New Labs, Need Help

Hey guys, I finally got my labs back, and to say the least, i am very disturbed and upset. What is going on here? Can anyone help?
These labs were taken 2 days after my last cyp injection, in the morning.

Testosterone, Total 906.1 348-1197
Free Testosterone 37 8.7-25.1 FLAGGED HIGH
SHBG 11.5 16.5-55.9 FLAGGED LOW
TSH .960 .450-4.500
Estradiol Sensitive 13 3-70
Thryoxine (T4) 8.1 4.5-12.0
Triiodothyronine(T3) 113 71-180
Triiodothryonine, Free 3.8 2.0-4.4
RBC 5.81 4.14-5.80 FLAGGED HIGH
Hematocrit 51.4 37.5-51.0 FLAGGED HIGH

Been on TRT since February. I felt absolutely amazing from late March to late April, but then things started to decline, and now I feel exactly like i did when I first started. Im feeling very bad with very low energy, low libido, anxiety, and deprression. I have heard that abnormally low SHBG levels is the “kiss of death” on trt. Is this fixable, or do I need to give up on TRT!!! I know that there is a “sweet spot” for me because I felt it for a month, so help me get back to that!!!

my current protocol is 100cyp every 5 days, with 500iu hcG the day before, and .50mg Adex the day after. I posted this info on another forum board and one experienced guy thinks I should cut back my adex dose to .25 instead of .5mgs. My baseline Estradiol Sensitive score was 9 when I first started TRT.

I tested Estradiol Sensitive on May 1st and the score was 47. That is when I initiated the .50 Adex. He seems to think that if my E raises a bit to the more ideal 20 something range, that I will feel better and my SHBG might even out a bit and climb to a more normal range

Estradiol score or not, im worried about my SHBG and free T. I think that is the main culprit

If you read the stickies …

Your E2 is too low. You may be an anastrozole over-responder. You cannot simply take anastrozole once per week. Try injecting twice per week and take .25mg at the time of injection. Stop Anastrozole for 5-6 days then resume at lower dose.

Your high RBC is been driven by FT and Bio-T. T+SHBG is not bio-available. TT is not high, but FT is and that may be the problem. You can try 100mg/week instead of 140.

Your low SHBG contributes to your high FT.

Low E2 contributes to low SHBG.

Diabetes can cause low SHBG. We need more details as per the advice for new guys sticky. Did you read that. Do not even know your age or other health issues.

Replied to you thread. Please place links to your thread here for me to follow. No case details please.

-age 34
-height 6’1
-waist 35
-weight 210

-describe body and facial hair -FULL BEARD, FULL HEAD OF HAIR AND HAIR GROWS FAST

-describe where you carry fat and how changed- DONT HAVE TOO MUCH FAT, PRETTY LEAN, SMALL LOVE HANDLES IF ANY

-health conditions, symptoms [history]- NO HEALTH CONDITIONS, I DO SMOKE/CHEW TOBBACO, ALCOHOL VERY RARELY. I do have BFS (Benign Fasciculation Syndrome), uncontrollable twitches in my calves (TRT made them go away, but now they are back).

-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever - I TAKE 7MG/DAY PAROXETINE FOR 10 YEARS

-lab results with ranges - POSTED

-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets]- PRETTY CLEAN, 3-4 MEALS PER DAY, MODERATE CARB, HIGH PROTEIN

-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training] - LIFT WEIGHTS MODERATELY HEAVY

-testes ache, ever, with a fever? -NO TESTICULAR ACHES

-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed - I GET MORNING WOOD VERY RARELY, SAME WITH NOCTURNAL ERECTIONS

You free T is plenty high. You could cut back on T a bit and drop the Adex down like you said. With low SHBG, you should probably aim for low 20s on E2, and you might want to consider more frequent injections. Mine is about where yours is and I inject EOD with HCG on the other days. This seems to even me out seeing as I metabolize T quickly. I’m still tweaking, but my Free T was towards the top of the range at 30mg EOD. I just did some blood work for 40mg EOD.

It would be interesting to see what your trough is. Can you test the morning of your T inj before you inject. This should tell you if you are metabolizing fast and need to inj more frequently.

dhickey…i already did that! about a month ago, i tested on the day of my injection(prior to of course!) and it was 696. so it seems like my peak is around 900 and my trough is around 700. i dont think that’s too big of a swing do you ? do you agree that maybe the problem is not my shbg, but rather my E2 being too low?

i think from what ksman has told me, is that low e2 can cause low shbg. maybe if i raise that e2 from 13 to say 23-25ish, then maybe my shbg will raise/free t will lower, and that would put me in a more optimal situation. thoughts?

