My Dog Attacked Me

Off Topic
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[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
cyruseven75 wrote:

anyways regarding the alpha roll…it’s not something to just do a lot of, you can’t roll a dog over everything or it loses it’s intense meaning. when my shepherd was coming into his own on occasion it set him straight concerning our pack dynamic.

When my working GSD was a pup she once cornered one of the cats with the intention to have lunch. The breeder had told me I wouldn’t have cats for long, he wasn’t able to keep cats. Too much prey drive in his East German lines.

It was one of the few times I have got on her case, I growled and ran into the room. She immediately rolled over, exposing her belly.

That is an alpha roll. The submissive animal offers it.

Granted, many dog trainers do roll dogs over and pin them down and call that an alpha roll. I don’t suppose they care whether or not I, or wolf ethologists, agree with their misuse of the term - but there is a reason why I point it out - what happens when you physically roll a dog over and pin them down needs to be examined.

Imagine you pin the dog down, and it growls, and you let it go. What has the dog learned? It can buy some freedom by growling. Now imagine you pin the dog down, it growls, you keep pinning it down, and then it wriggles hard and snaps at you. What has the dog learned? It can buy some freedom by snapping at you. It’s simple negative reinforcement.

Now, if the animal gives up (submission), then you let go, he learns to give up. Fair enough, lesson learned. Cesar Millan does this quite a lot.

My issue with it is that many people lack the physical strength or agility to do this. I honestly would not attempt it on my working dog and I’m 220lb, compete in powerlifting and play rugby. If I buggered it up, she would learn stuff I don’t want her to know about. Most of my clients are women with big dogs who have already learned that aggression gets them what they want, so maybe I’m biased?

It’s no skin off my nose though. It’s been a long time since I’ve attempted anything like this, it’s just not necessary. There are so many safer ways to teach a dog to play by the rules and to earn what he wants or needs I just can’t see the need any more.

Good for me, huh? I write this like everyone should give a shit what I think, haha. Not really, just wanted to point out some stuff that maybe someone who wants a bit of guidance in how they deal with their dog might find useful.

BTW, the cats are fine and in fact they very much enjoy the dog’s company. I actually trained the cats to jump up somewhere and stay put if pup chased them, that way they weren’t triggering her prey drive. She pretty soon figured out they were part of the family. Pup is now nearly eight years old.[/quote]

I agree with what you said, ANY dog training method done with bad timing or with bad technique can be very bad for the dog. If you don’t complete the “alpha roll” as in you don’t make the dog submit, then you have only made the problem worse, but we said this when we said it was an option. So as long as we inform them thaqt if they don’t do it completely they can actually make things worse, then it’s just information and a tool.

With my two dogs, even if i’m just rolling around on the floor wrestling with them, I teach bite control by letting them bite me and telling them when it’s a little too hard, and I always pin them down a couple times not forcefully, just roll them and put my weight on them while I playfully bite them on the neck and ear and muzzle. this is a time when I can assert my dominance in a playful happy setting, they squiggle and try to escape but can’t but it’s all in fun, they just try to lick my face or nibble me the whole time.

V

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[quote]Vegita wrote:
RJ, if you could please be more descriptive about your correction attempts, it’s hard for anyone to assess what your doing unless you give complete blow by blows. like when he growled when you rubbed his belly, you mentioned kicking him down, I read that as a sweep, others read it like you kicked him in the ribs or something. Did you pin him? For how long? Did you herd him to a timeout area when you let him up? etc…[/quote]

Ok. Last night and all day he was fine. I petted him a few times, but it was very short in duration, I played a lot of fetch with him and took him for a walk. No problems.

The previous night, when he started jumping/snapping at me. I used my leg to bring him to the ground like you said in a sweep fashion. Told him ‘No’ and held him there for a minute or two while my girlfriend grabbed the muzzle. I then put the muzzle on him and walked him into his crate. He likes his crate and it gives him a place to mellow out.

I have stopped giving the dog aggressive/physical corrections because those seem to escalate the situation further where what I did above stopped it in less than 5 seconds and had him mellowed out.

