[quote]tom63 wrote:
molnes wrote:
tom63 wrote:
He’s a respective scholar by leftists. Milton Friedman a respective scholar, but the marxists, socialist, and leftist don’t like him much. the only place where chomsky’s ideas work is in the ivory towers of academia.
To say that he is only respected by leftists is just plain wrong. He is probably the single most respected man in social sciences today. In fact no other living scientists have been cited more than he has in academic texts. But that doesn’t prove anything does it?
I’m also curious to which ideas of his you only think will work in “the ivory towers of academia”?
The reason i brought him up in the first place in this thread is because he has written probably the best books on the US imperialistic agenda. It is important to be aware of the violence committed by the USA in other countries to understand what is happening now.
There is a reason for why there are terrorists in the first place. I’m not saying terrorism is legitimate in any way, in fact I believe it to be some of the worst crimes a man can commit. I’m merely contesting the legitimacy of the US invasions on foreign soil, for no other reasons than to protect the interests of the US. The US have killed millions of people since WW2. Why this is OK is hard for me to grasp. To kill millions of poor defenseless people is obviously nothing to be worried about. Not when the crimes are committed by the USA, if a few thousand people in the USA gets killed however…
Chomsky isn’t taken seriously by conservatives. Believe what you want, but Usama bin Laden is highly respected by many Muslims, maybe millions, but I don’t care for him much.[/quote]
Marx was quite intellegent and followed pretty religiously. He was wrong, but respected non the less.
Again. Whether you guys respect chomsky or not is besides the point. The point is that he backs his statements up with facts. Whether you like his ideas or not, is not relevant. What is relevant is what the USA have done to other countries. But it seems like you don’t care about the USA killing millions of defenseless people, as long as it’s not US citizens…
What part of the constition limit tactics used in war?
According to your constitution that is not even a war.
touche. Ok what part of the constitution limits tactics in a military conflict.
The part where it says that the government can only do things that it is allowed to do by the constitution?
Where does it say that it can even start “military conflicts” that are conveniently “not wars”?
Is that what we are talking about? You are correct but this is fucking stretch for this argument. So if congress had declared war on terrorist, it would be ok to torture them according to the constitution?[/quote]
No, just goes to show that constitutionality in the US is kind of a tricky territory.
What part of the constition limit tactics used in war?
According to your constitution that is not even a war.
touche. Ok what part of the constitution limits tactics in a military conflict.
The part where it says that the government can only do things that it is allowed to do by the constitution?
Where does it say that it can even start “military conflicts” that are conveniently “not wars”?
Is that what we are talking about? You are correct but this is fucking stretch for this argument. So if congress had declared war on terrorist, it would be ok to torture them according to the constitution?
No, just goes to show that constitutionality in the US is kind of a tricky territory.
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It’s only tricky when you invoke it to justify a position it just doesn’t address.
[quote]molnes wrote:
Again. Whether you guys respect chomsky or not is besides the point. The point is that he backs his statements up with facts. Whether you like his ideas or not, is not relevant. What is relevant is what the USA have done to other countries. But it seems like you don’t care about the USA killing millions of defenseless people, as long as it’s not US citizens…[/quote]
No - that is not true - Chomsky works in the classically dishonest technique of cherry-picking specific events and facts usually divorced from the larger context, ignores relevant materials and constructs his own interpretation of events that are most often disputed by those who were actually involved in those events . . .So, having read him and realizing what an intellectual charlatan he actually is - I purposefully choose to ignore and ridicule him whenever the opportunity is provided . . .
As for your baseless accusation about us not caring about defenseless people - you arrogantly ignore the millions of innocent people on whose behalf our soldiers have bleed and died -so you can take your little pathetic accusations and stuff them right back up your ass where they came from . . .
