Yeah this is ugly
[quote]overstand wrote:
Yeah this is ugly[/quote]
I’ve counted 3 air balls.
I watched the whole game and the Boston-OKC game before it.
The game could have gone either way. If it was in Dallas Mavs would have won.
But man the Lakers have a weak bench.
Carlisle should have put in Cardinal to sink some threes.
It was a sloppy game all around, easily could have gone either way. I’m glad the Mavs are getting it together, tonight they showed they can still hang with the best in the West. Odom played pretty decently too I thought, hit some shots and about 2 or 3 of his turnovers were actually slick passes that his teammates weren’t ready for.
I watched the OKC Boston game too, Westbrook was really good.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
I’ll say it again, nobody is saying he’s a bad player. He’s great, top 10 easily, he’s just not the best anymore.[/quote]
For the life of me I can not understand why Lakers fans think calling someone a top 5 or 10 player in the world is an insult. There are some damn good basketball players right now.
He certainly WAS the best for a while.
The argument for him being the best seems to revolve around his making the hardest shots. I would much rather a guy CREATE EASY SHOTS than make hard ones. That’s why LeBron’s 35pts look less impressive than Kobe’s but will always be done more efficiently (note: I’m not saying I’d take LBJ in a one-game-for-all-the-marbles, so don’t put words in my mouth, I’m just making a broader point about stars).
From what little I’ve seen of Kobe this year - I don’t get many Lakers games in DC - it seems to me like he still picks his spots on D and uses it to rest up a lot, instead of manning up the whole time he’s in. I’m sorry but that’s part of being the best player in the world.
LeBron is a better passer, scorer, rebounder, and defender than Kobe plus is bigger and faster. Kobe is a better shooter and better in the clutch. For a season, and a whole playoffs, I take LBJ. For the last 5 minutes… honestly, I would take Chris Paul. He is unguardable with the game on the line.[/quote]
You are out of your fucking mind if you think James is a better scorer, and Bryant plays much better man D. Some of the shit ya’ll are saying is ridiculous.[/quote]
First off, there is more to D than man-to-man, and help D matters. Secondly Bryant can do better in spurts but he doesn’t defend with 100% intensity all game.
Also, James is taking a full 6 less shots per game than Kobe and only scoring one less point. I’d take 30pts on 18 shots over 31pts on 24 shots. Just sayin.
edit: I’ll say it until I’m blue in the face. Creating easy shots is better for your team than making difficult ones. Kobe is the best tough-shot maker in the NBA but when he was the best player in the league, he didn’t have to make tough shots because he created more open looks.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Dude, he was poking fun 'cause he doesn’t watch games and I do.[/quote]
I was poking fun because you SAID I didn’t watch games. You don’t actually still believe that do you?[/quote]
Dude, you ADMITTED you don’t watch much ball other than the Wizards. Do I have to go digging and bring it out?[/quote]
I said I see more wizards games than any other single team, I didn’t say I don’t watch much outside of them though. Big difference in verbiage there bro namath. If I watch 10 wizards games and 3 of every other team over the course of a month, that statement is true while I also am watching a fair amount of total basketball.
I would like to watch more than I do but I share a tv with a roommate who is into househunting, food and culture shows… yes he is a dude… sigh.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Dude, he was poking fun 'cause he doesn’t watch games and I do.[/quote]
I was poking fun because you SAID I didn’t watch games. You don’t actually still believe that do you?[/quote]
Dude, you ADMITTED you don’t watch much ball other than the Wizards. Do I have to go digging and bring it out?[/quote]
I said I see more wizards games than any other single team, I didn’t say I don’t watch much outside of them though. Big difference in verbiage there bro namath. If I watch 10 wizards games and 3 of every other team over the course of a month, that statement is true while I also am watching a fair amount of total basketball.
I would like to watch more than I do but I share a tv with a roommate who is into ho\usehunting, food and culture shows… yes he is a dude… sigh.[/quote]
You’re the only person in this thread who watches a team worse than mine.
For some reason I get enjoyment out of that.
Raps 4-10
Wizards 1-12
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Dude, he was poking fun 'cause he doesn’t watch games and I do.[/quote]
I was poking fun because you SAID I didn’t watch games. You don’t actually still believe that do you?[/quote]
Dude, you ADMITTED you don’t watch much ball other than the Wizards. Do I have to go digging and bring it out?[/quote]
I said I see more wizards games than any other single team, I didn’t say I don’t watch much outside of them though. Big difference in verbiage there bro namath. If I watch 10 wizards games and 3 of every other team over the course of a month, that statement is true while I also am watching a fair amount of total basketball.
I would like to watch more than I do but I share a tv with a roommate who is into ho\usehunting, food and culture shows… yes he is a dude… sigh.[/quote]
You’re the only person in this thread who watches a team worse than mine.
For some reason I get enjoyment out of that.
Raps 4-10
Wizards 1-12[/quote]
Hahaha, sad thing is I don’t even root for them. I watch them mainly because a) I get to watch the opposing team, and b) tv sucks worse than Wizards basketball.