I don’t know about SHBG tracking with E2. Mine didn’t.

E2, SHBG
33, 11
81, 14
15, 12
10, 11
18, 14

I have heard that you should adjust E2 to track with SHBG, but can’t recall the logic. It was suggested that I aim for 20 on E2 with my low SHBG.

Again, you could try to shorten up the injection frequency. This has made chasing E2 levels much easier for me. I do subQ, so EOD injections are no big deal.

dhickey…i see that your shbg is quite low as well. I wanted to ask you how has your experience with TRT been? Have you seen a great improvement? From what I have read on forums such as this, is that people with shbg can have a tough time finding success on trt. how long have you been on?

dhickey…i see that your shbg is quite low as well. I wanted to ask you how has your experience with TRT been? Have you seen a great improvement? From what I have read on forums such as this, is that people with shbg can have a tough time finding success on trt. how long have you been on?

I’ve definitely seem some significant improvement, but it’s been a bit of a roller coaster ride. Endocrine issues are just a piece of the puzzle for me. Stabilizing hormone levels is a relatively easy way to eliminate one variable and simplify the rest of the diagnostics. Before TRT I felt barely alive. I still have thryroid and adrenal issues to sort through, but now I don’t have to worry about endocrine issues being a potential cause or contributor.

With low SHBG, I would recommend small frequent doses. My level are going to be very stable injecting small doses EOD. It’s also made managing E2 levels much easier. I still have a little tweaking to do to on E2 levels, but they are much more predictable. Small changes to my protocol net predicable results now. I’ve been doing this one my own. Making appts with my doc is a bit of pain and expensive. I tweak a bit and buy a $56 test (T, free T, DHEA-S, E2, Progesterone) to check results. I can do this very easily every couple weeks if needed.

I’ve aimed for free T at the top of the range and will tweak my AI dose to get E2 to around 20. My DHEA-s levels are also towards the top of the range. If you don’t feel pretty good at these levels, it’s time to look elsewhere. You thyroid numbers look pretty good. You might want to look at 4x saliva test to asses cortisol levels. I get them from Canary Club. They also have neurotransmitter testing if you’re so inclined.

The key is to take control of your own treatment. Use the doc to get a script for things you need, but don’t hesitate to tweak and experiment a bit. I find it easiest to do this one my own and report back to my doc. I don’t aim for ridiculous numbers so he doesn’t have to be concerned with me trying to abuse it or overshoot normal ranges. I’m actually taking a bit less than he would probably have me taking.

I buy my own insulin syringes to do my subQ injections. I buy my HCG from an international source to save $. I’ve sourced my own AI from a research chem company for ease of dosing small and more frequently I now use a script for Adex and dissolve them in vodka to administer small frequent doses via a dropper.

If you have any more question on my protocol or ancillaries I use, don’t hesitate to ask.

This chart explains how Free T is obtained from TT and SHGB values. Might shed some light on some things for you. Also, read below:

From Dr. Mariano:

Focusing on increasing SHBG is like treating a lab value rather than treating a patient.

The question I would have for a person with low SHBG is: What problems does one have?

Is it low libido, high blood pressure, heart attack risk, depression, anxiety, lack of energy, impaired concentration, urinary frequency, gynecomastia, hot flashes, etc.?

By identifying one’s problems, it will be easier to see whether or not SHBG level contributes to the problem.

SHBG has signaling properties of its own. It has its own receptors on cell membranes. When testosterone or estrogens are bound to SHBG, it can bind to its receptors and send its message to the cell. What happens afterwards is not clear. It may be related to the formation of more hormone receptors - but that is speculation at this point.

SHBG helps prolong the duration of action of testosterone, DHT, and estrogens. Low SHBG will increase the amount of free hormone.

Swings in hormone level may occur when low SHBG is present as destruction of the hormone is accelerated by having high free levels. This may cause problems experienced during testosterone replacement. For example, if estrogen is more quickly destroyed/metabolized and levels drop more quickly, one can get hot flashes or anxiety or hypertension, etc. If testosterone levels fluctuate from high to low, depression can occur as the day progresses.

