Ohhhh, ok, I get it now.
I should be easily manipulated by mention of 9/11, and if I’m not then I’ll have my character attacked for being “insensitive” and told to “Go talk to the victims families.”
However, if I apply the same logic to the person trying to manipulate me, that they are “insensitive” to other victims of the same thing, their insensitivity is justified because those other victims “aren’t like them”.
So, again, go fuck yourselves.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
So, wait.
If I don’t get all mushy and teary eyed over 9/11 because nobody I knew died, I’m “insensitive”.
However, according to you, its only natural that I’m not impacted by the deaths of people I “don’t know so well”, or “dont identify with”.
I guess, since I didn’t know and dont “identify with” the victims of 9/11 its only right and natural that I’m unaffected by their deaths, according to you.
Thanks for defending me from the “insensitive” charge, I appreciate it. 
[/quote]
You don’t have to get mushy and all teary eyed, just stop acting like a 20 something who doesn’t understand how the world works or has compassion for those who lost loved ones.
In short grow up.
That about sums it up.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
So, wait.
If I don’t get all mushy and teary eyed over 9/11 because nobody I knew died, I’m “insensitive”.
However, according to you, its only natural that I’m not impacted by the deaths of people I “don’t know so well”, or “dont identify with”.
I guess, since I didn’t know and dont “identify with” the victims of 9/11 its only right and natural that I’m unaffected by their deaths, according to you.
Thanks for defending me from the “insensitive” charge, I appreciate it.
[/quote]
You don’t have to get mushy and all teary eyed, just stop acting like a 20 something who doesn’t understand how the world works or has compassion for those who lost loved ones.
In short grow up.
That about sums it up.
[/quote]
I understand how the world works just fine: depending on the color of your skin and which side of an imaginary line you were born on determine the value of your life.
I have equal compassion for the victims of 9/11 as I do for all the other victims of terrorist attacks, regardless of race or nationality. I’m consistant in this, whereas other posters show or defend inconsistant levels of compassion and empathy to victims of terrorist attacks.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
The people of America deserve credit, but you seem to disregard this.
It’s beyond ridiculous to expect Americans to feel as much sorrow for other countries as our own, just as it’s beyond ridiculous for me to expect you to feel the same sorrow for the death of your neighbor as you do for your mother or father or any other close relative or friend.[/quote]
The people of America do not deserve special consideration or emotion. 3,000 Americans dying on 9/11 should not affect me, or anyone else, any more or less than the countless other human beings who lost their lives before or after 9/11 in other terrorist attacks. Yes, it’s different for the victims families and friends, etc, but the same applies to the friends and families of people in other countries who have died under similar circumstances.
That you care more about Americans dying than “others” is simply nationalism on your part; I do not feel the same connection to other Americans because I recognize national borders to be arbitrary imaginary lines.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
This whole idea of “we dont negotiate with terrorists” is pointless when you a) do it all the time and b) define everyone as a terrorist defending his country against a US invasion.
[/quote]
Finally, somebody fucking gets it.[/quote]
Common sense tells me that when we try to kill our enemy we are in essence attempting to stop them. I wonder how horrible it would be to speak directly to them to get them to stop? Call it negotiating, or anything else you like. The point is to stop the killing. We can kill more of them as they kill more of us, or we can talk them out of continuing to take this path.
[/quote]
What are the odds the Taliban will stop being what they are?[/quote]
First of all I don’t think we need to stop them from being what they are. We only need to stop them from trying to kill us. Secondly, even if the odds of trying to stop them are 100-1 it’s still worth a try as we can kill them anyway if that doesn’t work.
And to Cap - Tell the 3000 who died in the TERRORIST ATTACK that there is no threat of terrorism in America.
[/quote]
Yawn.
Was waiting for the 9/11 card again.
One terrorist attack nearly a fucking decade ago does not mean there is a significant terrorist threat today.
Get over it.[/quote]
Why don’t you tell a family member who lost a loved one to the most horrific attack ever to take place on mainland America to “Get over it”.
