My Experience On the Anabolic Diet

Nutrition
5762

[quote]raviraj wrote:
Hagar wrote:
tufnutz wrote:
I have a couple questions about ketosis.

I’ve been on the AD for 10 days. I had an early carb-up on day 6.

I read MD’s interview wherein he stated that if you’re in ketosis on the AD, then you haven’t fully adapted to buring fat as fuel. I get into ketosis very fast and am a little concerned about why I haven’t adapted (i.e., why there are ketones in my urine).

Is it b/c my carbs are too low? It is b/c I haven’t been on the diet for very long? Am I magically going to stop using ketones after time or do I need to up my CHO intake (currently at 30g).

I read being keto is catabolic. I don’t want that.

Thanks.

I don’t know about ketosis being very catabolic. I never had that problem. Maybe over long periods of time but any calorie deficient diet is catabolic to some extent.

Are you sure your hitting ketosis on 30 g carbs a day? If so you could lower you fat and up you protein or up your carbs.

why is every 1 so worried abt being in ketosis , see if some 1 goal is to be leaner and doing ad for fat loss being in ketosis will never hurt and …its no way catabolic if ur fat intake is high and again anyhow u will be carbing up also right ?

so if ur goal is to lose fat and if u are in ketosis there is no problems atall once u get leaner up the carbs a bit and u will be out of it too . and by the way keto diets started with a reason to preserve muceles while dieting so no way its catabolic .

[/quote]

Well my goal is to gain muscle. If your planing on staying on the AD for the long term going into ketosis will prolong true fat adaptation using triglycerides as a primary energy source. There are lots of posts on this thread about this including quotes from the Dr. himself.

If you want to lose fat by using a short term diet, there is no problem going the keto route but don’t say your on the AD because your not. Like I said (and others also) I’m just reminding every one that ketosis isn’t the goal and it should be avoided on the AD.

5763

[quote]
If you want to lose fat by using a short term diet, there is no problem going the keto route but don’t say your on the AD because your not. Like I said (and others also) I’m just reminding every one that ketosis isn’t the goal and it should be avoided on the AD. [/quote]

I agree with you. Totally. My question is am I in ketosis b/c my carbs are too low or is it b/c I haven’t fully “fat adapted.” I train boxing and kickboxing and lift hard. Maybe I need to go above 30g of CHO to avoid ketosis?

To clarify the issue re ketosis as catabolic, here’s a portion of MD interview, “Power Talk, Part II - An Interview With Dr. Mauro DiPasquale” where MD himself says ketosis is catabolic.

MD: When I wrote the Anabolic Diet, I wasn’t trying to present an academic hypothesis. I wanted to write about something that would work. These days, there seems to be a lot of emphasis on ketosis, but it’s all pretty useless. Staying in a ketogenic state basically means that you haven’t adapted to the diet. If ketones are being excreted in the urine (which is how you determine ketosis) by using “keto-sticks,” then you’re not utilizing ketones for energy very efficiently. Someone who is optimally using fat for fuel should not have ketones in their urine.

NM: Whoa, let me back this up for a second. So what you’re saying is, if one were efficiently using ketones for energy and lipolysis on a carb depleted diet…it shouldn’t produce a state of ketosis?

MD: That’s correct. If you’ve adapted fully to the diet.

NM: So it’s not preferable to be in ketosis if the objective is fat loss?

MD: That’s right. This is where I differ from everybody else and why the Anabolic Diet is so effective where others are not. Ketosis is very catabolic! First of all, the Anabolic Diet keeps you at 30 grams of carbs a day, five days a week. That keeps you out of ketosis, but the body begins to adapt to using fat for fuel. On the weekend, you can eat as many carbs as you like. That’s the anabolic phase, but the body is still in a fatburning mode. Once there’s a spillover of carb calories to fat storage, after no more than 48 hours, you go back to 30 carbohydrate grams a day. Basically, this is meant to be a diet that can be followed easily. Who wants to wake up at night to eat or spend each hour of the day watching exactly how many calories you eat? What’s interesting is that I’ve found that triglyceride levels rise on the days when high carbs are ingested."

