what I’m doing now, seated.

I’m sure you can tweak and revise to come up with a better program for you. Hope this was helpful.[/quote]

If you cant do heavy shoulder presses you might be able to do some kind of variation of seated DB cleans w/ less weight:
Maybe bring the weight up then press it… I tried this once by accident (was trying to do the below exercise during WSFSB but forgot the form) but I def felt the shoulders working hard w/ way less weight. Of course idk if this is a real exercise so someone else might want to chime in

DeFrancosTraining.com - Seated DB "power cleans"

[Mr_Martian]

Coach,

Thanks for the help.

I am assuming that the jumps I make at the end must be “smart”. By this I mean, do I make the biggest jumps possible where I am activating the cns without causing fatigue. Obviously if I started making only 5 pound jumps toward the end, I would be inducing fatigue more than activating.

Going back to my example:

barx15
95x1
115x1
135x5
155x5
175x5
195x4

Would it be smarter to make less big jumps in the end?

155x5
165x5
175x5
185x5
and hopefully 195x5

I think the problem is finding a way to hit the in between spots without risking inducing too much fatigue. Any thoughts?

You stated that there is much more to autoregulation than just ramping. Would you mind giving some examples that are easy to explain and apply?

Thanks Coach

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Mr.Martian wrote:
Coach,

Thanks for the response.

I used the ramping “method” during my workout for the bench press yesterday and I think I may have made a mistake. My 1rm is 225 so I started out like this:

Bar: 10-15 times
95x1 Feel Set
115x1 Feel Set
135x5
155x5
175x5
195x4

I think 20 pounds may have been too big of jump, leading me to believe I probably missed out on some potentiation and solid reps. I know you usually recommend 10,20,30 lb jumps, depending on the type of exercise. How about everything in between, say 5,14lbs?

That said, is the goal to reach your absolute max for the prescribed number of reps, in which 5 pound jumps is acceptable?

Should the last rep be an all out grinder? Or should it be the last rep you can get with good clean form (No stalling with the weight, go up smoothly)?

Finally, what type of activation techniques would you use for the deadlift?

Thanks

Oh yeah, any kind of jumps is acceptable when you are up to the end of the spectrum.

For the deadlift we use variations of the olympic lifts, broad/forward jumps, medicine ball toss overhead.[/quote]

[andrewe123]

Thibs,

Where should the pins be set on heavy partial bench? Today after setting the bar about 6 inches off chest, I felt more drained rather than activated. Would 6 inches from lockout be more beneficial for activation, or would this only activate the triceps?

I tried looking on your preview I,BB video to see where you set it, but the camera angle makes it hard to see clearly.

Thanks.

[LittleDevil]

Christian,
how should one feels when switching to the method with activating the CNS, ramping the weight and moving the weight as fast as possible? I’m using it for several days now, and I’m not feeling so fatigued and tired as before, and thats disturbing me. I’m doing 3 reps for 1st exercise for muscle group, the 5 reps for the 2nd and 3rd exercise. I’m resting as little as 30sec, but usually less, and doing much more sets, usually more than 5 because I’m feeling much more powerful (but not stronger) and I don’t feel tired after the set and the workout. I mean I’m not feeling that overall fatigue (physical and mental) and I do have problems at night falling a sleep, because I’m not tired. Actually I have much more energy.

I don’t think I’m not training hard enough, just feel strange.
Are these things normal? Am I resting too little? And should I have trouble falling a sleep ?

Thanks in advance!

[lavi]

Is there ever a need for a deload week under your system of autoregulatory training, or does the autoregulatory part take care of that?

[Thy1]

Thib, did I get this right about a specialization phase (by looking at one of the templates that you offered here) that on a regular 3day/week split, 1 or 2 movements can be worked heavily (ramped up to 3-5 reps) on each day ?

Is it because 1) it’s upper body that recovers quicker AND 2) because of the ramping there is only one true heavy set that would lead to significant CNS and neruomuscluar fatigue ?

[Buff_Sax_Dude]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Buff Sax Dude wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Lunarisx718 wrote:
Coach,

 Given your new outlook on training (low reps). Is HSS-100 outdated? would you recommend specializing bodyparts for 4 weeks with ramping and low reps instead?

If HSS-100 is still worth doing, would you ramp during the superset portion?

Thanks

It’s not my new outlook on training. It has always been my training philosophy. But in the past I made the mistake of including some ‘mainstream bodybuilding stuff’ in my programs so that the readers would more easily apply the methods I which I really believed in.

Is HSS worth doing? It is a good program, I stand by that. It is not 100% in-line with my beliefs and personal preferences, but it still is effective. Just make sure to ramp up the heavy exercise.