I guess it’s easy to be insensitive when no one you know lost their life.[/quote]
Quick question: How many people have died as a result of terroist attacks outside of America, before 9/11?
Why did you suddenly get all soft and fuzzy for the families of victims of terrorism when it happened to white folk in America?
I guess it’s easy to be insensitive when you’re nationalist and racist and no one who is white or american loses their lives.[/quote]
This is the stupidest fucking argument I’ve heard on here in several hours. It’s human nature to feel more sorrow for the loss of your own than for the loss of someone who you don’t identify with. On top of that, it isn’t like Americans don’t feel sorrow for the loss of lives outside of our country. When your neighbor dies, do you feel as much sorrow as when a close relative dies? Of course not.
That isn’t to say that you don’t value that person’s life as much as your relative. It’s just that the loss of someone close to you has a much more direct negative impact that you can feel as opposed to the death of someone you don’t know as well.
[/quote]
So, wait.
If I don’t get all mushy and teary eyed over 9/11 because nobody I knew died, I’m “insensitive”.
However, according to you, its only natural that I’m not impacted by the deaths of people I “don’t know so well”, or “dont identify with”.
I guess, since I didn’t know and dont “identify with” the victims of 9/11 its only right and natural that I’m unaffected by their deaths, according to you.
Thanks for defending me from the “insensitive” charge, I appreciate it.
[/quote]
I never once said you were insensitive. Your argument isn’t about you and your feelings; it’s about the American people in general. You made the assertion that it is unfair or selfish for Americans to not care about terrorist attacks until they happen here. My argument is that the American people DO care about terrorist attacks on other countries, but that it is ridiculous for our sorrow toward those victims to be on the same level as our sorrow for American victims right here in America.
Your argument is sinking like a stone so now you’re trying to reword it and turn it into something it wasn’t. We can play this game of sophistry all you want, but when we get back to the issue that I originally addressed, your argument has no merit. I won’t address your comments about insensitivity any further since they have absolutely nothing to do with the crux of your initial argument, nor do they have anything to do with my rebuttal.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
The people of America deserve credit, but you seem to disregard this.
It’s beyond ridiculous to expect Americans to feel as much sorrow for other countries as our own, just as it’s beyond ridiculous for me to expect you to feel the same sorrow for the death of your neighbor as you do for your mother or father or any other close relative or friend.[/quote]
The people of America do not deserve special consideration or emotion. 3,000 Americans dying on 9/11 should not affect me, or anyone else, any more or less than the countless other human beings who lost their lives before or after 9/11 in other terrorist attacks. Yes, it’s different for the victims families and friends, etc, but the same applies to the friends and families of people in other countries who have died under similar circumstances.
That you care more about Americans dying than “others” is simply nationalism on your part; I do not feel the same connection to other Americans because I recognize national borders to be arbitrary imaginary lines.[/quote]
You may refuse to recognize borders and all that, and that’s fine. But the fact remains that you expect an unrealistic emotional response from the American people. There’s nothing wrong with Americans feeling more pain over the death of fellow Americans than they do over the deaths of people who are not American. You can paint this as racist, nationalist, fascist or anything else, but the bottom line is that it is human nature. I highly, highly doubt that you feel the same pain over the death of a stranger as you would over the death of a loved one. That isn’t to imply that you are racist or a provincialist or prejudicial in any other way.
You seem to feel that if our sorrow isn’t equal, than we place less value on people’s lives who are not American. That is not the case at all. We value lives equally; that’s the most basic part of our country’s constitution. But we do not have to feel equal sorrow for those lives. If your mother died and your neighbor, you would not feel equal sorrow, although you may feel that their lives are equally valued in a vacuum. Your condemnation is misguided. Essentially you are saying that to value lives equally we must react in the same way to the loss of lives.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
The people of America deserve credit, but you seem to disregard this.