Thanks for the insight bros. Invaluable.

5764

[quote]Hagar wrote:
raviraj wrote:
Hagar wrote:
tufnutz wrote:
I have a couple questions about ketosis.

I’ve been on the AD for 10 days. I had an early carb-up on day 6.

I read MD’s interview wherein he stated that if you’re in ketosis on the AD, then you haven’t fully adapted to buring fat as fuel. I get into ketosis very fast and am a little concerned about why I haven’t adapted (i.e., why there are ketones in my urine).

Is it b/c my carbs are too low? It is b/c I haven’t been on the diet for very long? Am I magically going to stop using ketones after time or do I need to up my CHO intake (currently at 30g).

I read being keto is catabolic. I don’t want that.

Thanks.

I don’t know about ketosis being very catabolic. I never had that problem. Maybe over long periods of time but any calorie deficient diet is catabolic to some extent.

Are you sure your hitting ketosis on 30 g carbs a day? If so you could lower you fat and up you protein or up your carbs.

why is every 1 so worried abt being in ketosis , see if some 1 goal is to be leaner and doing ad for fat loss being in ketosis will never hurt and …its no way catabolic if ur fat intake is high and again anyhow u will be carbing up also right ?

so if ur goal is to lose fat and if u are in ketosis there is no problems atall once u get leaner up the carbs a bit and u will be out of it too . and by the way keto diets started with a reason to preserve muceles while dieting so no way its catabolic .

Well my goal is to gain muscle. If your planing on staying on the AD for the long term going into ketosis will prolong true fat adaptation using triglycerides as a primary energy source. There are lots of posts on this thread about this including quotes from the Dr. himself.

If you want to lose fat by using a short term diet, there is no problem going the keto route but don’t say your on the AD because your not. Like I said (and others also) I’m just reminding every one that ketosis isn’t the goal and it should be avoided on the AD. [/quote]

look every 1 knows that if the goal is to build mass then no need to evenm further lower the carbs …and in the book the dr himself says that for some people they can stay at 70gms and for some they have to go as low as 10 gms …and it all depends on what your goals are …

incase if u want to lose fat and at 30gms if there is no significant fat loss then he says to get adapted to fat u need to go a little lower .iam myself on this diet for more then 1 and half year and i had great gains …and i never went lower then 30gms …

but i have bodybuilder friends …who once fat loss stopped went zero carbs and started losing fat …so it all depends on the goals and how ur body reacts …if dr says keto is catabolic …then there are many other doctors also who say keto is extremely anti catabolic and they have there own studies to backup …

so instead of getting stuck whether we are on ad or keto …its just better to adjust according to our goals …my point was just that even for sometime u go in ketosis when ur goal is fat loss then it will not harm . and me like many …got stuck on ad when i was trying to lose fat i lost some in begnining and then it stopped

iam just syaing stay on ad for life long i myself plan and love to stay on this for my life is just that one needs to adjust according to his goals and incase while ripping to very low bodyfats u go in ketosis for some time it wont harm atall just this .

5765

[quote]tufnutz wrote:

If you want to lose fat by using a short term diet, there is no problem going the keto route but don’t say your on the AD because your not. Like I said (and others also) I’m just reminding every one that ketosis isn’t the goal and it should be avoided on the AD.

I agree with you. Totally. My question is am I in ketosis b/c my carbs are too low or is it b/c I haven’t fully “fat adapted.” I train boxing and kickboxing and lift hard. Maybe I need to go above 30g of CHO to avoid ketosis?

To clarify the issue re ketosis as catabolic, here’s a portion of MD interview, “Power Talk, Part II - An Interview With Dr. Mauro DiPasquale” where MD himself says ketosis is catabolic.

[/quote]

Good find.
How do you know your in ketosis? Do you have strips? What are you macro ratios? If you are then I’d bump up the carbs to 40g and see what happens. I’ve slammed down dextrose 40g post workout on a keto diet (not on the AD) chased it with some vanadyl sulfate and got right back into ketosis.