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
No - that is not true - Chomsky works in the classically dishonest technique of cherry-picking specific events and facts usually divorced from the larger context, ignores relevant materials and constructs his own interpretation of events that are most often disputed by those who were actually involved in those events . . .[/quote]
What so the vietnam war didn’t happen? Didn’t USA bomb the goverment in chile and place a brutal military dictator (Pinochet) in power? Didn’t they arrange lots of other coups in south-america sometimes placing dictators in power after arranging coups against democratically elected leaders? This is common knowledge and it hasn’t got jack shit to do with cherry picking facts and leaving important stuff out.
What have you read by him? “Intellectual charlatan”. Again with the moronic name calling. He is widely considered one of the worlds most important and respected intellectuals. The simple trick of labeling him as something he is not is not going to help. It’s as ridiculus as labeling Einstein as stupid.
[quote]
As for your baseless accusation about us not caring about defenseless people - you arrogantly ignore the millions of innocent people on whose behalf our soldiers have bleed and died -so you can take your little pathetic accusations and stuff them right back up your ass where they came from . . [/quote]
When did I write that the USA has done nothing but bad things? I have never stated such a thing. The Marshall plan in europe for instance was instrumental in the rebuilding of europe after WW2. This was a great contribution by the USA. Regardless of motives it was very helpful to a lot of people. My point is that most people (not only in the USA, but in most of the western world) don’t even start to consider the enormous attrocities committed by the USA.
Do you really think USA went to war to protect other people? That is extremely naive. All of US wars has been to serve US interests, often at the great suffering of the people living in poor nations.
[quote]molnes wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
No - that is not true - Chomsky works in the classically dishonest technique of cherry-picking specific events and facts usually divorced from the larger context, ignores relevant materials and constructs his own interpretation of events that are most often disputed by those who were actually involved in those events . . .
What so the vietnam war didn’t happen? Didn’t USA bomb the goverment in chile and place a brutal military dictator (Pinochet) in power? Didn’t they arrange lots of other coups in south-america sometimes placing dictators in power after arranging coups against democratically elected leaders? This is common knowledge and it hasn’t got jack shit to do with cherry picking facts and leaving important stuff out.
"So, having read him and realizing what an intellectual charlatan he actually is - I purposefully choose to ignore and ridicule him whenever the opportunity is provided . . .
What have you read by him? “Intellectual charlatan”. Again with the moronic name calling. He is widely considered one of the worlds most important and respected intellectuals. The simple trick of labeling him as something he is not is not going to help. It’s as ridiculus as labeling Einstein as stupid.
As for your baseless accusation about us not caring about defenseless people - you arrogantly ignore the millions of innocent people on whose behalf our soldiers have bleed and died -so you can take your little pathetic accusations and stuff them right back up your ass where they came from . .
When did I write that the USA has done nothing but bad things? I have never stated such a thing. The Marshall plan in europe for instance was instrumental in the rebuilding of europe after WW2. This was a great contribution by the USA. Regardless of motives it was very helpful to a lot of people. My point is that most people (not only in the USA, but in most of the western world) don’t even start to consider the enormous attrocities committed by the USA.
Do you really think USA went to war to protect other people? That is extremely naive. All of US wars has been to serve US interests, often at the great suffering of the people living in poor nations.
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As for your baseless accusation about us not caring about defenseless people - you arrogantly ignore the millions of innocent people on whose behalf our soldiers have bleed and died -so you can take your little pathetic accusations and stuff them right back up your ass where they came from . . .[/quote]
What did the US do for other countries? You need get your pink star-sprandled glasses off and start to think. but I know you won’t
As for your baseless accusation about us not caring about defenseless people - you arrogantly ignore the millions of innocent people on whose behalf our soldiers have bleed and died -so you can take your little pathetic accusations and stuff them right back up your ass where they came from . . .
What did the US do for other countries? You need get your pink star-sprandled glasses off and start to think. but I know you won’t
[/quote]
Oh, guess freedom from tyrants is nothing . . . you’re right, we’re assholes.