This might be asking way too much, but do you have any “quick’n’dirty” tips to modify your HSS specialization routines to fit your current philosophy?

Limiting sets to 5-8 reps, at most, and ditching the 100 rep set?

I wouldn’t ditch the 100 reps set. It’s not a muscle building set, it’s more for active recovery.

I would:

a) Add an activation exercise prior to the heavy movement
b) Keep the heavy movement at 5 reps or less
c) Start at 60% on the heavy movement and gradually work up to the max weight you can handle for the prescribed reps and then stop the exercise
d) For the superset exercises keep the total reps at 12 or under (6 reps + 6 reps, 4 reps + 8 reps, etc.)
e) Keep the special exercise at 7 reps or less
f) Start at 60% of your max and work up toward the max weight you can handle for the selected number of reps.
[/quote]

Thanks, man.

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]lavi wrote:
Is there ever a need for a deload week under your system of autoregulatory training, or does the autoregulatory part take care of that? :P[/quote]

It pretty much takes care of it, although in some cases a deload will still be beneficial. Instinctively I ease up on training every 6 or 8 weeks. It is not a planned deload, just a period (1-3 weeks) where I put my training on maintenance and spend my energy on other things.

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]LittleDevil wrote:
Christian,
how should one feels when switching to the method with activating the CNS, ramping the weight and moving the weight as fast as possible? I’m using it for several days now, and I’m not feeling so fatigued and tired as before, and thats disturbing me. I’m doing 3 reps for 1st exercise for muscle group, the 5 reps for the 2nd and 3rd exercise. I’m resting as little as 30sec, but usually less, and doing much more sets, usually more than 5 because I’m feeling much more powerful (but not stronger) and I don’t feel tired after the set and the workout. I mean I’m not feeling that overall fatigue (physical and mental) and I do have problems at night falling a sleep, because I’m not tired. Actually I have much more energy.

I don’t think I’m not training hard enough, just feel strange.
Are these things normal? Am I resting too little? And should I have trouble falling a sleep ?

Thanks in advance![/quote]

Your situation in not uncomme and it is EXACTLY how you should feel! A perfect training session will leave the muscles somewhat fatigued BUT the nervous system in overdrive (activation stays elevated for a few hours) so you should actually be more focused and energetic from 1 to 8-10 hours after your workout.

I always say that to know if you autoregulated properly you should feel muscle fatigue right after your workout, but 60-90 minutes after you should be super motivated to train again. That’s when you know that your nervous system is in overdrive.

Dr. Tim Hall whom I was training in Colorado actually had problems sleeping after a very good workout, not because he was hyped-up but because he was so focused that he couldn’t stop thinking.

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]andrewe123 wrote:
Thibs,

Where should the pins be set on heavy partial bench? Today after setting the bar about 6 inches off chest, I felt more drained rather than activated. Would 6 inches from lockout be more beneficial for activation, or would this only activate the triceps?

I tried looking on your preview I,BB video to see where you set it, but the camera angle makes it hard to see clearly.

Thanks.[/quote]

It’s not so much the position as how many sets you did.

Activation clusters are great at potentiating the nervous system, but they are very costly on the nervous system. So if you do even just a bit too much, you risk decreasing performance in other exercises.

Cluster reps on big movements have about the same neural effect as one heavy set. So if you do 4 sets of 3 reps on heavy clusters, it is pretty much like doing 12 heavy sets when it comes to the nervous system.

[live_to_lift]

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
live_to_lift wrote:
live_to_lift wrote:
CT,

Here are the facts:

1.) Time-demanding profession (City Manager); M-F 8-?pm and a 45-minute commute each way
2.) Married w/ 2 small children under the age of 3
3.) Literally only have 1 hour 5 days a week MAX to train
4.) Fatloss is #1 goal (and not lose too much LMB along th way, obviously)
5.) Lower back issues which preclude me from performing several “money” lifts (i.e. back squats, heavy shoulder presses, non-supported rows, etc.)
6.) 210-215 lbs. w/ approx. 16% bodyfat

I’m at a loss on how to structure my weekly training routine in context of these facts. How many days should I train with weights? ESW? (I’m following your nutritional recommendations from your Refined Physique Transformation article.)

Any ideas? (stupid question, I know)

Thank you.

Since I’ve not received a response before those who posted questions after me have, it begs the question: Was this a stupid question, a type of question CT has answered earlier, a question that wasn’t technical enough or all of the above? LOL

Screw it. I’ll figure it out.

5 hours a week is plenty of time. You could lift on days 1, 3, 5 and do some ESW on days 2 & 4.

Can you do lunges? I currently have a facet dysfunction (sprain) at L-5 but my PT has cleared me for both stationary and walking lunges. This is helping me at least maintain lower body and walking lunges are great for raising heart rate.