5766

[quote]Hagar wrote:
tufnutz wrote:

If you want to lose fat by using a short term diet, there is no problem going the keto route but don’t say your on the AD because your not. Like I said (and others also) I’m just reminding every one that ketosis isn’t the goal and it should be avoided on the AD.

I agree with you. Totally. My question is am I in ketosis b/c my carbs are too low or is it b/c I haven’t fully “fat adapted.” I train boxing and kickboxing and lift hard. Maybe I need to go above 30g of CHO to avoid ketosis?

To clarify the issue re ketosis as catabolic, here’s a portion of MD interview, “Power Talk, Part II - An Interview With Dr. Mauro DiPasquale” where MD himself says ketosis is catabolic.

Good find.
How do you know your in ketosis? Do you have strips? What are you macro ratios? If you are then I’d bump up the carbs to 40g and see what happens. I’ve slammed down dextrose 40g post workout on a keto diet (not on the AD) chased it with some vanadyl sulfate and got right back into ketosis.[/quote]

Yeah-- I got the strips. My macros are for the last few days: F=59-67% C=4% P=30-37%. Carbs have been 19-31g/day.

5767

[quote]raviraj wrote:

look every 1 knows that if the goal is to build mass then no need to evenm further lower the carbs …and in the book the dr himself says that for some people they can stay at 70gms and for some they have to go as low as 10 gms …and it all depends on what your goals are …

incase if u want to lose fat and at 30gms if there is no significant fat loss then he says to get adapted to fat u need to go a little lower .iam myself on this diet for more then 1 and half year and i had great gains …and i never went lower then 30gms …

but i have bodybuilder friends …who once fat loss stopped went zero carbs and started losing fat …so it all depends on the goals and how ur body reacts …if dr says keto is catabolic …then there are many other doctors also who say keto is extremely anti catabolic and they have there own studies to backup …

so instead of getting stuck whether we are on ad or keto …its just better to adjust according to our goals …my point was just that even for sometime u go in ketosis when ur goal is fat loss then it will not harm . and me like many …got stuck on ad when i was trying to lose fat i lost some in begnining and then it stopped

iam just syaing stay on ad for life long i myself plan and love to stay on this for my life is just that one needs to adjust according to his goals and incase while ripping to very low bodyfats u go in ketosis for some time it wont harm atall just this .[/quote]

I don’t understand the whole ketosis is catabolic thing. I did Bodyopus (a CKG ketogenic deit) for 18 weeks with hardly any loss in muscle mass but I did a crazy 48 hr carbup every week. You can burn a ton of fat on ketosis so I’m not knocking its effectiveness, but the metabolic route is different on the AD.

I bet the reason you might of gotten stuck on fat loss on the AD was that your calories were to high and, or your cardio was too low. I seen and been on that side a lot. Many people over estimate their caloric levels when trying to lose fat.

Dieting is not easy especially when you get in the lower BF%. It sucks because you get hungry. Luckily extra muscle mass lets you eat more but can complicate things when you want to hold onto gains.

5768

[quote]tufnutz wrote:
Hagar wrote:
tufnutz wrote:

If you want to lose fat by using a short term diet, there is no problem going the keto route but don’t say your on the AD because your not. Like I said (and others also) I’m just reminding every one that ketosis isn’t the goal and it should be avoided on the AD.

I agree with you. Totally. My question is am I in ketosis b/c my carbs are too low or is it b/c I haven’t fully “fat adapted.” I train boxing and kickboxing and lift hard. Maybe I need to go above 30g of CHO to avoid ketosis?

To clarify the issue re ketosis as catabolic, here’s a portion of MD interview, “Power Talk, Part II - An Interview With Dr. Mauro DiPasquale” where MD himself says ketosis is catabolic.

Good find.
How do you know your in ketosis? Do you have strips? What are you macro ratios? If you are then I’d bump up the carbs to 40g and see what happens. I’ve slammed down dextrose 40g post workout on a keto diet (not on the AD) chased it with some vanadyl sulfate and got right back into ketosis.

