Myth of Americans Living Beyond Their Means

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Looking at the rust belt , I am not optimistic about America’s ability to recover from a major industry loss. Look at all the lazy Chicago , Detroit threads . It is not the loss people see ,it’s those damned lazy Democrats [/quote]

How many generations have to go by before lamenting the past is the fault of those sitting on their hands not improving their life?

I’m not one to buy into the notion that everyone in these cities are lazy, that is silly thinking and the issue isn’t that black or white. I also don’t buy into the notion it is the governments job (ie: tax payers) to fix their problems for them. It isn’t that black and white either.

When it comes down to it, just because it is America doesn’t mean life = easy street. No, even though we are free and this nation is exceptional, we still have to work, and for most of us, work damn hard to get further ahead than our parents did.

42

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Looking at the rust belt , I am not optimistic about America’s ability to recover from a major industry loss. Look at all the lazy Chicago , Detroit threads . It is not the loss people see ,it’s those damned lazy Democrats [/quote]

How many generations have to go by before lamenting the past is the fault of those sitting on their hands not improving their life?

I’m not one to buy into the notion that everyone in these cities are lazy, that is silly thinking and the issue isn’t that black or white. I also don’t buy into the notion it is the governments job (ie: tax payers) to fix their problems for them. It isn’t that black and white either.

When it comes down to it, just because it is America doesn’t mean life = easy street. No, even though we are free and this nation is exceptional, we still have to work, and for most of us, work damn hard to get further ahead than our parents did. [/quote]

Just curious what you would do , not to take care of yours but to take care of the employment needs of hundreds of thousands ? There are no industries that ca match the money that steel did . And it is not a question of if it is a question when millions of jobs will be lost in the transportation industry . Again we are talking jobs that pay better than most

I don’t buy into these cities being full of lazy people either but that is how easy it is to dismiss the negative effects of the steel policies put into effect in the 80s.

I agree the better people will get jobs but my point is not everybody can be best . there are more people that are just mediocre .

IMO this will be the first generation that does not exceed their parents.

I know innovation will help, but business opportunity has dried up, especially on the small scale . It is harder for young people to open a business. Business categories are totally saturated

43

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

Just curious what you would do , not to take care of yours but to take care of the employment needs of hundreds of thousands ? [/quote]

Try and come up with a policy that pulls people along, that gives encentive to effort. Do something to give reward for the incremental steps before success (at which point the market steps in).

Sure there are.

The rest of your post deserves more effort than I can put in right now to address.

44

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Sure there are.

[/quote]

What industry has just been discovered that employes hundreds of thousands of high paying jobs ?

45

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Sure there are.

[/quote]

What industry has just been discovered that employes hundreds of thousands of high paying jobs ?

[/quote]

software programing? Video game programing? Porn?

Although I think a lot of it gets outsourced to India…

46

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Sure there are.

[/quote]

What industry has just been discovered that employes hundreds of thousands of high paying jobs ?

[/quote]

software programing? Video game programing? Porn?

Although I think a lot of it gets outsourced to India…

[/quote]

It also takes far fewer people, unfortunately. I believe that Google has about a quarter as many employees as GM.

47

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
the problem is not that we live beyond our means but that we live beyond the means of our grand children.

And by the way, this would still be a problem if “the economy” returned to a two-digit growth tommorow.

maybe not an economical problem. But a moral one. [/quote]

You must be talking about the 1%[/quote]

No.
I was actually talking about us, the 99% of producers and consumers.
You could tax “the 1%” to death, spread or even destroy their wealth, as long as we continue to produce and consume without any long-term concern, it won’t change anything.

[/quote]

Did you know that the Athenian Democracy, as far as I know never, but who knows, voted to seize the property of the “rich” in order to enrich themselves?

They had no constitution as such, no law against it, but they never did.

I think that shows that a constitution is no match for moral fiber. [/quote]

The average worker in the Athenian democracy was relatively rich. “At its economic height, in the 4th century BC, Ancient Greece was the most advanced economy in the world. According to some economic historians, it was one of the most advanced preindustrial economies. This is demonstrated by the average daily wage of the Greek worker, it was, in terms of wheat (about 12 kg), more than 3 times the average daily wage of the Romano-Egyptian worker during the Roman period (about 3.75 kg).”

http://upge.wn.com/?t=ancientgreece/index2.txt[/quote]

By that standard, the American poor have nothing to complain about.