It’s beyond ridiculous to expect Americans to feel as much sorrow for other countries as our own, just as it’s beyond ridiculous for me to expect you to feel the same sorrow for the death of your neighbor as you do for your mother or father or any other close relative or friend.[/quote]
The people of America do not deserve special consideration or emotion. 3,000 Americans dying on 9/11 should not affect me, or anyone else, any more or less than the countless other human beings who lost their lives before or after 9/11 in other terrorist attacks. Yes, it’s different for the victims families and friends, etc, but the same applies to the friends and families of people in other countries who have died under similar circumstances.
That you care more about Americans dying than “others” is simply nationalism on your part; I do not feel the same connection to other Americans because I recognize national borders to be arbitrary imaginary lines.[/quote]
You may refuse to recognize borders and all that, and that’s fine. But the fact remains that you expect an unrealistic emotional response from the American people.
[/quote]
False. I expect not to have my character called into question for not being particularly sympathetic to one group of terrorist victims.
They feel more pain based on national identity. If you have a better word for this than “nationalism”, I’d love to hear it.
[quote]
You seem to feel that if our sorrow isn’t equal, than we place less value on people’s lives who are not American. That is not the case at all. We value lives equally; that’s the most basic part of our country’s constitution. But we do not have to feel equal sorrow for those lives. If your mother died and your neighbor, you would not feel equal sorrow, although you may feel that their lives are equally valued in a vacuum. Your condemnation is misguided. Essentially you are saying that to value lives equally we must react in the same way to the loss of lives.[/quote]
My point remains: Why am I considered “insensitive” for insufficient empathy towards American victims of terrorism while other Americans are not considered “insensitive” for insufficient empathy toward non-American victims of terrorism?
Are you suggesting their insensitivity is justified while mine is not? Or do you agree the charge that I’m “insensitive” was incorrectly applied?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
As an aside, I am constantly taken aback by how crazy Karzai acts. [/quote]
He’s playing all sides…the US, Taliban, Pakistan and Iran.[/quote]
If reports are true, the guy is seen as crazy by many (most? all?) American diplomats over there. Reading Woodward’s book, the term “off his meds” came up a few times too many.
He’s crazy as a fox, making deals with who he has to, not to help his people, but to keep him and his cronies in power IMO.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
He’s crazy as a fox, making deals with who he has to, not to help his people, but to keep him and his cronies in power IMO.[/quote]
You mean that there are governmenmts trying to help their people?
Opasno!
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
The people of America deserve credit, but you seem to disregard this.
It’s beyond ridiculous to expect Americans to feel as much sorrow for other countries as our own, just as it’s beyond ridiculous for me to expect you to feel the same sorrow for the death of your neighbor as you do for your mother or father or any other close relative or friend.[/quote]
The people of America do not deserve special consideration or emotion. 3,000 Americans dying on 9/11 should not affect me, or anyone else, any more or less than the countless other human beings who lost their lives before or after 9/11 in other terrorist attacks. Yes, it’s different for the victims families and friends, etc, but the same applies to the friends and families of people in other countries who have died under similar circumstances.
That you care more about Americans dying than “others” is simply nationalism on your part; I do not feel the same connection to other Americans because I recognize national borders to be arbitrary imaginary lines.[/quote]
You may refuse to recognize borders and all that, and that’s fine. But the fact remains that you expect an unrealistic emotional response from the American people.
[/quote]
False. I expect not to have my character called into question for not being particularly sympathetic to one group of terrorist victims.
They feel more pain based on national identity. If you have a better word for this than “nationalism”, I’d love to hear it.
You’re confusing me with Zeb. I never said that you were insensitive, although if you do not feel SYMPATHY ( you are incorrectly using empathy, since I assume you were never the victim of a terrorist attack) for those who died on 9/11 then I would have to agree with Zeb that you are insensitive. So stop with the insensitivity thing when you address my posts. It is your prerogative to feel whatever sympathy you want toward terrorist victims, but you suffer from hubris if you think that I am unjustified in feeling sympathy in the same manner that you do. In fact, your hubris has blinded you to the entire crux of my argument.
