NBA Lockout

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621

[quote]scj119 wrote:
The bottom line is Orlando is routinely a top-5 defense with 4 lousy man-to-man defenders plus Dwight (who is apparently also not good at man-to-man). If that was the most important part of defense, how does ORL routinely rank among the league’s elite as a team?

The argument that Dwight is overrated on D holds less than zero water.[/quote]

When you have a huge man like him that can defend, it’s a matter of funneling to him - taking some things away and forcing them elsewhere (which is infinitely easier than just guarding someone straight up). This is basic basketball. There is no “magic” to the “defensive prowess” of the Magic.

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[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
The bottom line is Orlando is routinely a top-5 defense with 4 lousy man-to-man defenders plus Dwight (who is apparently also not good at man-to-man). If that was the most important part of defense, how does ORL routinely rank among the league’s elite as a team?

The argument that Dwight is overrated on D holds less than zero water.[/quote]

When you have a huge man like him that can defend, it’s a matter of funneling to him - taking some things away and forcing them elsewhere (which is infinitely easier than just guarding someone straight up). This is basic basketball. There is no “magic” to the “defensive prowess” of the Magic. [/quote]

Ok so if it’s so easy how come no other teams do it?

Because Howard is the only center in the NBA good enough on D that funneling to him is an effective defense. I’m not saying it’s strategically complicated. I’m saying you have to have a center capable enough to make this strategy a positive expected value on each possession.

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[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
The bottom line is Orlando is routinely a top-5 defense with 4 lousy man-to-man defenders plus Dwight (who is apparently also not good at man-to-man). If that was the most important part of defense, how does ORL routinely rank among the league’s elite as a team?

The argument that Dwight is overrated on D holds less than zero water.[/quote]

When you have a huge man like him that can defend, it’s a matter of funneling to him - taking some things away and forcing them elsewhere (which is infinitely easier than just guarding someone straight up). This is basic basketball. There is no “magic” to the “defensive prowess” of the Magic. [/quote]

And who else in the NBA can you build a defensive system around that will yield equally effective results?

No one is saying Dwight doesn’t rely on his teammates, after all basketball is a team sport.

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[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

First off, there is more to D than man-to-man, and help D matters. Secondly Bryant can do better in spurts but he doesn’t defend with 100% intensity all game.
[/quote]

Can you please list all the defenders that made the all-defensive team on the strength of their zone and/or “help” defense?

Defenders are measured first by their ability to guard their man. Period. If someone is a better defender, they are a better defender on their man.

If you can defend, you can “help”. If you can defend, you can play zone.

If you can help or play zone, you can’t necessarily “defend”. LOTS of otherwise great players couldn’t make the NBA b/c they could not guard anyone. [/quote]

Dwight Howard is considered the best defensive player in the NBA largely because he helps and alters or blocks nearly every shot at the rim put up by any opposing player.

Also, particularly in regards to the Kobe defense vs. LBJ defense argument, a point I forgot to mention is that LBJ can adequately guard any position on the floor (not top tier centers or point guards obviously, but he can guard most to at least an acceptable level) which is a huge advantage. In particular he plays just as good of defense against PFs as he does on SFs (at least from when I’ve seen him guard PFs) which can create huge matchup problems for the other team on offense.

This isn’t to say Kobe isn’t having an awesome year. He certainly is so far. There is just no rational argument for saying he’s better than LeBron BESIDES LBJ’s repeated terrible performances in the last few minutes of important games. That argument is totally valid, all other arguments are only made by people who are fans of Kobe and not objective about him.[/quote]

The counter-argument of Howard is a red-herring. Big men patrol the paint - it is the essence of a big man/defender - not man to man defense. Take the big men out of the mix, and I’ll wait for you to provide me the list of defenders that made all-defensive team on the strength of their help defense. I won’t hold my breath.

I have no opinion about the relative defensive capabilities of LBJ v. Kobe. They can both defend. After that, it’s a beauty contest and LBJ will certainly have some advantages due to his length and size.
[/quote]

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Can you please list all the defenders that made the all-defensive team on the strength of their zone and/or “help” defense?