SHBG is made in the liver in response to levels of many hormones:

  1. Increasing Testosterone reduces SHBG
  2. Increasing DHT lowers SHBG
  3. Increasing DHEA lowers SHBG
  4. Increasing Growth Hormone lowers SHBG
  5. Increasing Insulin lowers SHBG
  6. Increasing Estrogen increases SHBG
  7. Increasing Thyroid Hormone increases SHBG

The SHBG level is determine by the balance of the hormone levels.

Given one’s assumed goals in TRT (high libido, good energy, etc.), it may be difficult to increase SHBG without causing problems since SHBG is determine by a balance of hormones.

For example, having high Testosterone and high DHEA is not a situation where SHBG is going to be high without corresponding problems with estrogen or thyroid.

If anything, SHBG should be most often viewed as an indicator of a problem that needs to be solved - rather than as a problem itself.

For example, SHBG is most commonly an indicator of high insulin levels - i.e. insulin resistance or diabetes. It would be then far more important to address insulin resistance or diabetes in treatment than to focus on SHBG.

If low thyroid is a factor in low SHBG, addressing hypothyroidism is far more important.

If low estradiol is a factor in low SHBG, addressing this is more important.

If the low SHBG itself is a problem because it causes large swings in hormone levels, then working around this by achieving more stable hormone levels is indicated.

More frequent dosing of testosterone may be required to stabilize levels. With testosterone cypionate or enanthate injections, dosing twice a week would be better than once a week.

If frequent dosing of testosterone cannot be achieved with transdermals or injections, then a constant dose solution may be needed. This includes testosterone patches, the buccal system, or testosterone pellet insertions. Testosterone pellet insertions may be viewed as fairly drastic since it involves regular minor surgical procedures, but does give the most stable levels - so is a viable solution for the men with problems due to highly variable hormone levels resulting from low SHBG.

If one suspects swings in hormone levels as a cause of problems, one can look for the swings in hormone levels by obtaining a peak and trough level of the hormones (e.g. total testosterone, estradiol, DHT, etc.). For testosterone injections, this is a level about 24-48 hours after an injection and a level just before the next injection. One can also obtain a midpoint level to fill out the level curve.

  1. Increasing Testosterone reduces SHBG
    I have not found this to be the case
    T,SHBG
    870,10.5
    722,13.7
    243,12.1
    298, 11.2
    323, 14.2

  2. Increasing DHEA lowers SHBG
    I have not found this to be the case
    DHEA-S, SHBG
    470, 12.1
    326, 11.2
    370, 14.2

  3. Increasing Estrogen increases SHBG
    I have not found this to be the case even with huge swings in E2. See above.

  4. Increasing Thyroid Hormone increases SHBG
    This seems to track with Free T3 for me. Not with Total T3/T4 or Free T4
    Free T3, SHBG
    2.8, 10.5
    3.5, 13.7
    3, 12.1
    3.5, 14.2

They may all play a part, but manipulating any to get a particular SHBG reading seems like a real mess. Seems like we should just optimize other hormone levels the best we can and let SHBG fall where it may. Mines low so I know more frequent injections will lead to much more stable hormone levels.

ksman…quick question…if i switch to the protocol you are recommending, how will i be able to raise my E2? You said i need to raise my E level. But you want me to inject twice a week, and take .25mg adex the day of each injection. That would be the exact same amount of adex i have been currently taking, is it not? im currently taking 100mg cyp every 5 days, with 500iu the day before, and .50mg adex the day after.

also, are you recommending that i take the adex, the day of, and not the day after the cyp shot?

ksman…on your new dosing protocol…should i maybe do .15mg adex twice a week instead of .25, since that would essentially be the same as .50adex?

So I have started my new trt protocol. I am now injecting 50mg cyp every 3 days, with 250iu hcG the day before each injection. also, im taking .20mgs Adex on the day of each injection. hopefully, this will result in a better response for me.

I WAS injecting 100mg cyp every 5 days with 500iu hcG the day before each shot. I was also taking .50mgs Adex the day after each cyp shot.

The main problem I have, in my opinion, is my currently very low shbg and currently very high FT. My E2, according to ksman, is also too low.

From what I have read, people with low SHBG can have a very difficult time finding a good working trt protocol. Im hoping that the more frequent injects, which is what is recommended for those with low shbg, will provide for a more favorable response. Ive also read that people with low shbg usually do better with LESS testosterone, so hopefully going from 100 every 5 days to 100 every 6 days will help.

please give me your thoughts…thanks…Will