They make more than 80% of all people worldwide, historically speaking they live better than most kings ever did.

But that is not how people are wired, the will not accept a system that has lifted billions out of poverty if the differences in wealth are to great, because they do not think in absolute but in relative terms.

There is a word for that attitude, I believe it is called envy.[/quote]
Why complain when you have to pay for the mistakes of the finance sector?

The top .01% have made so much of the gains yet want there taxes cut and social spending deflated. There is a word for that it’s called GREED[/quote]

Sure, but the gubbamint has about 6 or 7 dozens agencies to watch over them which pretty much prevented nothing.

I would argue that they make it easier, they provide a fig leaf for when it is needed.

I would rather have them gone broke, like they would have, on a free market.
[/quote]
I agree they should have gone broke. However, this goes to show you how they actually run the show. More laws need to be in place to curb their risky behavior. Not deregulation which they push for so they can engage in this type of activity. Not to mention these finance corporations are the same assholes who will defend their belief in the “free market” when they don’t believe in anything but monopolies. Plus they want to cut the social safety net that people depend on to live all the while taking government handouts to be paid for by the tax payer. A fucking disgrace!

48

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ beans probably the last 10 times I have heard the term (CLASS WARFARE) was from you or Zeb . I contend if the is an actual war , it is waged from the Top [/quote]

For sure. You can guarantee when the right talks about class warfare they are practicing it!

49

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ beans probably the last 10 times I have heard the term (CLASS WARFARE) was from you or Zeb . I contend if the is an actual war , it is waged from the Top [/quote]

I work with “rich” people everyday.

The only people whinying about the 1%, or is it .01% or Ultra-rich are politicians and their sheep. [/quote]

Yeah right! The politicians are sucking their dicks!

50

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
The whole scheme of the top 1% making those type of gains while the bottom flat lines is non sustainable [/quote]

lol, the whole of human history says otherwise.

The whole of human history also says you and your friend Zep have the reasoning skills of a peasant from 2000BC that can’t read.

Class Warfare rhetoric baby, government keeping the masses in line since the dawn of civilization. More effective than bullets, because they willingly accept this bullshit as true, and spread it themselves. [/quote]

For you to actually believe this is sustainable just highlights your ignorance.

51

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ beans probably the last 10 times I have heard the term (CLASS WARFARE) was from you or Zeb . I contend if the is an actual war , it is waged from the Top [/quote]

For sure. You can guarantee when the right talks about class warfare they are practicing it![/quote]

Total garbage.

You couldn’t, within a lightyear, begin to fathom what I do on a daily basis for people that aren’t even sniffing the level of earnings of your presious punching bag, the “ultra-rich”.

Yes I have “rich” clients. I also have some that are far from it, and they tend to need the most help.

And the fact remains that telling people “oh boo hoo the evil rich people blah blah blah” does jack and shit to help them get along in the world let alone improve their position. They know that other people having high net worth isn’t why they are where they are. Shame more people don’t get that…

52

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ beans probably the last 10 times I have heard the term (CLASS WARFARE) was from you or Zeb . I contend if the is an actual war , it is waged from the Top [/quote]

I work with “rich” people everyday.

The only people whinying about the 1%, or is it .01% or Ultra-rich are politicians and their sheep. [/quote]

Yeah right! The politicians are sucking their dicks!
[/quote]

Assume this is true for a second:

Your solution is to give the government more power.

how on Earth does that solve anything?

53

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
The whole scheme of the top 1% making those type of gains while the bottom flat lines is non sustainable [/quote]

lol, the whole of human history says otherwise.

The whole of human history also says you and your friend Zep have the reasoning skills of a peasant from 2000BC that can’t read.

Class Warfare rhetoric baby, government keeping the masses in line since the dawn of civilization. More effective than bullets, because they willingly accept this bullshit as true, and spread it themselves. [/quote]

For you to actually believe this is sustainable just highlights your ignorance.
[/quote]

Please point out a time in human history where there weren’t “have’s” and “have nots”. DOn’t worry, I’ll wait.