They really are just excruciatingly painful to watch though.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
First off, there is more to D than man-to-man, and help D matters. Secondly Bryant can do better in spurts but he doesn’t defend with 100% intensity all game.
[/quote]
Can you please list all the defenders that made the all-defensive team on the strength of their zone and/or “help” defense?
Defenders are measured first by their ability to guard their man. Period. If someone is a better defender, they are a better defender on their man.
If you can defend, you can “help”. If you can defend, you can play zone.
If you can help or play zone, you can’t necessarily “defend”. LOTS of otherwise great players couldn’t make the NBA b/c they could not guard anyone.
^^ Dwight Howard, 3 time DPOY, is a better help defender than post defender (though his post defense is still very good). He gets most of his blocks on help defense.
IMO great help defense is a lot rarer than great man defense. It takes more skill/situational awareness/basketball IQ. Good man defense just takes athleticism and hustle. There are guys like KG and Bruce Bowen who are/were known for outstanding man D, but the margin between them and the rest of the league is a lot slimmer than the margin between Dwight Howard and the rest of the league when it comes to help D.
Kobe shouldn’t have been 1st team all defense the last couple of years. He’s a good defender, but Dwayne Wade is far superior. Kobe is getting named based on reputation, not results.
Anyone here play NBA 2K12?
[quote]overstand wrote:
^^ Dwight Howard, 3 time DPOY, is a better help defender than post defender (though his post defense is still very good). He gets most of his blocks on help defense.
IMO great help defense is a lot rarer than great man defense. It takes more skill/situational awareness/basketball IQ. Good man defense just takes athleticism and hustle. There are guys like KG and Bruce Bowen who are/were known for outstanding man D, but the margin between them and the rest of the league is a lot slimmer than the margin between Dwight Howard and the rest of the league when it comes to help D.
Kobe shouldn’t have been 1st team all defense the last couple of years. He’s a good defender, but Dwayne Wade is far superior. Kobe is getting named based on reputation, not results.[/quote]
You couldn’t be more wrong. It takes infinitely more skill and situational awareness to be a better man defender. All Howard does is rotate when his teammates get beat and alters/blocks shots. His man defense is nothing special which is kind of sad considering there are no real centers in todays game. I’d argue that Howard has been named dpoy based off name and reputation. Being the beat help defender in todays NBA is like being the smartest kid on the short bus. Being a serious man defender is so much tougher with todays athletes, scouting reports, the level of perimeter talent, etc…
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
^^ Dwight Howard, 3 time DPOY, is a better help defender than post defender (though his post defense is still very good). He gets most of his blocks on help defense.
IMO great help defense is a lot rarer than great man defense. It takes more skill/situational awareness/basketball IQ. Good man defense just takes athleticism and hustle. There are guys like KG and Bruce Bowen who are/were known for outstanding man D, but the margin between them and the rest of the league is a lot slimmer than the margin between Dwight Howard and the rest of the league when it comes to help D.
Kobe shouldn’t have been 1st team all defense the last couple of years. He’s a good defender, but Dwayne Wade is far superior. Kobe is getting named based on reputation, not results.[/quote]
You couldn’t be more wrong. It takes infinitely more skill and situational awareness to be a better man defender. All Howard does is rotate when his teammates get beat and alters/blocks shots. His man defense is nothing special which is kind of sad considering there are no real centers in todays game. I’d argue that Howard has been named dpoy based off name and reputation. Being the beat help defender in todays NBA is like being the smartest kid on the short bus. Being a serious man defender is so much tougher with todays athletes, scouting reports, the level of perimeter talent, etc…[/quote]
Disagree. Even the worst defenders in the NBA are capable of playing good man D. Steve Nash even does it in spurts. They just don’t do it because it takes a lot of energy they could better use on offense, which is why energy guys who come off the bench often get a reputation for good D. Man D is easily thwarted by screens and off the ball movement.
Dwight doesn’t just block/alter shots either, he controls passing lanes, prevents drives and generally just DOMINATES the paint. You may disagree that help defense is less important than man defense, but you can not deny the impact Howard has on D.
The fact that Dwight can turn a team of defensive scrubs into a top 5 league defensive team speaks volumes. It also makes this man D vs help D argument irrelevant.
At the end of the day, it’s overall impact on the court, what translates into the most wins. In this respect, no one beats Dwight.
You could also argue that since there are not many real centres left in the game, what Dwight does is even MORE valuable.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
First off, there is more to D than man-to-man, and help D matters. Secondly Bryant can do better in spurts but he doesn’t defend with 100% intensity all game.
[/quote]
Can you please list all the defenders that made the all-defensive team on the strength of their zone and/or “help” defense?
Defenders are measured first by their ability to guard their man. Period. If someone is a better defender, they are a better defender on their man.
If you can defend, you can “help”. If you can defend, you can play zone.
If you can help or play zone, you can’t necessarily “defend”. LOTS of otherwise great players couldn’t make the NBA b/c they could not guard anyone. [/quote]
Dwight Howard is considered the best defensive player in the NBA largely because he helps and alters or blocks nearly every shot at the rim put up by any opposing player.