You could use circuits to make the most of your time. From experience, I know these will fit into an hour with about 1 minute rests between sets (gives you at least 2 minutes between movements in the A group). Again, I can usually do this in an hour with about 8 sets for each movement in the A1-A3 circuit (3 warm-ups, 5 working) and 4-5 sets for the B circuit (pretty much warmed up from A circuit).

Workout A:
A1: Lunges
A2: OHP
A3: Pull-ups
B1: curls
B2: skull crushers / close grip press
C: some kind of ab work (planks, roll-outs, etc).

Workout B:
A1: Lunges
A2: Bench press (incline or flat)
A3: DB Row or another “low row” movement
B1: Side lateral raises, front raises
B2: Rear delt row or lateral raise
C: some kind of ab work (planks, roll-outs, etc).

You could keep repeating A/B/A/B or make a C that includes more leg work:

Workout C:
A1: Leg extension
A2: Leg curls
B1: Assistance 1 (eg: calves?)
B2: Assistance 2
C: some kind of ab work (planks, roll-outs, etc).

This is a lot of upper body stuff, but I’m assuming that not being able to squat or deadlift is temporary and you’re only trying to maintain lower body.

For days 2 & 4, ESW. You could do tabata on a stationary bike. That would be pretty quick and give you a lot of bang for your time.

Of course you need to clean up your diet and manage your carbs, which it sounds like you’re already trying to do.

Oh, just noticed you can’t do heavy shoulder presses. Is that standing only? Can you do seated military press? That’s what I’m doing now, seated.

I’m sure you can tweak and revise to come up with a better program for you. Hope this was helpful.[/quote]

Thanks for your insight ds. I’m not a total novice so my questions really had more to do with how to structure the week (i.e. how many days to lift versus ESW) but your ideas for the workouts will definately give me something else to try.

My PT and chiro have advise against any heavy axial loading, EVER again, due to degenerative disc disease. I load up on heavy laterals and upright rows for the shoulders and usually do presses toward the end of the workout. This seems to serve as a pre-exhaust method and usually fries the delts sufficiently.

I’ve been doing a TON of unilateral and bodyweight only lowerbody work and that seems to help quite a bit. I did begin deadlifting agains several weeks ago but I use a plate-loaded “machine” that allows me to keep my hands and the weight at my sides. It’s not the same as BB deads but considering the alternative and trying to forego another e cortisone shot, it’ll have to do.

Again, thanks for your ideas and time.

[anth15]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
teebone2223 wrote:

I used to do 5x5 at the same weight on my primary exercises and now that I am focusing on accelerating the weight as fast as possible and ramping the weights my numbers are down about 10bs on my last set for 5, however, I do feel more neurally drained.

1. do I need to work on my speed strength?
2. is it normal that my numbers are down on my primary lifts( initially) despite feeling neurally fresh at the beginning of both workouts?
3. Is it ok that I have a 3rd exercise for each muscle group or should I just focus on the primary and secondary lifts?

Sorry for the lengthy message,
Thanks for your time,
teebone2223

1. Yes… so I would suggest smaller jumps at the start and bigger ones once you pass the 80% mark.
2. It sometimes is. To me it actually sounds positive. Why? Because it tells me that the explosion sets produced MORE force than what you were used to. The muscles and nervous system has to work much harder than in the past, leaving you drained. The more you practice this type of training the stronger you’ll get because your nervous system will be more efficient.
3. If you still feel good and motivated to train, yeah, do that third exercise.[/quote]

WHy would the numbers go down when ramping and exploding? IM confused. Wouldnt that activate the stonger muscle fibers so he should be doing more? I noticed I do MORE weight when I ramp? But I also use activating exercise before that…(that could be why). DId this guy active the nervouse system with blast isos, balsistc moevements, etc before ramping.

So its normal that(for some people) the strength on the last set is down a little but over time its just building up the nervous system and will make us even stronger because we now have the nervous system built up WAY better than before. Am I understind this correctly CT?

[andrewe123]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
andrewe123 wrote:
Thibs,

Where should the pins be set on heavy partial bench? Today after setting the bar about 6 inches off chest, I felt more drained rather than activated. Would 6 inches from lockout be more beneficial for activation, or would this only activate the triceps?

I tried looking on your preview I,BB video to see where you set it, but the camera angle makes it hard to see clearly.

Thanks.

It’s not so much the position as how many sets you did.

Activation clusters are great at potentiating the nervous system, but they are very costly on the nervous system. So if you do even just a bit too much, you risk decreasing performance in other exercises.

Cluster reps on big movements have about the same neural effect as one heavy set. So if you do 4 sets of 3 reps on heavy clusters, it is pretty much like doing 12 heavy sets when it comes to the nervous system.[/quote]

Thanks for your reply.

