My Dog Attacked Me

I cannot recall where but I have seen before that chows are a breed that is known for occasions (not all dogs, obviously, but a significant numer) of biting for no at-the-moment provided cause: simply out of nowhere so far as anyone can tell.

(Which doesn’t mean that there may not be a long-term thing that could have been different, and had it been different, it wouldn’t have happened. But rather did the animal do this with no outside factor at the moment triggering the change, but only some internal event.)

While another person who wasn’t there may like to say that you must have done something at that time or there must have been some other outside immediate cause – because that is generally the case with animal/human interactions – you were there and from what you describe, nothing at all happened as an at-the-moment trigger.

Chows are also one of the breeds that have been listed as most prone to severe biting. So it is not as if he can’t do the damage on some other occasion, or that chows just never will do that.

Of course yours is a mix, not a chow, but there’s still some possible relevance.

I hope it’s not the case but the “wiring” could just be wrong. That does happen.

If so that still doesn’t mean you can’t learn to handle him, though he may not ever best be considered a fully trustworthy household pet. For example, it may be wise to, when you are sleeping, have him confined where he cannot get to you, or any other sleeping persons.

I hope though that the situation is purely one requiring learning on his part, rather than mentally simply not being an animal that can safely be accorded the full trust that one ordinarily can have with household pets.

I haven’t read all this thread, but I am a professional dog trainer and I work almost exclusively with aggressive dogs these days.

The first thing that you need to understand is that this is not a dominance issue. Even with what little information I have about your dog, if you treat this like a dominance issue then the problem may escalate very quickly. If nothing else, neither of you will enjoy your life together. Dominance in dogs is greatly misunderstood, and in fact I tend to think it is better to disregard it (no dominance problem cannot be treated directly as a behavior problem).

You asked about getting an e-collar. For about the same price you can visit a qualified veterinary behaviourist and determine whether or not your dog has a neurological or other medical problem (e.g thyroid, brain chemistry, or even simply physical pain) which cannot be resolved, or get some advice on dealing with this problem.

If your dog has a neurological or medical problem, I can only imagine the hell that it would be living in if you were to use an e-collar to try to solve it. It is already bad enough that you are using a prong collar. Can you imagine being mentally unstable or in physical pain and having someone try to “correct” this by causing you physical pain?

While I won’t claim to not use aversives at all, I very rarely use aversives when dealing with aggressive dogs. There is an adage which is mostly true - aggression begets aggression. If your dog’s behaviour problem can be solved, it can be solved without using aversives. This may seem counter-intuitive, and many would disagree, but the fact is that I (and many others) deal with truly aggressive and dangerous dogs without ever so much as a leash pop. It is effective, regardless of the choices a dog trainer might make.

Corrections are not something you can just do and hope for the best. Poorly timed, poorly placed, or excessive corrections will do more harm than good.

Alpha-rolls and scruff shakes are a relic of the past. Dogs do not physically flip another dog over and pin them down with force. An alpha-roll is performed solely by the dog who is submitting, of their own accord. Scruff shakes are mostly seen where a dog is frightened and trying to frighten another dog, they do not assert any real or lasting authority. If they cause anything, it is avoidance and fear. This is not the same as submission or obedience (even if Cesar Millan seems to think so).

If you attempt either of these on a dog who is willing to bite you, you will get bitten sooner rather than later. Use common sense.

Don’t waste your money or time. See a veterinary behaviourist who can make a proper assessment, which includes a medical assessment. Don’t buy an e-collar, don’t see a dog trainer, don’t see a self-proclaimed animal behaviorist (I would send you to a veterinary behaviorist if you came to me), and forget about alpha-rolls or anything like that.

There are many, many factors. “Idiopathic rage syndrome” is very rare, and it usually diagnosed simply because a reason for the aggression could not be found (not because there is no reason). A good veterinary behaviourist is most likely to find a reason, behavioural or medical.

My guess would be that there is a medical reason for this behaviour. Whether or not you can afford to treat it (or even find it) is a separate issue, but please don’t force your dog to endure needless physical or psychological corrections for a condition that will probably not respond favourably to such treatment. Find out, get a qualified opinion, then if you have to put your dog down at least you will know the FACTS and will know that you did it for the right reasons.

And if you are forced to ask for advice on-line, might I suggest a dog training forum? This is a pretty serious matter and you will get a better percentage of qualified responses from a dog training or animal behaviour forum.