…yes you are assholes. A huge and powerful motherfucker that does what it wants if it’s beneficial to furthering it’s goals of world domination. And that’s fine, it really is fine to do that because any nation with great power does, or has done, this. It’s nature, it’s human nature. Dressing it up as if it’s something other than that, that no longer fools people…
As for your baseless accusation about us not caring about defenseless people - you arrogantly ignore the millions of innocent people on whose behalf our soldiers have bleed and died -so you can take your little pathetic accusations and stuff them right back up your ass where they came from . . .
What did the US do for other countries? You need get your pink star-sprandled glasses off and start to think. but I know you won’t
Oh, guess freedom from tyrants is nothing . . . you’re right, we’re assholes.[/quote]
USA have arranged a lot of coups in South-America sometimes replacing democratically elected leaders with brutal military dictatorships. Historically speaking they have done whatever serves their interests almost regardless of how this affects the population in other countries.
And no, Americans in general are not assholes. Americans are generally nice people, but most of the leaders have committed terrible war crimes. Often without the American population knowing much about it.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:Oh, guess freedom from tyrants is nothing . . . you’re right, we’re assholes.
…yes you are assholes. A huge and powerful motherfucker that does what it wants if it’s beneficial to furthering it’s goals of world domination. And that’s fine, it really is fine to do that because any nation with great power does, or has done, this. It’s nature, it’s human nature. Dressing it up as if it’s something other than that, that no longer fools people…
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No, the American people are not assholes. Most of the leaders however have been giant assholes. Using propaganda to gain consent for terrible wars.
Historically speaking they have done whatever serves their interests almost regardless of how this affects the population in other countries.
Unlike which other world power? Norway? Canada?
Nothing beats the citizens of a bunch of weak, impotent, internationally-speaking all-but-meaningless countries telling the superpower what the RIGHT way to wield power is. Based on their own experience with successfully doing so, I guess?
And then you have the people of former powers, with unconscionably heinous histories (the UK, Germany / Austria) with THEIR pontificating and lecturing on the evils of the US. "Do as we say, not as we terrorized, colonized, oppressed and ‘holocausted,’ huh?
Historically speaking they have done whatever serves their interests almost regardless of how this affects the population in other countries.
Unlike which other world power? Norway? Canada?
Nothing beats the citizens of a bunch of weak, impotent, internationally-speaking all-but-meaningless countries telling the superpower what the RIGHT way to wield power is. Based on their own experience with successfully doing so, I guess?
And then you have the people of former powers, with unconscionably heinous histories (the UK, Germany / Austria) with THEIR pontificating and lecturing on the evils of the US. "Do as we say, not as we terrorized, colonized, oppressed and ‘holocausted,’ huh?
Great comedy!
Really, it’s funny.
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What’s your point? That other countries do bad things as well? Sure they do. I’m not saying that the United States is unique when it comes to the use of power. On the contrary I’m merely saying that they are doing what all nations of a superior military have done throughout history. Which is to dominate the world with it and use it for their own imperialistic agenda.
The Britons did this as well with the British empire. The vikings of Norway sailed around and plundered weaker nations. But nobody in their right minds will say that the British empire was a good thing for the countries exploited by the Britons, or that there was any moral justification for the vikings plundering other people. Yet during the time of the British empire most people thought the actions were justifiable and not only justifiable but the only right thing to do. The general consensus was that the Britons were doing the world a great service by anglifying the world and that they were in fact carrying out the “white mans burden” by civilizing the world.
When we hear these justifications of the British today, it makes us laugh. They didn’t do these nations a good service because of altruistic motives, they did what they did to get more wealth for themselves at the cost of others. But when some people are talking about the US today it’s like they are talking about a new world order where they use their military force for altruistic and good means, though these claims are obviously just as ridiculous as those of the Britons in the 18th and 19th century.
…i think the British, Polish and Canadian soldiers had more to do with liberating Holland than you take credit for Irish, but why take offense at me calling you people? Does you shit smell like roses?