Also, particularly in regards to the Kobe defense vs. LBJ defense argument, a point I forgot to mention is that LBJ can adequately guard any position on the floor (not top tier centers or point guards obviously, but he can guard most to at least an acceptable level) which is a huge advantage. In particular he plays just as good of defense against PFs as he does on SFs (at least from when I’ve seen him guard PFs) which can create huge matchup problems for the other team on offense.
This isn’t to say Kobe isn’t having an awesome year. He certainly is so far. There is just no rational argument for saying he’s better than LeBron BESIDES LBJ’s repeated terrible performances in the last few minutes of important games. That argument is totally valid, all other arguments are only made by people who are fans of Kobe and not objective about him.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
^^ Dwight Howard, 3 time DPOY, is a better help defender than post defender (though his post defense is still very good). He gets most of his blocks on help defense.
IMO great help defense is a lot rarer than great man defense. It takes more skill/situational awareness/basketball IQ. Good man defense just takes athleticism and hustle. There are guys like KG and Bruce Bowen who are/were known for outstanding man D, but the margin between them and the rest of the league is a lot slimmer than the margin between Dwight Howard and the rest of the league when it comes to help D.
Kobe shouldn’t have been 1st team all defense the last couple of years. He’s a good defender, but Dwayne Wade is far superior. Kobe is getting named based on reputation, not results.[/quote]
You couldn’t be more wrong. It takes infinitely more skill and situational awareness to be a better man defender. All Howard does is rotate when his teammates get beat and alters/blocks shots. His man defense is nothing special which is kind of sad considering there are no real centers in todays game. I’d argue that Howard has been named dpoy based off name and reputation. Being the beat help defender in todays NBA is like being the smartest kid on the short bus. Being a serious man defender is so much tougher with todays athletes, scouting reports, the level of perimeter talent, etc…[/quote]
Why on earth would DH spend all his time working on his man-to-man post defense game when a) there is no center good enough to exploit it and b) Orlando’s entire defensive scheme is built on the assumption he will help and contest everyone’s shot?
The bottom line is Orlando is routinely a top-5 defense with 4 lousy man-to-man defenders plus Dwight (who is apparently also not good at man-to-man). If that was the most important part of defense, how does ORL routinely rank among the league’s elite as a team?
The argument that Dwight is overrated on D holds less than zero water.
Im raging so hard at the tv right now I have to vent
I don’t know if you guys watched the Mavs-Clippers game, but it was super close, Mavs were up by 1 with 5 seconds left and Terry tips the inbounds pass out of bounds. Everybody is focusing on the original tip and nobody sees that the ball clearly bounces once in bounds and then hits Mo Williams on the arm before hitting out of bounds. Should have been Mavs ball and a Mavs win.
Here’s a video. See how Hubie and the refs are all focusing on whether Terry tipped it and no one sees it hit Mo Williams at 13 secs.
[quote]overstand wrote:
Disagree. Even the worst defenders in the NBA are capable of playing good man D. [/quote]
Dude, really, you’re going to have to turn in your NBA season pass. This was just horribly uninformed.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
First off, there is more to D than man-to-man, and help D matters. Secondly Bryant can do better in spurts but he doesn’t defend with 100% intensity all game.
[/quote]
Can you please list all the defenders that made the all-defensive team on the strength of their zone and/or “help” defense?
Defenders are measured first by their ability to guard their man. Period. If someone is a better defender, they are a better defender on their man.
If you can defend, you can “help”. If you can defend, you can play zone.
If you can help or play zone, you can’t necessarily “defend”. LOTS of otherwise great players couldn’t make the NBA b/c they could not guard anyone. [/quote]
Dwight Howard is considered the best defensive player in the NBA largely because he helps and alters or blocks nearly every shot at the rim put up by any opposing player.
Also, particularly in regards to the Kobe defense vs. LBJ defense argument, a point I forgot to mention is that LBJ can adequately guard any position on the floor (not top tier centers or point guards obviously, but he can guard most to at least an acceptable level) which is a huge advantage. In particular he plays just as good of defense against PFs as he does on SFs (at least from when I’ve seen him guard PFs) which can create huge matchup problems for the other team on offense.
This isn’t to say Kobe isn’t having an awesome year. He certainly is so far. There is just no rational argument for saying he’s better than LeBron BESIDES LBJ’s repeated terrible performances in the last few minutes of important games. That argument is totally valid, all other arguments are only made by people who are fans of Kobe and not objective about him.[/quote]
The counter-argument of Howard is a red-herring. Big men patrol the paint - it is the essence of a big man/defender - not man to man defense. Take the big men out of the mix, and I’ll wait for you to provide me the list of defenders that made all-defensive team on the strength of their help defense. I won’t hold my breath.
I have no opinion about the relative defensive capabilities of LBJ v. Kobe. They can both defend. After that, it’s a beauty contest and LBJ will certainly have some advantages due to his length and size.