[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:
Some quick updates…

He was lying on the floor the other night lying on his back, paws in the air, mouth open. I went to pet him on his belly. He was acting fine. After about a minute of this, he quickly turned on me and I kicked him down to the ground where he stopped his attack.

The next night, I tried petting him again and after about a minute, he did the same thing[/quote]

From reading this it is quite probable that he has some abdominal pain. If it is abdominal pain, then yes, there is a problem with the severity of his response but it is not uncommon.

I’m very glad to hear that you are going to see a vet.

If you do discover a medical cause for his aggression, then after you have dealt with that, then deal with his behavioural response.

This deserves a mention - dogs do what works for them. Usually, a dog will not go straight from “nothing” to “attack” - there is a range of other warning behaviours in between.

The most common reason for the other warning behaviours to “go missing” is due to punishment - i.e they were “corrected” out. It is a HUGE mistake to correct a dog for growling.

If a dog growls at you, consider that there is a reason. Do NOT alpha-roll, scruff-shake or correct it. The dog is not trying to dominate you, he is telling you something important.

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

If a dog growls at you, consider that there is a reason. Do NOT alpha-roll, scruff-shake or correct it. The dog is not trying to dominate you, he is telling you something important.[/quote]

I disagree. There are isolated incidences where a dog will growl due to pain or some non-territorial reason, but they’re the exception. It is almost never permissible for a dog to growl at a human who has been established as a pack member above him in the hierarchy. Dogs are very adept communicators, and a growl is a serious communication.

This advice may be given from knowledge of a few exceptional instances, but as a general rule, it is bad and potentially dangerous advice.

EDIT
If the dog is ONLY being aggressive when the OP goes for his stomach, this could be a cause. But he’s mentioned other instances as well.

[quote]sluicy wrote:
This advice may be given from knowledge of a few exceptional instances, but as a general rule, it is bad and potentially dangerous advice. [/quote]

I don’t understand this sentence.
Are you saying one should do something if the dog growls?

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
sluicy wrote:
This advice may be given from knowledge of a few exceptional instances, but as a general rule, it is bad and potentially dangerous advice.

I don’t understand this sentence.
Are you saying one should do something if the dog growls?[/quote]

Yes. I meant HIS advice was bad, not mine.

[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:

I do not play tug since I read this is not a good game to play with dominant dogs.[/quote]

There was a study done in Canada, I don’t have the details to hand, but they tested this theory out. They expected to discover that dogs who DO play tug but do NOT win would be the most obedient in other exercises. The researchers were surprised to find that in fact the dogs that DO play tug and who DO win the game regularly were the most obedient.

It seems counter-intuitive, but it makes sense to me. They learned how to earn reinforcement, and this carried over into the rest of their lives.

Dogs who are trained in bitework are frequently allowed to “win” the sleeve. Savvy trainers use this as a reward, so that they can shape aspects of the bitework that they want to see more of (firm grip, clean grip, deep grip, not releasing when hit etc) The best of these dogs would certainly be considered “dominant” by normal standards, but also very highly obedient and responsive to their handlers.

Working dogs, high in drive, are almost universally taught to play tug and to release on cue.

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
Rhino Jockey wrote:

I do not play tug since I read this is not a good game to play with dominant dogs.

There was a study done in Canada, I don’t have the details to hand, but they tested this theory out. They expected to discover that dogs who DO play tug but do NOT win would be the most obedient in other exercises. The researchers were surprised to find that in fact the dogs that DO play tug and who DO win the game regularly were the most obedient.

It seems counter-intuitive, but it makes sense to me. They learned how to earn reinforcement, and this carried over into the rest of their lives.

Dogs who are trained in bitework are frequently allowed to “win” the sleeve. Savvy trainers use this as a reward, so that they can shape aspects of the bitework that they want to see more of (firm grip, clean grip, deep grip, not releasing when hit etc) The best of these dogs would certainly be considered “dominant” by normal standards, but also very highly obedient and responsive to their handlers.

Working dogs, high in drive, are almost universally taught to play tug and to release on cue.[/quote]

We’ll play some very rough games of tug-of-war with Titus. Sometimes he’ll win, sometimes we’ll win, I like to keep a balance, but still have fun and not emphasize always winning. What is important to me is that the instant I say, “Drop it,” he does.

