NBA Season 2013-2014

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[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Just looked it up and Shaq’s first three years were 81, 81 & 79 games played. After that he only had four seasons where he played more than 67 games. So even though he made it 18 years, he was always missing pretty significant chunks of the season. [/quote]

Good point, maybe we can say a relatively healthy career. Definitely better than some of the other guys we have discussed to the point were injuries don’t define his career. Still amazes me though. I am not a big guy 6’0" and between about 180 and 200 depending or how much lifting I am doing. When I am closer to 200 a feel it on my body much more even just playing pick-up/IM a like twice a week. I can’t imagine playing a season plus playoffs at 325.

Also WhiteFlash I love the research! I am usually the guy doing research and digging up stats lol.

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It amazing me watching highlights of big men early in their career vs. when then have miles on them.

big Z on the Cavs had a good handle and took the ball up more than a few times, after the foot surgeries he was a stiff. He knew the game, and had a pure shot which kept him in the league.

pay attention to the young Z (notice the awesomely bad uni, and his hair) young Z making movies vs. old Z spot up shooter

Bigs get maybe 5 years of prime physical shape before their bodies betray them.

Wiggen/Parker @ #1

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For the record, i keep using Z as an example because he played for the Cavs, was a skilled 7’, and had the same foot injury as Embiid so i feel it’s relevent towards the #1 pick this year since Embiid is on the top of most boards.

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Great videos Aggv. Awesome early highlights of Shaq. Defenders don’t even bother him lol. Dunking through people, including Alonzo Mourning, pretty impressive. And being on defense with Shaq running the break would be terrifying.

Also I have been hearing Jordan had the same surgery as Embiid his second year in the league. Is this true? I have found old articles talking about a broken foot, but nothing about the particular surgery.

Finally I found an old SI article from 1987, of course stress fractures are nothing new and basketball players are certainly at risk. Quote and link below:

Dr. Lyle Micheli, director of sports medicine at Children’s Hospital in Boston, says that because basketball requires players to work so hard, it is “set up for stress fractures.” Running, jumping, starting and stopping on hard floors night after night puts tremendous torsion on players’ legs. “In running, 2.8 times body weight hits the ground with every stride,” says Dr. Tony Daly, team physician for the Clippers who has also worked with Olympic runners and athletes in almost every sport. “In jumping, it’s 4.5 times body weight, and that figure is for the average athlete, not the NBA player.”

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1065890/3/index.htm

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[quote]JMac31 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Just looked it up and Shaq’s first three years were 81, 81 & 79 games played. After that he only had four seasons where he played more than 67 games. So even though he made it 18 years, he was always missing pretty significant chunks of the season. [/quote]

Good point, maybe we can say a relatively healthy career. Definitely better than some of the other guys we have discussed to the point were injuries don’t define his career. Still amazes me though. I am not a big guy 6’0" and between about 180 and 200 depending or how much lifting I am doing. When I am closer to 200 a feel it on my body much more even just playing pick-up/IM a like twice a week. I can’t imagine playing a season plus playoffs at 325.

Also WhiteFlash I love the research! I am usually the guy doing research and digging up stats lol.[/quote]

In a weird way I think injuries did kind of define Shaq’s career. He was always showing up out of shape(probably because of said injuries) after his early Orlando days, and it wasn’t like people didn’t take note of that. His career was still amazing so it kind of gets swept under the rug(as evidenced by us having to research just how healthy he was just now). That turn of the century team has a legit shot at winning 5 straight titles if Shaq isn’t having toe surgery or whatever every season.

I’m not going to speculate that he would have, but I think he had a legit chance to be the GOAT if he stayed healthy. But part of that title is the inherit health it requires to attain it(like Rice in the NFL who only had 1 major injury somewhat late in his career), and that’s just how it is.

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[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]JMac31 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Just looked it up and Shaq’s first three years were 81, 81 & 79 games played. After that he only had four seasons where he played more than 67 games. So even though he made it 18 years, he was always missing pretty significant chunks of the season. [/quote]

Good point, maybe we can say a relatively healthy career. Definitely better than some of the other guys we have discussed to the point were injuries don’t define his career. Still amazes me though. I am not a big guy 6’0" and between about 180 and 200 depending or how much lifting I am doing. When I am closer to 200 a feel it on my body much more even just playing pick-up/IM a like twice a week. I can’t imagine playing a season plus playoffs at 325.

Also WhiteFlash I love the research! I am usually the guy doing research and digging up stats lol.[/quote]

In a weird way I think injuries did kind of define Shaq’s career. He was always showing up out of shape(probably because of said injuries) after his early Orlando days, and it wasn’t like people didn’t take note of that. His career was still amazing so it kind of gets swept under the rug(as evidenced by us having to research just how healthy he was just now). That turn of the century team has a legit shot at winning 5 straight titles if Shaq isn’t having toe surgery or whatever every season.

