[quote]Gkhan wrote:
I talked to a soldier who was a chaplan in the first gulf war. He said if he wore a cross, he had to hide it so as to not offend the Saudi Arabians [/quote]
Sure! He was a bloody soldier. How would you like it if you had Chinese troops stationed in your country. Wouldn’t pick just about any excuse to get offended.
I know a bunch of people who have been persecuted in the US for having beards or wearing veils. And yes, they had to shave off or remove their veils to blend in.
That said, I believe that to do “do as the Romans do” is courtesy. Flashing one’s own religious symbols in foreign lands is disrespectful.
Afghanistan hardly qualifies as a legitimate example. The people there are clearly a few centuries behind. For heaven’s sake, they had a kid behead a fellow Afghani. They don’t represent Islam.
You say a Turkish bible school was attacked. I say mosques have been burned in the Netherlands, Thailands, France and many other places.
As for the Indonesian bit, I’m yet to see a source besides the “usual suspects” (i.e: Murdoch, Spencer…) report it. Fishy at best. But I remain open to any reliable source you may have that refered to the incident.
Bottomline, next time you say infamous things about Islamic societies like “In many Islamic nations it is outright forbidden to practice Christianity”, keep in mind that Islam legally protects Christians and guarantees to them the freedom to profess their faith. What some group of jerks in the street do is totally different and does not represent the Islamic faith.
[quote]lixy wrote:
That said, I believe that to do “do as the Romans do” is courtesy. Flashing one’s own religious symbols in foreign lands is disrespectful.
[/quote]
How the hell does he not see this as being completely contradictory to his argument? And if a mere cross shouldn’t be displayed, what about a church that is converting muslims? But, maybe I’ll adopt your advice and ask that muslims not build mosques in my country. I don’t want their disrespectful symbols in my historically Judeo/christian land.
Yeah, your slipped up a bit there and revealed your inner nature.
ISTANBUL, April 27 (Compass Direct News) ? Police jailed four Christian street evangelists in Istanbul for ?missionary activity? this week, even as government officials openly defended the right of all religious groups to carry out evangelistic work in Turkey. Officials released U.S. citizen David Byle this evening, more than 48 hours after he was arrested along with a Korean and two Turkish Christians, his wife said. Christian sources maintained that Turkey plans to deport the Korean believer, though further details remain unknown.
The four men were detained Wednesday afternoon (April 25) while sharing their faith with passersby at a park in Istanbul?s Taksim district. The arrests occurred in the midst of tense national debate over the legitimacy of Christian missionary activity, sparked by the gruesome killing of three Christian men in southeastern Turkey last week. ?Missionaries are more dangerous than terror organizations,? Niyazi Guney, Ministry of Justice director general of laws, reportedly commented only a day after the murders."
Cairo, 26 April (AKI) - The ten Egyptian Coptic Christians, who after having converted to Islam decided to return to their original faith, will remain Muslims at least on paper for the rest of their lives. A Cairo court has ruled that the ministry of the interior is not obliged to issue them new identity documents. The question of religious belief in Egypt often presents itself as an adminsitrative rather than a spiritual issue given that every Egyptian has an ID card which states his or her religion.
It is precisely for this reason that the ten Copt converts, after having rejected Islam and returned to Christianity, with a public ceremony, asked the ministry for new ID documents. But the ministry refused, on the grounds that according to Sharia law it was impossible to renounce the Islamic faith.
The law based on the Koran in fact forbids the faithful from passing from one religious creed to another and anyone who pronounces the “Shahada” or declaration of faith will be considered a Muslim forever.
The sentence handed down late Wednesday by a Cairo court explained that “the tribunal cannot uphold the request of the citizens” who were calling on the judiciary to force the government to issue new documents as “neither this nor other tribunals are able to see into the depths of the heart of a man, where only God can arrive.”
And if one isn’t a muslim, and therefore, doesn’t ascribe to an Islamic dress? Read below.