When dogs play, boundaries are for the most part eliminated. Higher-ranking dogs will get their necks chewed out by inferiors, legs in the air, because both parties know it’s for fun.

Here’s another thing I find wonderful about dogs. Their natural default is to play. Nothing else to do? Let’s romp and wrestle!

Not meaning to interrupt, but I’m having trouble with a dog myself. I consider myself a dog person but I am not sure how to handle a situation with a dog I know. My friend lives in a communal apartment and one of his female roommates owns an Akita. This dog hates me. I have never met a dog I didn’t like. When I enter the apartment I am always friendly with him: calm voice, average speed movements, let him smell me. Every time, after about fifteen seconds of checking me out, he’ll back off slowly, start growling, and then proceed to bark at me/nip at my nuts/legs. I have never had a dog consider me a threat before.

I kinda feel bad for this dog because Its owner doesn’t really know how to handle it and the dog is definitely the boss. I have three options. I can try to establish dominance( doesn’t seem like the best option.) I can bring him treats so he associates my visits with something positive or I can always let my friend go in the house first, grapple the dog, and then proceed directly to his room( this sucks).

[quote]sluicy wrote:
I disagree. There are isolated incidences where a dog will growl due to pain or some non-territorial reason, but they’re the exception. It is almost never permissible for a dog to growl at a human who has been established as a pack member above him in the hierarchy. Dogs are very adept communicators, and a growl is a serious communication. [/quote]

Please don’t jump to conclusions. I didn’t say something shouldn’t be done about it.

There is always a reason and it should be investigated and dealt with in an intelligent manner. Immediately jumping down the dog’s throat to correct it is not investigating the problem or dealing with it in an intelligent manner.

The most common reason I see for dogs growling at a person is resource guarding. (You could call this a dominance issue if that is how you explain things, no argument from me.)

Do we correct a dog for resource guarding? Some people do, it can be quite successful. But then we take the risk, the dog has learned not to growl when it feels like a resource is being threatened. It might even let you come and take the resource (let’s say it is a ball, just as an example, but it could be any number of things; bed, person, food is most common)

So then your nephew comes over and he wants to throw the ball for the dog. The dog has been corrected for growling, so he does what comes naturally next and snaps at the boy. All of a sudden he is a “danger” to children and hard to trust.

In my practice I would prefer to teach the dog to surrender resources willingly, to anyone. Rather than correcting the growling, I teach the dog that something good often comes of letting someone take the resource. If the dog lets me take his ball, then we get to play with the ball. If the dog lets me take his food bowl, then I give him a better treat.

No growling, no rank issues, and no ticking time bomb or hidden risks.

Does that sound like bad advice?

BTW, I almost always send clients with aggressive dogs to a vet for a check first. Medical problems that contribute to the behaviour problem turn up often enough. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a behavioural component, and frequently even when the medical problem is resolved the dog has already learned some unwanted habits, but I consider it prudent. Even if it is a very small percentage of cases, at least we know and if there was a problem, it is being treated appropriately.

The other instances OP has mentioned (at least in the pages that I have read) can be explained by abdominal pain. If a dog fears that you will cause him pain and his early warnings are not heeded or have been corrected in the past, then he may attack.

You do not actually have to touch the dog for him to fear or believe that you are going to touch him, and if his pain is considerable, he may wish to defend himself.

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

The other instances OP has mentioned (at least in the pages that I have read) can be explained by abdominal pain. If a dog fears that you will cause him pain and his early warnings are not heeded or have been corrected in the past, then he may attack.

You do not actually have to touch the dog for him to fear or believe that you are going to touch him, and if his pain is considerable, he may wish to defend himself.
[/quote]

How would the OP lying on the couch, doing nothing, have the dog fearing he is about to cause him pain or believe that he is about to be touched? (Very first post.)

Or, on page 2, the OP was sleeping.

[quote]BrownTrout wrote:
I have three options. I can try to establish dominance( doesn’t seem like the best option.) I can bring him treats so he associates my visits with something positive or I can always let my friend go in the house first, grapple the dog, and then proceed directly to his room( this sucks). [/quote]

Establishing dominance doesn’t necessarily have to involve physical intimidation. Not that it would help you anyway - a stranger against an Akita, in the Akita’s territory? I would back the Akita any day of the week!