54

It did not work tried to post some ancient porn to demonstrate it predates the steel industry by millennia . Software programing requires education . Maybe a few people could do it on their own .
We are not discussing possibilities we are talking real life no matter how you slice it it was a huge loss to America to lose the Steel industry . It will even be a larger loss to lose all the truck driving jobs . There is NO WAY to replace them as time goes on job opportunities will diminish as will wages. It will start at the bottom and work it’s way up .

55

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
It did not work tried to post some ancient porn to demonstrate it predates the steel industry by millennia .[/quote]

lol, it was a joke.

Just like the class warfare rhetoric, this same statement has been made time and time again since before Jesus died on the cross. We havent’ run out of work yet.

The sky is not, nor will it, fall.

56

[quote]tmay11 wrote:
We need to remember that WORK is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. The end goal is to create VALUE.
[/quote]

It has always seemed to me that most of the value created is imagnined. As a culture we have lost the ability to comprehend the difference between needs and wants. I’m not convinced we have a better quality of life than our ancestors and I’m certain we don’t interact with each other with the same level of respect that existed in previous generations.

57

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

lol, it was a joke.

[/quote]

If it worked you would have seen I understood

58

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
It did not work tried to post some ancient porn to demonstrate it predates the steel industry by millennia .[/quote]

lol, it was a joke.

Just like the class warfare rhetoric, this same statement has been made time and time again since before Jesus died on the cross. We havent’ run out of work yet.

The sky is not, nor will it, fall. [/quote]

You are the one keeping class warfare on the front burner . I do not see the sky falling I think we will become more and more like Europe . It might be the only option

59

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
You are the one keeping class warfare on the front burner .
[/quote]

No, I just apply the lable you and Zepplin refuse to use when you speak it.

60

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
the problem is not that we live beyond our means but that we live beyond the means of our grand children.

And by the way, this would still be a problem if “the economy” returned to a two-digit growth tommorow.

maybe not an economical problem. But a moral one. [/quote]

You must be talking about the 1%[/quote]

No.
I was actually talking about us, the 99% of producers and consumers.
You could tax “the 1%” to death, spread or even destroy their wealth, as long as we continue to produce and consume without any long-term concern, it won’t change anything.

[/quote]

Did you know that the Athenian Democracy, as far as I know never, but who knows, voted to seize the property of the “rich” in order to enrich themselves?

They had no constitution as such, no law against it, but they never did.

I think that shows that a constitution is no match for moral fiber. [/quote]

The average worker in the Athenian democracy was relatively rich. “At its economic height, in the 4th century BC, Ancient Greece was the most advanced economy in the world. According to some economic historians, it was one of the most advanced preindustrial economies. This is demonstrated by the average daily wage of the Greek worker, it was, in terms of wheat (about 12 kg), more than 3 times the average daily wage of the Romano-Egyptian worker during the Roman period (about 3.75 kg).”

http://upge.wn.com/?t=ancientgreece/index2.txt[/quote]

By that standard, the American poor have nothing to complain about.

They make more than 80% of all people worldwide, historically speaking they live better than most kings ever did.

But that is not how people are wired, the will not accept a system that has lifted billions out of poverty if the differences in wealth are to great, because they do not think in absolute but in relative terms.

There is a word for that attitude, I believe it is called envy.[/quote]
Why complain when you have to pay for the mistakes of the finance sector?

The top .01% have made so much of the gains yet want there taxes cut and social spending deflated. There is a word for that it’s called GREED[/quote]

Sure, but the gubbamint has about 6 or 7 dozens agencies to watch over them which pretty much prevented nothing.

I would argue that they make it easier, they provide a fig leaf for when it is needed.

I would rather have them gone broke, like they would have, on a free market.
[/quote]
I agree they should have gone broke. However, this goes to show you how they actually run the show. More laws need to be in place to curb their risky behavior. Not deregulation which they push for so they can engage in this type of activity. Not to mention these finance corporations are the same assholes who will defend their belief in the “free market” when they don’t believe in anything but monopolies. Plus they want to cut the social safety net that people depend on to live all the while taking government handouts to be paid for by the tax payer. A fucking disgrace![/quote]

nonono…

Not more regulation.

Infact, remove all of it.

Let them lose their houses, let their wives divorce them, let them live on the streets if they fuck up.

In short, let their greed be held in check the old fashioned way…by fear.