You throw about the term nationalism as if it’s a bad thing. As if pride in one’s country and a sense of national identity is a bad thing and that this is akin to racism or fascism. I felt as much sorrow for the victims in India as I did for those in Spain, even though I am of Spanish ancestry and have zero Indian ancestry. Your argument leads to this necessary condition: all deaths should impact me in an equal way, regardless of how or why those people died. Your argument mandates that I am prejudiced toward old people if I don’t feel the same sorrow for the death of a 95 from natural causes as I would feel from an infant who dies of natural causes. I am a racist if a white friend of mine dies and I feel more sorrow over that death than the death of a black man halfway across the country who I never met. I am a homophobe if the death of a friend from AIDS affects me more deeply than the death of a homosexual who I never met from AIDS. I am selfish if I feel more sorrow after my sister’s car is stolen than if some stranger’s car is stolen. Your line of logic (or lack thereof) mandates that I feel the same emotional response to a tragedy regardless of who the tragedy happens to or how tragic it actually is. It is also based on the assumption that having a sense of national identity is a bad thing.
So why is nationalism a bad thing? And don’t give me the definition of fascism. What is different about the above scenarios and 9/11? And do you feel the same emotional responses to ALL tragedies, or just terrorist attacks? Why am I unjustified or wrong to feel a sense of national pride? And one other thing: where the fuck do you get off telling me or anyone else what is and is not sufficient empathy (sympathy)? What is it about you that makes your definition of sufficient empathy (sympathy) the be-all, end-all of emotional responses?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
The people of America deserve credit, but you seem to disregard this.
It’s beyond ridiculous to expect Americans to feel as much sorrow for other countries as our own, just as it’s beyond ridiculous for me to expect you to feel the same sorrow for the death of your neighbor as you do for your mother or father or any other close relative or friend.[/quote]
The people of America do not deserve special consideration or emotion. 3,000 Americans dying on 9/11 should not affect me, or anyone else, any more or less than the countless other human beings who lost their lives before or after 9/11 in other terrorist attacks. Yes, it’s different for the victims families and friends, etc, but the same applies to the friends and families of people in other countries who have died under similar circumstances.
That you care more about Americans dying than “others” is simply nationalism on your part; I do not feel the same connection to other Americans because I recognize national borders to be arbitrary imaginary lines.[/quote]
You may refuse to recognize borders and all that, and that’s fine. But the fact remains that you expect an unrealistic emotional response from the American people.
[/quote]
False. I expect not to have my character called into question for not being particularly sympathetic to one group of terrorist victims.
They feel more pain based on national identity. If you have a better word for this than “nationalism”, I’d love to hear it.
You’re confusing me with Zeb. I never said that you were insensitive, although if you do not feel SYMPATHY ( you are incorrectly using empathy, since I assume you were never the victim of a terrorist attack) for those who died on 9/11 then I would have to agree with Zeb that you are insensitive. So stop with the insensitivity thing when you address my posts. It is your prerogative to feel whatever sympathy you want toward terrorist victims, but you suffer from hubris if you think that I am unjustified in feeling sympathy in the same manner that you do. In fact, your hubris has blinded you to the entire crux of my argument.
[quote]
I’m not confusing you with Zeb. I made a post to Zeb in reaction to what he said and you jumped all over my case.
Your argument is that its ok for Americans to feel differently about the deaths of other Americans as they do about other people, the same way its ok to be affected differently by the death of a family member than a neighbor.
Great. Wonderful. Still ignores my point: I am no more or less insensitive than Zeb or any other American when it comes to sympathy towards victims of terrorism. That was my whole point, becase, again my point was a reaction to Zebs attack on my character.
Thats not a “necessary conclusion” of my argument at all. Its a strawman.
Here is the “necessary conclusion” of my argument: You have no right to label someone else “insensitive” when you exhibit the same insensitivity yourself.
Reading comprehension fail.
Yes, you’re right, I incorrectly used the word empathy when I should have used sympathy. I apologize to the word gods.
First, nationalism is, to me, silly because national borders are imaginary lines. Secondly, in the vast majority of cases, citizenship is totally unearned; woo, I’m so proud that I happened to be born on THIS side of the imaginary line, not THAT side! Besides I can think of more harm than good nationalism can do (the only plus is that it gives people a warm fuzzy feeling of superiority).