Taking treats would be an attempt at what is commonly known as Classical Conditioning, or Pavlovian Conditioning. You associate your arrival with something the dog likes, food, so he comes to enjoy your arrival. If you can follow that up with getting him to do simple tricks like sitting, or even giving you a high-five (stuff that is quick and easy to teach) then you give him some nice greeting behaviours, too.

If you want to look at this as a dominance issue, you have also subtly established some control.

The best way to do this would be to repeat the exercise over and over. You come in the door, give him a treat, leave, then do it again. Stay a little longer each time.

I am making the assumption that you are actually reasonably safe in doing this. Also, if he’s barking at you then don’t reinforce that by giving the treat. Wait outside until he settles down (may not be how I would handle it, but not a bad option).

Your last option, the one it sounds like you have been doing(?), is not ideal. Classical Conditioning has a flip-side, if your arrival is unpleasant each time (dog gets manhandled) then he learns to associate your arrival with something unpleasant each time. If this is what your friend has been doing, it’s not surprising that the dog doesn’t seem to like you.

Thanks man. I’ll give trick and treat a try.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If a dog blatantly attacked me, there would be no question to put the dog down. I have had APBT’s all my life, and even though they are the friendliest dogs I’ve ever met, sometimes you just cannot keep them. By keep them, I mean keep them alive.

People call it lazy to cull dogs, I call it necessary.

Something someone said about taking their pit bull to a dog park, now I am not sure what you consider a pit bull. A lot of people say they have pit bulls and they do not. But, I would not suggest, and completely (with prejudice) advise you to not bring a pit bull to a dog park.

I do not care how well trained and lovely your dog is, and how it never shows aggression towards people. People aggression is not animal aggression, and I have never seen a pit bull back down from aggression from another dog. The problem with dog parks is when the Jack Russel and Labrador get in a fight, everyone thinks their playing because they are not doing damage. Yet, when the Jack Russel bites the pit bull all of a sudden it is not play.

Don’t be an idiot and think your dog is special, he’s not, he was bred to fight dogs. So, do you think bringing him around other dogs, off leash, is a good idea?

  • Brother

P.S. I’ve never actually known of a pit bull attacking a human.[/quote]

Yes, that’s me who takes my American Staffordshire Terrier to off leash dog parks and have been for the last 12 years. She has been socialized since 12 weeks old, very well disciplined and loved! Off leash bylaw here states that you must have control of your dog at all times and I do and have. Not sure what your problem is here… Petra is proof that you can indeed take a powerful dog to a dog park.

Back to the OP: I’m glad I read thru the whole thread before replying to the ‘kicks’ you gave your dog.
And again, good luck with the vet! and it does sound like something medical, here’s hoping not and just some one on one with a qualified individual.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

How would the OP lying on the couch, doing nothing, have the dog fearing he is about to cause him pain or believe that he is about to be touched? (Very first post.)

Or, on page 2, the OP was sleeping.[/quote]

Fair enough questions. Let me begin by saying I am suggesting that the OP go to the vet, preferably a veterinary behaviourist to ask the right questions, do the right tests and get a qualified opinion.

We simply do not have enough information to make a proper diagnosis. Even if he lived here and he were my client, I would refer him to a veterinary behaviourist. That is the professional thing to do in this sort of case.

All we can do HERE is throw around ideas. I do consider the abdominal pain possibility to be reasonable, and I will go into that below. There are many such reasonable explanations and I would not fixate on any one possibility in particular with the information given.

(If you want to skip a long sojourn into behaviour analysis, skip to my last paragraph where I make an important point)

Here’s what I can tell you as fact. If an operant (for the sake of simplicity, any voluntary behaviour) increases, it has been reinforced. It may have started off as a response to pain, fear, anxiety or any number of things, but once it “works” for the dog in some way it is either maintained or increased and becomes a more likely response in the future.

This is as true of aggression as it is of pushing a lever in a skinner box.

Then you might attach a discriminating stimulus to it - a cue. This can be intentional or unintentional, it doesn’t matter. Moving a leg, breathing a certain way, making a hand gesture, a tone of voice - pretty much anything can become a discriminating stimulus. Dogs will pick up on very subtle cues.