Defenders are measured first by their ability to guard their man. Period. If someone is a better defender, they are a better defender on their man.
[/quote]

Red herring? You did not say “Can you please list all the defenders except centers that made the all-defensive team on the strength of their zone and/or “help” defense”.

I don’t agree that Kobe guards wings better than LBJ, but reasonable minds can disagree. LBJ guards PGs better, PFs much better, and Cs adequately.

Help defense is why the Celtics were so good for several years, and why the Bulls are now. Granted you really need a full team buy-in, but it is extremely important and anyone who actually know anything about basketball would agree.

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[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
The bottom line is Orlando is routinely a top-5 defense with 4 lousy man-to-man defenders plus Dwight (who is apparently also not good at man-to-man). If that was the most important part of defense, how does ORL routinely rank among the league’s elite as a team?

The argument that Dwight is overrated on D holds less than zero water.[/quote]

When you have a huge man like him that can defend, it’s a matter of funneling to him - taking some things away and forcing them elsewhere (which is infinitely easier than just guarding someone straight up). This is basic basketball. There is no “magic” to the “defensive prowess” of the Magic. [/quote]

Ok so if it’s so easy how come no other teams do it?

Because Howard is the only center in the NBA good enough on D that funneling to him is an effective defense. I’m not saying it’s strategically complicated. I’m saying you have to have a center capable enough to make this strategy a positive expected value on each possession.[/quote]

Because there is and always has been a shortage of such big men.

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[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

First off, there is more to D than man-to-man, and help D matters. Secondly Bryant can do better in spurts but he doesn’t defend with 100% intensity all game.
[/quote]

Can you please list all the defenders that made the all-defensive team on the strength of their zone and/or “help” defense?

Defenders are measured first by their ability to guard their man. Period. If someone is a better defender, they are a better defender on their man.

If you can defend, you can “help”. If you can defend, you can play zone.

If you can help or play zone, you can’t necessarily “defend”. LOTS of otherwise great players couldn’t make the NBA b/c they could not guard anyone. [/quote]

Dwight Howard is considered the best defensive player in the NBA largely because he helps and alters or blocks nearly every shot at the rim put up by any opposing player.

Also, particularly in regards to the Kobe defense vs. LBJ defense argument, a point I forgot to mention is that LBJ can adequately guard any position on the floor (not top tier centers or point guards obviously, but he can guard most to at least an acceptable level) which is a huge advantage. In particular he plays just as good of defense against PFs as he does on SFs (at least from when I’ve seen him guard PFs) which can create huge matchup problems for the other team on offense.

This isn’t to say Kobe isn’t having an awesome year. He certainly is so far. There is just no rational argument for saying he’s better than LeBron BESIDES LBJ’s repeated terrible performances in the last few minutes of important games. That argument is totally valid, all other arguments are only made by people who are fans of Kobe and not objective about him.[/quote]

The counter-argument of Howard is a red-herring. Big men patrol the paint - it is the essence of a big man/defender - not man to man defense. Take the big men out of the mix, and I’ll wait for you to provide me the list of defenders that made all-defensive team on the strength of their help defense. I won’t hold my breath.

I have no opinion about the relative defensive capabilities of LBJ v. Kobe. They can both defend. After that, it’s a beauty contest and LBJ will certainly have some advantages due to his length and size.
[/quote]

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Can you please list all the defenders that made the all-defensive team on the strength of their zone and/or “help” defense?

Defenders are measured first by their ability to guard their man. Period. If someone is a better defender, they are a better defender on their man.
[/quote]

Red herring? You did not say “Can you please list all the defenders except centers that made the all-defensive team on the strength of their zone and/or “help” defense”.

I don’t agree that Kobe guards wings better than LBJ, but reasonable minds can disagree. LBJ guards PGs better, PFs much better, and Cs adequately.