I’m not going to speculate that he would have, but I think he had a legit chance to be the GOAT if he stayed healthy. But part of that title is the inherit health it requires to attain it(like Rice in the NFL who only had 1 major injury somewhat late in his career), and that’s just how it is.[/quote]

I think some of Shaq’s injury problems were related to his never really taking care of himself. He didn’t take training seriously and ate like absolute shit. Iverson was the same way, just a foot shorter and 150+ lbs less. Also, I agree that Shaq could’ve been the best center ever and maybe even outright GOAT. Honestly felt like Shaq was an underachiever. He could/should’ve been so much more dominant than he was, which is crazy when you look at what he accomplished.

Jmac, Jordan broke a bone in his foot his second year, but can’t find anything more than that.

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[quote]red04 wrote:
His career was still amazing so it kind of gets swept under the rug (as evidenced by us having to research just how healthy he was just now).[/quote]

Yes, this is what I meant. Definitely wasn’t always healthy, but still had a great career. Some of these other guys basically never even had a career.

[quote]red04 wrote:
I’m not going to speculate that he would have, but I think he had a legit chance to be the GOAT if he stayed healthy.[/quote]

You have a valid point. In three straight finals (2000,2001,2002) he averaged 38.0/16.7, 33.0/15.8, and 36.3/12.3. He had pretty good season averages too. Never over 30 PPG in season, but would have if he could make a free throw. Very, very dominant player.

But like you said often he was out of shape. With Jordan’s work ethic he was always making sure his body was good to go. For example in the ESPN 30 for 30 on the Bad Boys (which is very good, I recommend to any basketball fan) there is a part where they talk about the Pistons physically beating up Jordan in the playoffs. They actually have a clip of Michael saying that is what made him really start to hit the weights.

Ok now I am going to nerd out again with my stats/history/trivia.

Jordan is the only player over 40.0 PPG in the Finals with his 41.0 in the Bulls 1993 Final’s victory over Barkely’s Suns. Shaq is next with his 38.0 in 2000 despite shooting 36 of 93 from the line, that is 38.7%. Jerry West is next with 37.9 in the 1969 finals. West won Final’s MVP, but his Lakers lost to the Celtics. Only losing player to win Final’s MVP.

Other players over 30.0 PPG in the Finals are Jabbar, Olajuwon, Bryant, Wade, Durant.

I do not guarantee my list of those over 30.0 PPG is completely exhaustive, but those listed above definitely averaged over 30.0 PPG. West, Jabbar, and Durant all did so in losing efforts.

Thanks to anyone who stuck around to read all that.

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[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Jmac, Jordan broke a bone in his foot his second year, but can’t find anything more than that.
[/quote]

Thanks. I cannot find anything more either. I just remember hearing or reading something in the last few days saying Jordan had the same surgery. Now I cannot remember the source.

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I consider Shaq a top 10 all time player as is, but god damn if he actually cared about his fitness and free throws he would have been the goat.

I dont recall the exact quote but i remember Barkley saying that in all his years, Shaq was the only guy he thought was big.

What’s with big guys not being able to shoot free throws in NBA? (said in Seinfeld voice) How many more points would Shaq have scored if he could hit free throws…

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[quote]Aggv wrote:
I consider Shaq a top 10 all time player as is, but god damn if he actually cared about his fitness and free throws he would have been the goat.

I dont recall the exact quote but i remember Barkley saying that in all his years, Shaq was the only guy he thought was big.

What’s with big guys not being able to shoot free throws in NBA? (said in Seinfeld voice) How many more points would Shaq have scored if he could hit free throws…[/quote]

Jordan said that the first time he saw Shaq in person is the only time he’d ever been intimidated on a basketball court.

Was looking at the stats and Shaq’s rookie year he shot 59% from the line. He never got close to that again. He also grabbed 13.9 rebounds and blocked 3 shots a game that year, which were both career highs by a fairly wide margin. After that he started focusing on other shit (rapping, movies, whatever) and basketball seemed to kind of take a backseat. He got by on talent and physical dominance. Not saying he didn’t take the game seriously 'cause I’m sure he did, just don’t think he ever put in the work that the other greats did.

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[quote]Aggv wrote:
What’s with big guys not being able to shoot free throws in NBA? (said in Seinfeld voice) How many more points would Shaq have scored if he could hit free throws…[/quote]

I watched a TNT brodcasted with Shaq and he said something to the effect of ‘The only thing in his career that he regrets is not taking free throws seriously because he left thousands of points on the court and could have been the all time scoring leader of he was decent at FT’s’ (obviously paraphrasing)

I’ll second or third whatver white flash was saying, as a life long Lakers fan I’ve seen it first hand MANY times… Shaq would legit “turn it on” when he needed it. He could absolutely dominate a game if he wanted. 30+ points, 12+ rebounds and 2+ blocks could have been his season average numbers if he really wanted to make that happen. He would even nail 3/4/5 free throws in a row in crunch time of a playoff game but during a middle of the season game he wouldn’t care and just throw up line drive bricks lol

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What if Jordan could shoot 3’s like Peja Stojakovic? Those hypothetical games don’t have any merit in my opinion unless there is evidence the player in question could actually improve an aspect of their game that they were lacking in i.e. for Shaq I’d have to see evidence his FT% increased in a season, or period of time when he employed the use of a shooting coach and that his numbers reverted back to mediocre when he gave up working with that shooting coach.