I dont feel the same emotional response to all tragedies, but I don’t go around trying to manipulate people by calling them insensitive when they don’t feel enough sympathy for the people I do. I really wish you would just understand that point already. Seriously.
Cooper, let me try to explain this again.
Zeb was trying to manipulate my by attacking my character with the charge of “insensitive”, so I made the counterpoint that he is just as insensitive towards other people in the same situation as those he accused me of being insenstive towards, and therefore he has no right to accuse me of a moral failing.
Please, please, please, just get this. Understand this. Please.
Capped, you are completely without credibility at this point. Go to the border in El Paso or Tijuana and tell me that those borders are imaginary lines. They aren’t; you can literally touch the border, feel it, see it and watch yourself cross it. Beyond that, it isn’t really borders that constitute the definition of nationalism in America.
As a country as ethnically diverse as ours, nationalism in America cannot be defined in terms of nationality. My non-white friends are just as capable of feeling the same nationalism that my white ass does. Why? Because what binds us as a country is our belief in the Constitution and our cherishing of personal freedom and liberty. THAT is the common thread that binds Americans together; its not borders or skin color or anything so easily quantifiable.
THAT is why Americans feel our country is the best in the world and why I personally will defend that sentiment until I die. To paraphrase Hunter S. Thompson, this country has the potential to be, and in many instances is, a testament to all the greatest qualities of mankind.
Now you can call that nationalism, fascism, racism, patriotism or any other -ism, but it does not change the fact that THAT is why Americans feel a sense of identity. You can continue to look at this country through your overly cynical lenses, and that’s your business. So don’t even begin to tell me what is “enough sympathy” because you have no reason whatsoever to bash my reasons for feeling a common bond with the American people. EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN on this site values the same basic principles. We may disagree on how to preserve those principles and so forth, but beyond that we are very much alike.
I frequently disagree with ZEB, RockScar, Maximus B, PushHarder and some other people on here, but when it comes down to it they’re no different than I am because we are Americans. And if any of them are reading this right now, I am POSITIVE that they would agree with this basic sentiment. I don’t choose what family I’m born into but I still feel a sense of community with them, even my relatives who are not blood-related.
Now you can call this wishy-washy, warm and fuzzy, teh ghey or whatever else you want to call it, but the bottom line is that I look at my fellow Americans as an extended family of sorts. Can you tell me why this is wrong? Why this form of nationalism is wrong? No.
And I am most certainly proud to be born on this side of a REAL, tangible line. Why? Because I am a part of something in this country. Regardless of how I became an American, I AM an American and nothing will change that. My pride in this country goes way, way beyond lines. It’s a pride in an ideological mindset that I am extremely grateful to be born into. Are you?
So for you to get on here and tell me or anyone else how or why we should react to the deaths of our fellow Americans is beyond pretentious on your part. If you don’t feel a sense of community or any other reason for feeling a deeper connection with Americans that would necessarily illicit a stronger emotional response to their deaths than the deaths of Indians or Spaniards or Afghanis or British, fine. But perhaps you should look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you don’t feel that sense of community. Perhaps the problem is with you and not me or ZEB.
It’s regrettable that ZEB called you insensitive, but that’s not the point of my initial response to your post. Go back to my first response to you. I get your point; I just don’t agree with it.
As an aside, how old were you on 9/11 and what exactly was your emotional response?
"Quick question: How many people have died as a result of terroist attacks outside of America, before 9/11?
Why did you suddenly get all soft and fuzzy for the families of victims of terrorism when it happened to white folk in America?
I guess it’s easy to be insensitive when you’re nationalist and racist and no one who is white or american loses their lives."
Here is the quote that I initially responded to Capped. You accuse ZEB (and I suspect Americans in general) of being insensitive and overtly imply that Americans did not feel the same emotions toward other terrorist attacks as we do toward the victims of 9/11 based on nationalism and racism. There is ZERO evidence to support your claim that ZEB or any other American felt these emotions due to racism.