Yeah-- I got the strips. My macros are for the last few days: F=59-67% C=4% P=30-37%. Carbs have been 19-31g/day.

[/quote]

Wow I never hit ketosis on the AD even when I felt like I did. I used the strips too and kept my carbs at 30g. If I were in your shoes I’d bump up the carbs to 40g. Do you use MCT oils? Are part of your carbs sugar alcohols? Both of those convert to ketones easily.

5769

Whats a good amount of carbs too shoot for for me (I weigh 140) over the 36-48 hour carb up. Lookin at an article it reccomended 10 grams per kg of lean body mass the first 24 and 5 the second 24. That would put me at around 900. Thats alot lol. Is that too much?? I know its different for everyone but I just wanted some opinions. Thanks.

5770

[quote]boatnerj wrote:
Whats a good amount of carbs too shoot for for me (I weigh 140) over the 36-48 hour carb up. Lookin at an article it reccomended 10 grams per kg of lean body mass the first 24 and 5 the second 24. That would put me at around 900. Thats alot lol. Is that too much?? I know its different for everyone but I just wanted some opinions. Thanks.[/quote]

Those ratios sound good but I always use my lean body mass. A 140 pounder at 6% BF could get away with more carbs than one at 20% I don’t think 900 is a lot for 2 days. Your bulking right, so if your an ectomorph (hard gainer) than I’d eat even more than that. Have you made any gains yet on the AD?

5771

Hey everyone,

I’ve been reading the T-Nation forums for a long time now but this is my first post. Yay!

I’d read the 40 first pages of this thread before I decided to give it a try as well. I’ve been on the AD for 3.5 months now, I’ve been in the cutting phase for 2 months.

During my cutting time I’ve gone from 165 lbs to 156 lbs. I’m 5’8" and my fat % has dropped from 16% to 14%.

During the week I usually eat the same things every day. Which are the following:

-Bacon
-Whey with rapeseed oil and water (PWO)
-Beefburgers with broccoli
-Tuna with rapeseed oil
-Fat cheese
-Cottage cheese with mixed nuts

During the weekends I have a 48h carb load. I mostly eat oatmeal, fruits and lots of bread then.

This week my calories came from: C/P/F 22g/153g/116g and during the weekend I’ll have 220g/44g/78g.

The problem is that I feel I’m losing too much muscle mass compared to fat mass. My total body weight goes down regularly. When it stops going down I reduce my calories by 250. I’m at 1750 now and I should lower them to 1500 next week. 1500 seems really low and I’m afraid I’ll lose too much muscle. And even then I’ll still not be under 10%. To reach that goal I’m sure I’ll have to lower my intake even further.

So the question is what am I doing wrong? I like this diet and I’d like to get below 10% FM. But if I keep this up I’m going to lose too much muscle (and I don’t have alot of that to start with).

Hopefully someone can help me out. Thanks!

Lysandius

5772

A little ticked today:

So i’ve been steadily losing 1 Kg (2.2lbs) each week for the last 7 weeks.

This week I wind up gaining a pound despite keeping the cals/day the same.

ratios are spot on each day.

Grrrrr…

AD

5773 
    Hi guys, what's up?

Here’s a question to ponder, I was wondering recently, I dropped cals to under 3000 where they’re around 2200 give or take during the week.

     I noticed that though my carb intake is always under 30gms, when you look at my overall percentages, the CHO is sometimes over 5%, at around 7%.

    This isn't as important as the overall grams consumed,(under 30), right? Just wondering how the percentage plays into the big picture.
     
      Second one, I know we've been over and over this, but how many don't count their veggies at all, and consume large amounts of them, and if you don't, do you come close to the 30g with other indirect sources?

      If you do, you realize that you are indeed going over, as the fiber doesn't account for ALL the CHO in them eh?

        So, is it something about the cruciferous nature, the distinct difference btw veggies and starchy carbs that makes it ok? If so what is it?