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point taken guys, i was in my early twenties and my shepherd was 2yrs at the time, now eleven an 1/2 !!!

he was roughly 110lb when i rolled him, it worked at the time, i did shutzhund for years w/ this dog, i flipped him quick w/ surprise element he submitted.

correcting a dog and ruining a dog/breaking a dog are two distinct things. anyways i’m just not sure i could live w/ a dog that i don’t trust.

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I like him already!

Has the frequency of pissing up the curtains reduced since implementing the time-outs? If you say “no” right as he’s doing it then he should make the connection pretty quickly but once your curtains smell like piss it’s a big red sign that says “piss here”.

I know you wash your curtains, but dogs can still smell it and the only effective solution to remove the smell is an enzyme cleaner that is made for the job. Use exactly according to the directions, it’s a biologically active enzyme that needs the right conditions to work.

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[quote]Vegita wrote:
We were sugessting the alpha roll for instances like your sleeping on the couch and wake up to your dog is biting you. Obviously if you tell the dog to sit and he doesn’t sit on the first command you don’t alpha roll him. And obviously this is a behavioral or dominance problem, not an abdominal problem. If he came on here and his first problem was, Hey I was rubbing my dogs belly and he growled at me and snapped at me, then yes, I would also suggest he go see a vet first to make sure there is nothing wrong. That wasn’t his first post.
V[/quote]

Sure, I get your point and I wasn’t having a go at anyone - just trying to get people to think before they act. At least get enough information first.

I’m not making any assertion that this problem is caused by abdominal pain, I’m just saying we don’t know and that there isn’t enough information for anyone to suggest anything other than getting the dog checked out, in person, by a professional. Abdominal pain was just one possibility, based on some of the information presented.

I do work with aggressive dogs and this is not an unusual story to me. I routinely suggest a vet check first, and not just because it covers me should a medical problem be found later. While you don’t always find a medical problem, the times you do find one and it’s not obvious might surprise you.

The times you find a medical problem and the owner says “but, but, but - I wasn’t touching his belly, I was asleep when he attacked me” (or something like that) might surprise you. Behaviour can and does work that way. While that would be a behavioural problem, it ain’t going away any time soon if the dog still has a medical problem.

Other times it’s just like trying to figure out why the computer won’t work, first you check that it’s plugged in. If you spend four hours pulling it apart then figure out it was never plugged in you feel like a bit of a dick.

If OP doesn’t find a medical problem, I won’t be surprised - but at least we will have the facts as best as we are able to determine them.

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[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
sluicy wrote:
I disagree. There are isolated incidences where a dog will growl due to pain or some non-territorial reason, but they’re the exception. It is almost never permissible for a dog to growl at a human who has been established as a pack member above him in the hierarchy. Dogs are very adept communicators, and a growl is a serious communication.

Please don’t jump to conclusions. I didn’t say something shouldn’t be done about it.[/quote]

OK, but you didn’t offer an alternative solution, so I thought you were giving advice just to be passive in the situation. [quote]

There is always a reason and it should be investigated and dealt with in an intelligent manner. Immediately jumping down the dog’s throat to correct it is not investigating the problem or dealing with it in an intelligent manner.[/quote]

Yeah, I totally agree. [quote]

The most common reason I see for dogs growling at a person is resource guarding. (You could call this a dominance issue if that is how you explain things, no argument from me.)

Do we correct a dog for resource guarding? Some people do, it can be quite successful. But then we take the risk, the dog has learned not to growl when it feels like a resource is being threatened. It might even let you come and take the resource (let’s say it is a ball, just as an example, but it could be any number of things; bed, person, food is most common)

So then your nephew comes over and he wants to throw the ball for the dog. The dog has been corrected for growling, so he does what comes naturally next and snaps at the boy. All of a sudden he is a “danger” to children and hard to trust.