I did 6 sets of 3 cluster reps starting at about 60% and ramping up until I was unable to get 3 good reps anymore as you prescribe for normal lifts. Is this not the way to go about activation clusters with partials?

[Gymjunkie]

Hey Coach,

Over the last few months I have tried training twice a day for fat loss using various PM workouts, always training heavy in the AM. I seem to gain lean mass well, but struggle losing fat even when dropping intake and deloading when required. Another thing, for the first time in 3-4 years, I have gottan sick, 3 times in the last 3 months.

I LOVE training, and love training twice a day, but it seems that my body is not responding well, for my current desired goal. Have you come across this with many clients?

When I train once a day, 3 Heavy(CNS) days an 2 Metabolic Pairing days, the fat was comin off well!

Do you still lean toward this set up for fat loss? Or do you prefer using 1 pairing at the end of a heavy workout…therefore always training heavy at the start of a workout?

Thanks,
GJ

[Jesse1]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
LittleDevil wrote:
Christian,
how should one feels when switching to the method with activating the CNS, ramping the weight and moving the weight as fast as possible? I’m using it for several days now, and I’m not feeling so fatigued and tired as before, and thats disturbing me. I’m doing 3 reps for 1st exercise for muscle group, the 5 reps for the 2nd and 3rd exercise. I’m resting as little as 30sec, but usually less, and doing much more sets, usually more than 5 because I’m feeling much more powerful (but not stronger) and I don’t feel tired after the set and the workout. I mean I’m not feeling that overall fatigue (physical and mental) and I do have problems at night falling a sleep, because I’m not tired. Actually I have much more energy.

I don’t think I’m not training hard enough, just feel strange.
Are these things normal? Am I resting too little? And should I have trouble falling a sleep ?

Thanks in advance!

Your situation in not uncomme and it is EXACTLY how you should feel! A perfect training session will leave the muscles somewhat fatigued BUT the nervous system in overdrive (activation stays elevated for a few hours) so you should actually be more focused and energetic from 1 to 8-10 hours after your workout.

I always say that to know if you autoregulated properly you should feel muscle fatigue right after your workout, but 60-90 minutes after you should be super motivated to train again. That’s when you know that your nervous system is in overdrive.

Dr. Tim Hall whom I was training in Colorado actually had problems sleeping after a very good workout, not because he was hyped-up but because he was so focused that he couldn’t stop thinking.[/quote]

No kidding!!! This is EXACTLY how i felt last night after training. I did the ramp exactly how Thib prescribed; each rep done as fast as possible with low reps from 60% on up and i was so amped up i couldnt fall asleep till about 5:30 am!! I even f#@%ked my girl twice and still couldnt sleep!! it was like my nervous system was jacked up on hyperdrive!! I couldnt stop thinking about training and why Thib hadn’t told us about this superior method of loading before!! It felt good…real good. i wasnt fatigued at all… Now i cant wait to train again. Thanks Thib… ramping may not be something new but no one has ever explained how to do it properly better than you have bro!!

I gotta go order more Z-12 now

[Costco77]

Hey CT, After reading your article i’m really trying to me my own coach so to speak and forget about periodization, I’m really trying to feel how my bodys reacting on a day to day basis and so far I have really only been going off how sore my body is. Is there other factors that I should be aware of? Also if I have stouborn body parts how often can I train them in a week without overtraining them? And how do I know when to train them next? For example arms are my weak point, if I train arms and they are not sore two days later can I train them again?

[octagon]

Sorry if this a stupid question .

I remember reading one of your posts , and you something said along the lines of adjusting your training based on your physiology not feel. How can you do this? Are there any practical means for measuring changes in physiology?

[drewh]

What do you think of reverse curl drop an catch does this exercise make sense? What about Cheat curls to activate the CNS? Thanks

[Hard_Hank]

Hey Coach, I just wanted to shout out a quick thanks. I know you’re extremely busy but you still somehow manage to surf the forums and answer a ton of questions. I appreciate the hard work and the candid comments.

I have a couple questions for you.

How important is the mind muscle connection to you? Using the CNS activation sets using a fast tempo would seem like it would help you to “feel” the muscle working while working up to the last max set- but what if it doesn’t? What if you can’t feel the muscle working?

Would you recommend training to establish the connection first? If you DO recommend training for the mind muscle connection first- how would you go about that? The higher I go in weight, the less I seem to be able to feel. So by switching to sets of 6 or less as you suggest, I’m worried that I’ll be going through the exercise motion instead of focusing on the muscle involvement.

Do you still recommend pre-fatigue sets for high reps before each set?

Any help is always appreciated.