And as I have clearly stated OVER AND OVER now, your attacks on the nationalism of America is also without merit. Can you tell me why Americans would be wrong to feel this sense of national identity? Please, don’t bring up borders again either. That is WAY too simplistic, cynical, inaccurate and outright wrong to hold any water, as I argued in my previous post. You say “why did you…get soft and fuzzy…when it happened…in America” as if Americans did not feel these same emotions, albeit to a lesser extent, when terrorist attacks occur outside of our borders. But that is entirely false. Every time an American comes on here who honestly felt some amount of sorrow after Munich in 1972 or the Tianenman Square Massacre (count me among those who felt this way after the Massacre, even at a young age) it further invalidates your wild theories.
In fact, to any and all Americans on this forum, why don’t we all start to give examples of the sorrow we felt for the deaths of others in other countries, regardless of the tragedies, whether they be from tsunamis, genocide, terrorism, famine, death squads, etc etc? Let’s show that we are not insensitive and that we DO indeed feel sorrow for others, despite the IDEOLOGICAL borders that surround us. How about it? I’ll start. I felt extreme sorrow after the Tiananmen Square Massacre, I felt sorrow after the tsunami in Indonesia, I felt sorrow after the terrorist attacks in Spain and India. See Capped? You are wrong. We do feel sorrow, we just don’t feel it equally and you have utterly failed to invalidate this.
Cooper, you seem to feel insulted and indignant at being called insensitive.
Smells like trolls. Lots of trolls.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
"Quick question: How many people have died as a result of terroist attacks outside of America, before 9/11?
Why did you suddenly get all soft and fuzzy for the families of victims of terrorism when it happened to white folk in America?
I guess it’s easy to be insensitive when you’re nationalist and racist and no one who is white or american loses their lives."
Here is the quote that I initially responded to Capped. You accuse ZEB (and I suspect Americans in general) of being insensitive and overtly imply that Americans did not feel the same emotions toward other terrorist attacks as we do toward the victims of 9/11 based on nationalism and racism. There is ZERO evidence to support your claim that ZEB or any other American felt these emotions due to racism.
And as I have clearly stated OVER AND OVER now, your attacks on the nationalism of America is also without merit. Can you tell me why Americans would be wrong to feel this sense of national identity? Please, don’t bring up borders again either. That is WAY too simplistic, cynical, inaccurate and outright wrong to hold any water, as I argued in my previous post. You say “why did you…get soft and fuzzy…when it happened…in America” as if Americans did not feel these same emotions, albeit to a lesser extent, when terrorist attacks occur outside of our borders. But that is entirely false. Every time an American comes on here who honestly felt some amount of sorrow after Munich in 1972 or the Tianenman Square Massacre (count me among those who felt this way after the Massacre, even at a young age) it further invalidates your wild theories.
In fact, to any and all Americans on this forum, why don’t we all start to give examples of the sorrow we felt for the deaths of others in other countries, regardless of the tragedies, whether they be from tsunamis, genocide, terrorism, famine, death squads, etc etc? Let’s show that we are not insensitive and that we DO indeed feel sorrow for others, despite the IDEOLOGICAL borders that surround us. How about it? I’ll start. I felt extreme sorrow after the Tiananmen Square Massacre, I felt sorrow after the tsunami in Indonesia, I felt sorrow after the terrorist attacks in Spain and India. See Capped? You are wrong. We do feel sorrow, we just don’t feel it equally and you have utterly failed to invalidate this.
[/quote]
We really need say nothing more. To those who post here from other country’s I only need ask you one question: Which country is the first to send aid, (or if not the first the most) when disaster strikes another country?
America and Americans are the most compassionate people on the face of the earth.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Cooper, you seem to feel insulted and indignant at being called insensitive. [/quote]
You are goddamned right I am indignant and insulted. I am insulted and indignant that you would even insinuate that the compassion I feel toward Americans is largely the result of “arbitrary lines” or some sort of national identity based on race. I’m even more indignant that I have to read your bullshit on Thanksgiving of all days. I’m even more indignant that you equate national identity with nationalism in a racial sense.
For once, you are 100% correct. Don’t let it go to your head.