Rome, 27 April (AKI) - One week after police started enforcing strict new Islamic dress code rules, Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Friday that his opponents were manipulating the moralization campaign so as to create discontent. "Our enemies want a limited group of people, mostly youth, to hit the streets dressed in a vulgar manner to provoke police intervention and then use against our country the bad feelings of young people who have been mistreated by security officials," said the president.
The country's top police officer announced on Thursday that some 150,000 women ave been detained in Iran over the past week for violating strict new Islamic dress code rules.
"During the first four days [since the code came into effect] we have picked up 150,000 women who were not properly veiled, but many of them were released after they signed an admission of guilt and a formal apology," General Ismail Ahmadi Moghaddam said Thursday. An unspecified number of the women taken into custody were also forced to undergo psychological counseling, Moghaddam said.
?Only 13 of these women are still being held and they will have to stand trial," he explained.
Some prominent politicians have criticised the government and the security forces for the way the matter has been handled.
Some papers in Tehran ran articles recalling how the president had promised not to meddle into the dress codes of young Iranians during the electoral campaign leading to his June 2005 presidential election.
"Young men dressed Western style and women not covered well by the veil are not a problem in a country with much more serious problems," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying at the time.
The moralization campaign was at the centre of most sermons at Friday prayers.
The leader of Tehran's prayer on Friday, ayatollah Ahmad Khatami, praised the new rules saying that "in the past week the great majority of the population has felt more secure and protected by police. Anyone criticizing police will attract the ire of the population."
The head prosecutor of Tehran, Saiid Mortazavi, the magistrate who banned dozens of papers and is suspected of a role in the murder of Canadian photographer Zahra Kazemi, during questioning said: "These women who infest our streets by dressing like vulgar models must be considered criminals as they threaten the security and decensy [sic] of our youth."
Mortazavi stressed that "offending Islam's sense of modesty is a crime to be [punished] with detention" under Iran's criminal law.
Sure! He was a bloody soldier. How would you like it if you had Chinese troops stationed in your country. Wouldn’t pick just about any excuse to get offended.
Chinese troops? Huh? Buddhist, Confucianist, Daoist or Marxist, what exactly are we talking about here? Stupid example.
The soldier was a Chaplain. And he was not allowed to display a cross. Bottom line.
And you bitch about people being offended by Muslims praying in AIRPORTS??!! (Totally unexcusable and out of line imo in light of 9-11 sensibilities)
We have freedom of religion in this country. No one would ban anyone from displaying religious articles in public. People are free to worship as they please. Even to the extent of protesting straight soldier’s funerals with “God Hates Fags” signs.
Afghanistan hardly qualifies as a legitimate example. The people there are clearly a few centuries behind. For heaven’s sake, they had a kid behead a fellow Afghani. They don’t represent Islam.
Then where did they get this concept that you could be executed for converting to Christianity? They didn’t pull it out of the air.
You say a Turkish bible school was attacked. I say mosques have been burned in the Netherlands, Thailands, France and many other places.
Know any Muslims who had their throats slit for practicing their faith in America?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
How the hell does he not see this as being completely contradictory to his argument? And if a mere cross shouldn’t be displayed, what about a church that is converting muslims? But, maybe I’ll adopt your advice and ask that muslims not build mosques in my country. I don’t want their disrespectful symbols in my historically Judeo/christian land.
Yeah, your slipped up a bit there and revealed your inner nature. [/quote]
I had in mind the heated debate of girls wearing veils in the West and all…
And yeah, I agree with you that you are the sole judge of what should or shouln’t belong in your country. I, for one, oppose building ostentatious mosques.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
ISTANBUL, April 27 (Compass Direct News) ? Police jailed four Christian street evangelists in Istanbul for ?missionary activity? this week, even as government officials openly defended the right of all religious groups to carry out evangelistic work in Turkey. [/quote]
Maybe you didn’t read the article. Here, I’ll spell it out for you;
[b]even as government officials openly defended the right of all religious groups to carry out evangelistic work in Turkey[/b]
So, how’s the work of some police officer gotta do with Turkish law? Didn’t you have the FBI arrest people in the US solely based on their faith in 2001? Don’t some US policemen persecute black people for no other reason than the color of their skin?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cairo, 26 April (AKI) - The ten Egyptian Coptic Christians, who after having converted to Islam decided to return to their original faith, will remain Muslims at least on paper for the rest of their lives. A Cairo court has ruled that the ministry of the interior is not obliged to issue them new identity documents. [/quote]
Yeah, well…that sucks. Copts are a minority in Egypt and suffer the consequences.