Otherwise it’s like mixing NBA2K14 with reality. Shaq was big and didn’t have the touch in his hands and flexion required to be a good shooter. However those same hands and arms allowed him to bang down low like no-one in NBA history.

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[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
What if Jordan could shoot 3’s like Peja Stojakovic? Those hypothetical games don’t have any merit in my opinion unless there is evidence the player in question could actually improve an aspect of their game that they were lacking in i.e. for Shaq I’d have to see evidence his FT% increased in a season, or period of time when he employed the use of a shooting coach and that his numbers reverted back to mediocre when he gave up working with that shooting coach.

Otherwise it’s like mixing NBA2K14 with reality. Shaq was big and didn’t have the touch in his hands and flexion required to be a good shooter. However those same hands and arms allowed him to bang down low like no-one in NBA history. [/quote]

Check the Hack-a-Shaq wiki page or the Ed Palubinskas wiki page. Shaq did work with coach Ed Palubinskas for a period of time and improvement was seen. Shaq stopped working with him and regressed to poorer shooting. Shaq was stubborn or proud or whatever. No matter the reason he didn’t work more I don’t have any doubts he could have shot better from the line with more work. Shaq was 52.7% in his career, I don’t think it is unreasonable to the ask anyone professional or even college level player to be above 60% or even 65% bare minimum. Free throws are just about the only thing in basketball you can identically (except for crowd/pressure) reproduce in practice.

I agree hypothetical games don’t matter, but I do not like the Jordan example. Jordan did not attempt many 3s and did not need to. He is the all time leader in PPG and fifth all time in FTs made. Getting to the line was a huge part of his game. Working on 3s and taking more would almost certainly prevent MJ from getting the the foul line as often as he did. The difference is there is no doubt O’Neal would benefit from improve FTs.

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Imo, Karl Malone is the poster child for what hard work and practice can do for your free throw shooting, and the mid-range jumper. Shaq was just not motivated to improve that is the bottom line.

Also, most of these 7 foot+ centers “look” funny or off, because they got that tall due to some genetic anomaly (that’s just my layman’s description). That’s why they’re prone to physical issues. Think Gheorghe Muresan & Manute Bol as extreme examples; Yao Ming & Oden have the tell-tale overly prominent facial bone structure. Olajuwon & Shaq were two guys who you could shrink down to 6 feet and would still look “normal”. Tim Duncan too, though he’s not as tall.

Oh, in reference to Whiteflash’s comment about the grainy footage of the next great, big european dude who would set the NBA on fire etc., the poster child and the end of that era was the great, the one and only Darko Milicic LMAO, selected second overall in 2003! (still only 29!)

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Remember Tskitisvili (sure I butchered the shit outta that)? Remember reading before the draft that not only could he reportedly dunk from the foul line and apparently was shooting the lights out in workouts, but he was a baton twirler and teams were pumped about his hand eye coordination. I’m not making that up. He went 5th and was outta the league in a few years.

Apparently the Rockets are set on adding a third major piece. Hopefully they come to their senses on Anthony. Terrible idea. I actually think Bosh would be a great fit if they can get him.

Edit- just looked it up an apparently the Nuggets drafted him without EVER seeing him play an actual game, just private workouts against inferior comp. Fucking crazy.

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1 - Very true about Shaquille shooting FTs well in the most important games.

2 - I do question whether he would’ve passed Abdul-Jabbar, though. And even if he did, there’s no chance Kevin Durant doesn’t end up as top scorer of all-time.

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Holy Knicks trade.

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[quote]chillain wrote:
1 - Very true about Shaquille shooting FTs well in the most important games.

2 - I do question whether he would’ve passed Abdul-Jabbar, though. And even if he did, there’s no chance Kevin Durant doesn’t end up as top scorer of all-time.
[/quote]

Durant’s definitely got a shot. Was looking at his stats and didn’t realize how durable he is. Don’t think he’s ever missed more than 7 games in a season. For a lightly built guy who takes a fair amount of contact, that’s nuts.

Also, Rockets traded Asik last night. They’re freeing up space for something big…

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[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
1 - Very true about Shaquille shooting FTs well in the most important games.

2 - I do question whether he would’ve passed Abdul-Jabbar, though. And even if he did, there’s no chance Kevin Durant doesn’t end up as top scorer of all-time.
[/quote]

Durant’s definitely got a shot. Was looking at his stats and didn’t realize how durable he is. Don’t think he’s ever missed more than 7 games in a season. For a lightly built guy who takes a fair amount of contact, that’s nuts.

Also, Rockets traded Asik last night. They’re freeing up space for something big…[/quote]

He also only “wasted” one year in the NCAAs. (versus three “wasted” years for those bigs)

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Speaking of Kevin Durant and since the draft is tonight. . . Remember when people were making a big deal that KD could not bench 185 lol?