Honestly, the cho is going to be over, if you do eat the hell out of them, like we’re supposed to do. I myself love eating them with the proteins and fats, but am wondering if you really go off, how will being over, even though it’s from the veggie world, effect our process with the AD?

       Who can really answer this with something besides "nah you don't have to count them dude...". 

    I want to eat them and KNOW THAT IT'S OK before I go apeshit on the amounts. 
        Peace out bruthazz..
          ToneBone
5774

Hi guys…just wondering if someone could give me some advice with this??

Thanks,
Steph

Hello everyone - I have read several pages of this thread and love, love, love it…

I started the AD 19 days ago and will be starting my second carb up tonight. I just realized that I messed up and I am wondering if I can get some advice?

I have been pretty diligent about keeping my carbs at 30g (or so I thought I was). I just realized that the Emergen-C that I put in my water has 5g of carbs.

I don’t know why I thought it had 0 carbs but because of this I estimate I have been over by about 15g/day this past week. Do you think that I should start over and do the 12 day phase again or should I just carb up this weekend and carry on as usual?

Any advice you all can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

5775

No MCT and no sugar alcohols. I think I’m just going to bump up to 40g to stay out of ketosis.

And to the poster above re losing too much mass on the cutting phase, have you tried supplementing with BCAA? That will definitely help sustain your mass…

5776

[quote]Lysandius wrote:
Hey everyone,

I’ve been reading the T-Nation forums for a long time now but this is my first post. Yay!

I’d read the 40 first pages of this thread before I decided to give it a try as well. I’ve been on the AD for 3.5 months now, I’ve been in the cutting phase for 2 months.

During my cutting time I’ve gone from 165 lbs to 156 lbs. I’m 5’8" and my fat % has dropped from 16% to 14%.

During the week I usually eat the same things every day. Which are the following:

-Bacon
-Whey with rapeseed oil and water (PWO)
-Beefburgers with broccoli
-Tuna with rapeseed oil
-Fat cheese
-Cottage cheese with mixed nuts

During the weekends I have a 48h carb load. I mostly eat oatmeal, fruits and lots of bread then.

This week my calories came from: C/P/F 22g/153g/116g and during the weekend I’ll have 220g/44g/78g.

The problem is that I feel I’m losing too much muscle mass compared to fat mass. My total body weight goes down regularly. When it stops going down I reduce my calories by 250. I’m at 1750 now and I should lower them to 1500 next week. 1500 seems really low and I’m afraid I’ll lose too much muscle. And even then I’ll still not be under 10%. To reach that goal I’m sure I’ll have to lower my intake even further.

So the question is what am I doing wrong? I like this diet and I’d like to get below 10% FM. But if I keep this up I’m going to lose too much muscle (and I don’t have alot of that to start with).

Hopefully someone can help me out. Thanks!

Lysandius[/quote]

It might have to do with your cardio but your caloric levels look good for someone your weight. One thing I’d do is bump up your weekend carbs 220g during the weekend is not nearly enough. The carbup recompensates your muscles kicks up your metabolic rate and prevents some muscle lost.

What’s your cardio look like? I need to do low intensity under 65% max BPM or else there go my gains. A little HIIT is OK but I go no more than 10 or 15 min. When dieting my goal it to burn fat not exercise my heart.

5777

Hey all, this thread is internet gold.

I started the AD about 2 months ago, and have a quick question for those that have been on it for quite some time. Do you workout during the carbup, or schedule those days/day for resting up. Reason I ask is that the carb ups make me feel like I am ready to hibernate, and not quite primed to go push weight.

On a side note last week I had the great idea of just eating a couple of carb meals and back to fats and proteins, I then had the weakest week ever…lesson learned. Today I am going to shoot for 800 carbs, and see how I feel tomorrow. Doing all clean carbs today, to see if I feel/see a difference.

5778

[quote]InTheZone wrote:

    Hi guys, what's up?

Here’s a question to ponder, I was wondering recently, I dropped cals to under 3000 where they’re around 2200 give or take during the week.