Help defense is why the Celtics were so good for several years, and why the Bulls are now. Granted you really need a full team buy-in, but it is extremely important and anyone who actually know anything about basketball would agree.[/quote]

you named an EXCEPTION. my original point stands.

and you’ve moved the goalpost. now you’re talking team defense.

we were talking individual defensive abilities. any hump can “help”. the most difficult thing to do at the pro level, perhaps behind creating your own shot, is to guard your man. lots of great college players couldn’t cut it b/c they couldn’t make their own shot. lots of great college players couldn’t cut it b/c they couldn’t defend.

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just caught highlight of last-second finish to last night’s DAL-LAC matchup: Dallas Mavericks vs. LA Clippers - NBA Game Recap - January 18, 2012 | ESPN

despite J Kidd’s numerous 1st and 2nd-team All-Defense awards, that last mental lapse was pretty unforgivable (and not unlike Sheed allowing Big Shot Rob Horry to get it back off the inbounds in that SA-DET Finals game way back when)

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[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
we were talking individual defensive abilities. any hump can “help”. the most difficult thing to do at the pro level, perhaps behind creating your own shot, is to guard your man. lots of great college players couldn’t cut it b/c they couldn’t make their own shot. lots of great college players couldn’t cut it b/c they couldn’t defend. [/quote]

Anyone CAN help. Few do it (or effectively). Besides, I never said help defense is MORE important than man defense, I just said it’s part of the picture.

629

Relevant: Interesting blog on ESPN about LBJ vs. Kobe. As expected, the only of the 5 participants to pick Kobe is a Lakers fan (JA Adande). It fits what I’ve been saying that the ONLY people in the country still arguing that Kobe is the best player in the NBA are Lakers fans. I have yet to find someone who doesn’t care about the Lakers to make this argument.

630

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Relevant: Interesting blog on ESPN about LBJ vs. Kobe. As expected, the only of the 5 participants to pick Kobe is a Lakers fan (JA Adande). It fits what I’ve been saying that the ONLY people in the country still arguing that Kobe is the best player in the NBA are Lakers fans. I have yet to find someone who doesn’t care about the Lakers to make this argument.[/quote]

EVEN MORE RELEVANT: In a recent poll among 20-something players (you know, the guys actually out there on the court) only ONE person picked LBJ over Bryant, and it was John Wall who’s been in the league a year, is friends with James and is fronting a 1 and 12 squad. I don’t know why you try to bash Bryant, but he’s still the best. I’ll take the players vote EVERY SINGLE TIME over some fatshit writer who’s never played a day in his life.

631

I’ve heard stupid shit come out of both players and writers mouths.

Backup your opinion with solid points.

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[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Relevant: Interesting blog on ESPN about LBJ vs. Kobe. As expected, the only of the 5 participants to pick Kobe is a Lakers fan (JA Adande). It fits what I’ve been saying that the ONLY people in the country still arguing that Kobe is the best player in the NBA are Lakers fans. I have yet to find someone who doesn’t care about the Lakers to make this argument.[/quote]

EVEN MORE RELEVANT: In a recent poll among 20-something players (you know, the guys actually out there on the court) only ONE person picked LBJ over Bryant, and it was John Wall who’s been in the league a year, is friends with James and is fronting a 1 and 12 squad. I don’t know why you try to bash Bryant, but he’s still the best. I’ll take the players vote EVERY SINGLE TIME over some fatshit writer who’s never played a day in his life.[/quote]

Where is this poll, besides in your head?

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By the way, I’m not just being a dick - I’ve been googling NBA player polls and have found nothing about best player.

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[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Relevant: Interesting blog on ESPN about LBJ vs. Kobe. As expected, the only of the 5 participants to pick Kobe is a Lakers fan (JA Adande). It fits what I’ve been saying that the ONLY people in the country still arguing that Kobe is the best player in the NBA are Lakers fans. I have yet to find someone who doesn’t care about the Lakers to make this argument.[/quote]

EVEN MORE RELEVANT: In a recent poll among 20-something players (you know, the guys actually out there on the court) only ONE person picked LBJ over Bryant, and it was John Wall who’s been in the league a year, is friends with James and is fronting a 1 and 12 squad. I don’t know why you try to bash Bryant, but he’s still the best. I’ll take the players vote EVERY SINGLE TIME over some fatshit writer who’s never played a day in his life.[/quote]

Where is this poll, besides in your head?
[/quote]

Good god you’re a jackass. I’m posting from my phone so I can’t post a link. I’ll do it tomorrow while I’m at work.