We know that the dog has learned to use aggression and that it somehow “works” for this dog either to cease or avoid an aversive or to earn a positive reinforcer. My guess is the former given the dog’s known history (prong collar corrections, alpha rolls etc)

We don’t know how this aggression began in the first place or what discriminating stimuli control it and until we have more information we can only speculate by filling in the blanks; e.g aggression began due to abdominal pain, OP moving his hand is a discriminating stimulus. This is just as likely to be true as it is to be untrue.

The only reason I even offered this abdominal pain hypothesis in the first place is to get people thinking “hey, maybe it’s not such a good idea to alpha roll this dog and pin him down, maybe he is actually in pain or has a chemical imbalance or something like that”

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

It certainly doesn’t seem like an attack in any way.

BBB[/quote]

That’s right, it’s not an attack. Other factors and variability in behaviour could lead it to escalate, so I would certainly have a look at what is causing him to growl. I would also be interested to know if he growled at you in different situations to the one described?

What sort of situation would typically cause you to become physical with him?

first off, reading through the thread it’s my opinion we’ve got two types of posters, the informed and the ignorant and/or not so bright.

anyways regarding the alpha roll…it’s not something to just do a lot of, you can’t roll a dog over everything or it loses it’s intense meaning. when my shepherd was coming into his own on occasion it set him straight concerning our pack dynamic.

to the op, good luck, as mentioned i hope it’s behavior based and not neurological, i second keeping him locked up whilst sleeping.

[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:

anyways regarding the alpha roll…it’s not something to just do a lot of, you can’t roll a dog over everything or it loses it’s intense meaning. when my shepherd was coming into his own on occasion it set him straight concerning our pack dynamic.[/quote]

When my working GSD was a pup she once cornered one of the cats with the intention to have lunch. The breeder had told me I wouldn’t have cats for long, he wasn’t able to keep cats. Too much prey drive in his East German lines.

It was one of the few times I have got on her case, I growled and ran into the room. She immediately rolled over, exposing her belly.

That is an alpha roll. The submissive animal offers it.

Granted, many dog trainers do roll dogs over and pin them down and call that an alpha roll. I don’t suppose they care whether or not I, or wolf ethologists, agree with their misuse of the term - but there is a reason why I point it out - what happens when you physically roll a dog over and pin them down needs to be examined.

Imagine you pin the dog down, and it growls, and you let it go. What has the dog learned? It can buy some freedom by growling. Now imagine you pin the dog down, it growls, you keep pinning it down, and then it wriggles hard and snaps at you. What has the dog learned? It can buy some freedom by snapping at you. It’s simple negative reinforcement.

Now, if the animal gives up (submission), then you let go, he learns to give up. Fair enough, lesson learned. Cesar Millan does this quite a lot.

My issue with it is that many people lack the physical strength or agility to do this. I honestly would not attempt it on my working dog and I’m 220lb, compete in powerlifting and play rugby. If I buggered it up, she would learn stuff I don’t want her to know about. Most of my clients are women with big dogs who have already learned that aggression gets them what they want, so maybe I’m biased?

It’s no skin off my nose though. It’s been a long time since I’ve attempted anything like this, it’s just not necessary. There are so many safer ways to teach a dog to play by the rules and to earn what he wants or needs I just can’t see the need any more.

Good for me, huh? I write this like everyone should give a shit what I think, haha. Not really, just wanted to point out some stuff that maybe someone who wants a bit of guidance in how they deal with their dog might find useful.

BTW, the cats are fine and in fact they very much enjoy the dog’s company. I actually trained the cats to jump up somewhere and stay put if pup chased them, that way they weren’t triggering her prey drive. She pretty soon figured out they were part of the family. Pup is now nearly eight years old.

We were sugessting the alpha roll for instances like your sleeping on the couch and wake up to your dog is biting you. Obviously if you tell the dog to sit and he doesn’t sit on the first command you don’t alpha roll him. And obviously this is a behavioral or dominance problem, not an abdominal problem. If he came on here and his first problem was, Hey I was rubbing my dogs belly and he growled at me and snapped at me, then yes, I would also suggest he go see a vet first to make sure there is nothing wrong. That wasn’t his first post.

RJ, if you could please be more descriptive about your correction attempts, it’s hard for anyone to assess what your doing unless you give complete blow by blows. like when he growled when you rubbed his belly, you mentioned kicking him down, I read that as a sweep, others read it like you kicked him in the ribs or something. Did you pin him? For how long? Did you herd him to a timeout area when you let him up? etc…

V