Let me remind you how biased the judicial system was against the Blacks a couple of decades back. Some might argue it still is…
Maybe you didn’t read the article. Here, I’ll spell it out for you;
[b]even as government officials openly defended the right of all religious groups to carry out evangelistic work in Turkey[/b]
[/quote]
Um, no, I’ll spell it out for YOU! They’re not practicing the law on the books! That’s the point of the article! By the way, I didn’t make the claim Turkey lacked any such law. It’s just the unfortunately, even in such a secular/Islamic nations christians are becoming increasingly worried. Please do refer to the other articles though.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cairo, 26 April (AKI) - The ten Egyptian Coptic Christians, who after having converted to Islam decided to return to their original faith, will remain Muslims at least on paper for the rest of their lives. A Cairo court has ruled that the ministry of the interior is not obliged to issue them new identity documents.
Yeah, well…that sucks. Copts are a minority in Egypt and suffer the consequences.
Let me remind you how biased the judicial system was against the Blacks a couple of decades back. Some might argue it still is…[/quote]
[quote]Sloth wrote:
And if one isn’t a muslim, and therefore, doesn’t ascribe to an Islamic dress? Read below.
Rome, 27 April (AKI) - One week after police started enforcing strict new Islamic dress code rules, Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Friday that his opponents were manipulating the moralization campaign so as to create discontent. “Our enemies want a limited group of people, mostly youth, to hit the streets dressed in a vulgar manner to provoke police intervention and then use against our country the bad feelings of young people who have been mistreated by security officials,” said the president. [/quote]
Well, well…What if I chose not to clothe myself in the so-called land of the free? Do you think it might have some repercussions?
Stop thinking you are some kind of standard. One can’t even smoke weed in the US without being persecuted. What if it’s part of a religious ceremony?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Show a picture of a church in Saudi Arabia, one that wasn’t burned to the ground, converted to a mosque or centuries old. Then I will believe you.
There are many Mosques in America, and very few were vandalized or burned to the ground, OR CONVERTED TO CHURCHES, for that matter.[/quote]
Just like there are many Churches in Morroco, and very few were vandalized or burned to the ground, OR CONVERTED TO MOSQUES, for that matter.
Now how about you show me a picture of a Mosque in the Vatican? Well, didn’t think so…
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
And if one isn’t a muslim, and therefore, doesn’t ascribe to an Islamic dress? Read below.
Rome, 27 April (AKI) - One week after police started enforcing strict new Islamic dress code rules, Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Friday that his opponents were manipulating the moralization campaign so as to create discontent. “Our enemies want a limited group of people, mostly youth, to hit the streets dressed in a vulgar manner to provoke police intervention and then use against our country the bad feelings of young people who have been mistreated by security officials,” said the president.
Well, well…What if I chose not to clothe myself in the so-called land of the free? Do you think it might have some repercussions?
[/quote]
We’re talking about christians who don’t want to wear the Hajib. You compare that, to running around butt naked? Yeah, you got me with that arguement…
Wonderful defense of Iran’s imposition of Islamic laws upon the non-Islamic.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Um, no, I’ll spell it out for YOU! They’re not practicing the law on the books! That’s the point of the article!
And you blame it on Islam?
Get a clue.[/quote]
Pretty much. As it’s practiced throughout much of the mideast and other regions, yes. I find it to be barbaric and oppressive. While laws on the books supposedly protect religious minorities (and only those recognized)the reality is vastly different.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Then where did they get this concept that you could be executed for converting to Christianity? They didn’t pull it out of the air. [/quote]
The same way Christian crusaders pulled out the same concept some time back.
I know a certain American group that revendicate itself of Christian fundamentalism. That group delights in persecuting Blacks, Jews and non-Christians in general.