In my practice I would prefer to teach the dog to surrender resources willingly, to anyone. Rather than correcting the growling, I teach the dog that something good often comes of letting someone take the resource. If the dog lets me take his ball, then we get to play with the ball. If the dog lets me take his food bowl, then I give him a better treat.
[/quote]

Well yes, when a dog growls it is obviously for a reason, which is why you said don’t correct for growling, I thought you meant not to correct for anything precipitating the growling. [quote]

No growling, no rank issues, and no ticking time bomb or hidden risks.

Does that sound like bad advice?

[/quote]

No, I just misunderstood what you said.

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Thanks sluicy, glad we can agree. I have always respected your advice in other threads about dog training.

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[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
Thanks sluicy, glad we can agree. I have always respected your advice in other threads about dog training.[/quote]

Thank you. I have enjoyed reading and learning from your advice, just was pretty confused on that one.

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[quote]MODOK wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
If a dog blatantly attacked me, there would be no question to put the dog down. I have had APBT’s all my life, and even though they are the friendliest dogs I’ve ever met, sometimes you just cannot keep them. By keep them, I mean keep them alive.

People call it lazy to cull dogs, I call it necessary.

Something someone said about taking their pit bull to a dog park, now I am not sure what you consider a pit bull. A lot of people say they have pit bulls and they do not. But, I would not suggest, and completely (with prejudice) advise you to not bring a pit bull to a dog park.

I do not care how well trained and lovely your dog is, and how it never shows aggression towards people. People aggression is not animal aggression, and I have never seen a pit bull back down from aggression from another dog. The problem with dog parks is when the Jack Russel and Labrador get in a fight, everyone thinks their playing because they are not doing damage. Yet, when the Jack Russel bites the pit bull all of a sudden it is not play.

Don’t be an idiot and think your dog is special, he’s not, he was bred to fight dogs. So, do you think bringing him around other dogs, off leash, is a good idea?

  • Brother

P.S. I’ve never actually known of a pit bull attacking a human.

Don’t be an idiot? APBTs were bred to fight other dogs. Well, what about the:

Akita
Bull Terrier
Sharpei
Tosa Inu
English Mastiff
Cane fuckin’ Corso

Every one of those breeds were CREATED TO FIGHT other dogs. So why do I get to stand outside the dog park and watch each of those breeds trot into the park and have a good time? Answer me that. Its complete discrimination on this one particular breed.

You are the short-sighted idiot if you can’t see that…not me.

Oh, and what I “call a APBT” is this pic:

You could say he’s an amstaff because of the black nose leather…whatever. I don’t give a shit which of the two he is. He’s not a poodle as you can tell.

[/quote]

MODOK that is a handsome dog. That is what I consider an APBT not what some of these guys raise nowadays with heads 2x’s to big and freaky looking. I had an Am. Staff. that looked just like your dog but brindle. I miss him a lot.

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Would you keep living with a person who might attack you in your sleep? Is keeping your bedroom door locked so he/she does not sneak up and stab you a good work-around? Stay in a relationship with an abusive partner?

I agree with those who have said they would not keep a dog that attacked or deliberately bit them. Especially if it happened more than once. Some dogs are unstable and therefore dangerous to humans.

It is irresponsible to keep a dog with a history of biting. If there were children around it would be as inexcusable as leaving a loaded gun lying around. That’s why whenever you read about a toddler in a trailer park gettin mauled by momma’s pit bull, momma usually faces criminal charges. Cause momma was irresponsible.

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ok i cant be bothered reading all these posts but as an animal keeper and trainer i can safely say that you need to show oyur dog who is the Alpha Male and who the subordinate is. anytime it makes an aggressive gesture or bites or whatever. stare it in the eyes and growl back, or pin it and hold its mouth shut. if it attacks you pin it and bite its ear or give it a firm but not hard smack on the nose or side

As for sirensongwoman you know nothing about animals so but out (going from post on first page)

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Hate to drag this on any longer than needed but there is a lot of excellent advice on here. I have a 3 year old English Bull Terrier and despite all the prior warning to getting him he’s the best dog I could have ever asked for. I’ve done the hands in the food, I’ve bit his ear when he wasn’t cooperating, I’ve held him on his back and I’d have to say that either I just got a lotta dumb luck on my side or that stuff actually works. I tried not to yell at him but I would change the tone of my voice in varying situations. All in all I’ve been blessed with my dog.