     I noticed that though my carb intake is always under 30gms, when you look at my overall percentages, the CHO is sometimes over 5%, at around 7%.

    This isn't as important as the overall grams consumed,(under 30), right? Just wondering how the percentage plays into the big picture.
     
      Second one, I know we've been over and over this, but how many don't count their veggies at all, and consume large amounts of them, and if you don't, do you come close to the 30g with other indirect sources?

      If you do, you realize that you are indeed going over, as the fiber doesn't account for ALL the CHO in them eh?

        So, is it something about the cruciferous nature, the distinct difference btw veggies and starchy carbs that makes it ok? If so what is it?

Honestly, the cho is going to be over, if you do eat the hell out of them, like we’re supposed to do. I myself love eating them with the proteins and fats, but am wondering if you really go off, how will being over, even though it’s from the veggie world, effect our process with the AD?

       Who can really answer this with something besides "nah you don't have to count them dude...". 

    I want to eat them and KNOW THAT IT'S OK before I go apeshit on the amounts. 
        Peace out bruthazz..
          ToneBone[/quote]

I’d stick to the 30g of carbs at least for the first 6 months. Thats what I’m doing. I always count my carb veggies since I never read in Dr. D’s book that you can eat unlimited amounts of them.
From what I’ve read from the Doc, I don’t think carb % is as important as the 30g

5779

[quote]tufnutz wrote:
Wow I never hit ketosis on the AD even when I felt like I did. I used the strips too and kept my carbs at 30g. If I were in your shoes I’d bump up the carbs to 40g. Do you use MCT oils? Are part of your carbs sugar alcohols? Both of those convert to ketones easily.

No MCT and no sugar alcohols. I think I’m just going to bump up to 40g to stay out of ketosis.

And to the poster above re losing too much mass on the cutting phase, have you tried supplementing with BCAA? That will definitely help sustain your mass…[/quote]

40g sounds good I kinda wish I had your problem.
Good advice on the BCAA. They work wonders for keeping the muscle on. I’d take in around 30g threw the coarse of your weight training workout.

5780

[quote]Hagar wrote:
InTheZone wrote:

    Hi guys, what's up?

Here’s a question to ponder, I was wondering recently, I dropped cals to under 3000 where they’re around 2200 give or take during the week.

     I noticed that though my carb intake is always under 30gms, when you look at my overall percentages, the CHO is sometimes over 5%, at around 7%.

    This isn't as important as the overall grams consumed,(under 30), right? Just wondering how the percentage plays into the big picture.
     
      Second one, I know we've been over and over this, but how many don't count their veggies at all, and consume large amounts of them, and if you don't, do you come close to the 30g with other indirect sources?

      If you do, you realize that you are indeed going over, as the fiber doesn't account for ALL the CHO in them eh?

        So, is it something about the cruciferous nature, the distinct difference btw veggies and starchy carbs that makes it ok? If so what is it?

Honestly, the cho is going to be over, if you do eat the hell out of them, like we’re supposed to do. I myself love eating them with the proteins and fats, but am wondering if you really go off, how will being over, even though it’s from the veggie world, effect our process with the AD?

       Who can really answer this with something besides "nah you don't have to count them dude...". 

    I want to eat them and KNOW THAT IT'S OK before I go apeshit on the amounts. 
        Peace out bruthazz..
          ToneBone

I’d stick to the 30g of carbs at least for the first 6 months. Thats what I’m doing. I always count my carb veggies since I never read in Dr. D’s book that you can eat unlimited amounts of them.
From what I’ve read from the Doc, I don’t think carb % is as important as the 30g[/quote]

I incorporate the veggies in my totals but i subtract the fibre grams from the total carb count - does that make sence?

5781

I’m loving AD and i LOVE this thread - everyone here is so helpful!!

So with that said I need some more help…ahah…

what resistance programs/cardio is everyone following? I’m looking to start either Waterbury’s ABBH but want to know should i do # 1 before #2 or does it matter? OR the 10x3 for Fat loss, OR is there a better program I could be doing?

any help is appreciated!