635

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Relevant: Interesting blog on ESPN about LBJ vs. Kobe. As expected, the only of the 5 participants to pick Kobe is a Lakers fan (JA Adande). It fits what I’ve been saying that the ONLY people in the country still arguing that Kobe is the best player in the NBA are Lakers fans. I have yet to find someone who doesn’t care about the Lakers to make this argument.[/quote]

EVEN MORE RELEVANT: In a recent poll among 20-something players (you know, the guys actually out there on the court) only ONE person picked LBJ over Bryant, and it was John Wall who’s been in the league a year, is friends with James and is fronting a 1 and 12 squad. I don’t know why you try to bash Bryant, but he’s still the best. I’ll take the players vote EVERY SINGLE TIME over some fatshit writer who’s never played a day in his life.[/quote]

Where is this poll, besides in your head?
[/quote]

Good god you’re a jackass. I’m posting from my phone so I can’t post a link. I’ll do it tomorrow while I’m at work.
[/quote]

Lol sorry. I’m legitmately curious because you keep mentioning this but I’ve never seen a link.

636

A couple year old player poll:

SI Players NBA Poll: Which opposing NBA player would you most like to have on your team?

LeBron James, Cavaliers F…32%
Kobe Bryant, Lakers G…13%
Steve Nash, Suns G…8%
Kevin Garnett, Celtics F…7%
Chris Paul, Hornets G…7%

[Based on a survey of 190 NBA players]

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WHO DO YOU WANT SHOOTING WITH THE GAME ON THE LINE?

Kobe Bryant, Lakers G 74%

Kevin Durant, Thunder F 8%

Dwyane Wade, Heat G 3%

Ray Allen, Celtics G 2%

Dirk Nowitzki, Mavericks F 2%

Based on 166 NBA players who responded to SI’s survey

No surprise here.

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[quote]scj119 wrote:
Relevant: Interesting blog on ESPN about LBJ vs. Kobe. As expected, the only of the 5 participants to pick Kobe is a Lakers fan (JA Adande). It fits what I’ve been saying that the ONLY people in the country still arguing that Kobe is the best player in the NBA are Lakers fans. I have yet to find someone who doesn’t care about the Lakers to make this argument.[/quote]

who cares what a fan says? barkley claims lbj is the best. i’m inclined to hear his arguments b/c he played. who cares about the opinion of “JA Adande” or any other fan for that matter?

I don’t care about the Lakers and I’ll say Kobe is the better player, right now. LBJ is obviously on the rise, Kobe on the decline.

but my definition of “better player” may differ from yours. I’m not talking about building my team around him. I’m not talking about over the course of a ridiculous and often meaningless 80-something game season. I’m not interested in comparing different positions.

One game. One and done. Who would I pick? Assuming they play the same position, Kobe is my pick. To me, that’s the better “player” among the two.

listen, it’s easy to pick lbj. younger, on the rise, etc.

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[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

I’ll do it tomorrow while I’m at work.
[/quote]

funniest (unintentional) post of the thread.

“I’ll goof off tomorrow while I’m at work damnit!”

LOL

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[quote]therajraj wrote:
WHO DO YOU WANT SHOOTING WITH THE GAME ON THE LINE?

Kobe Bryant, Lakers G 74%

Kevin Durant, Thunder F 8%

Dwyane Wade, Heat G 3%

Ray Allen, Celtics G 2%

Dirk Nowitzki, Mavericks F 2%

Based on 166 NBA players who responded to SI’s survey

No surprise here.[/quote]

This is the more telling of the two “polls” you posted. In the first, lots of things can come into play, like whether you like the guy professionally and whether you think you’ll get the damn ball (especially true in Kobe’s case).

Like I’ve been harping on…one game, one and done, who do you pick - that’s a poll I’d like to see.