For the jackass talking about his parrots and how dogs like apbt type dogs are compensating for an alpha drive or whatever…you define asinine.

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Too bad you were incapable of comprehending the point that simply because an animal is a potentially dangerous biter and in the individual case that cannot be trained away (which indeed can be the case) that does not mean the animal must be put to death. Rather one can learn how to handle such an animal. I suppose it was too confusing for you that I used a non-dog as an example animal.

I preferred to use an animal that no one who knew what they were talking about could say “Oh but with dominance (or other technique) you could reduce the biting risk to zero,” as some would say for dogs.

You also are confused on who said what. No one combined the statements you list.

Thanks for your brilliant contribution to this thread. I can’t even imagine what it is you yourself even think you were contributing.

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parrots are great i work with them
but dogs are also brilliant animals and any dog makes a good pet, its how its raised that determines if a boxer or rotty is a mean ass killing machine. yes each individual will be different but no dog is born as a savage beast

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There are animals, including dogs, that as others have put it, simply have a screw loose or wiring wrong.

What, only humans can have mental disorders?

I’m referring not to the extreme of “mean ass killing machine” but to being an unprovoked biter, e.g. attacking a person in his sleep for no proximate cause and not because the owner isn’t recognized as alpha.

Not every dog is mentally stable.

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[quote]Super Stud wrote:
SmallToBig wrote:
Super Stud wrote:
This is why I prefer parrots.

You cannot ever beat a dog’s loyalty or the enjoyment out of owning a dog. Greatest pet someone could ever have. But with all the cross breeding going on dog’s genetics are getting more and more skewed with it their personalatites.

My grandfather had 4 Dobermans he was the one who taught all of my family how to handle dogs. To him and people he was friendly to they were quiet and obedient but god bless anyone that that tried to come on his property ! They just have to know WHO is the Alpha it’s inbuilt into them it’s been claimed that even in every group of friends there is always one Alpha.

Unfortunately thus for the Original Poster has not given his dog any indication that he should acquiesce to him.

Well I like parrots cause macaws are actually more intelligent than dogs, are non agressive and are also very loyal.

Mine can speak fluently, flies over and greets me when I get home, and i’ve taught it how to play certain tunes on a keyboard.

So I just can’t understand why people keep powerful, agressive dog breeds anyway unless it’s a police or guard dog, people don’t really have any business keeping a pet like that. Why can’t they be happy with a golden retriever?

I think people who keep pit bulls, rotties etc are just deeply insecure and need the assistance of a ‘mean looking’ dog to look and feel ‘alpha’.
[/quote]

That’s what I was referring to. If I offended you I apologize but this was the statement.

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I sincerely apologize, Jcoop. Since I had first referred to parrots and to my (clearly incomplete) knowledge was the only one to do so, I thought you were taking a gratuitous insult at me, and I did think my post was relevant, not asinine.

My mistake entirely.

Not that it is an excuse, but I have a ton of IRS stress today and even given what I mistakenly thought, my reply was over the top even had what I thought happened, happened.

Again, my apologies.

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[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:
After dinner tonight, my two year old Shepherd/Chow mix decided to come after me unprovoked while I was lying on the couch. He scratched up my face and head pretty bad but none of his attempts at biting me broke the skin.

I really love my dog but I have no idea what to do with him. He’s come at me before and growled. I dont want to put him down and I dont have the money for him to see an animal behaviorist…

Any ideas?[/quote]

Regardless of the delusions of many dogs are wild animals and belong in the wild. If he attacked you unprovoked then this one belongs in the wild with a bullet in it’s head. It is just an animal. Shoot the worthless flea bag and be done with it. And for those of you who have seen too many Lassie episodes, Disney movies and Old yeller…grow up. Dogs are not people.

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No worries, I had to go back and check to see if what I read was right. It happens.