[quote]Pantherhare wrote:
[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
Some critics have drawn parallels to Clint Eastwood’s The Unforgiven. Both films deal with similar themes: heroes and absolutes are a mirage and god help anyone naive enough to believe otherwise.
IMO, The Proposition ranks a notch higher.
Gene Hackman’s sheriff in The Unforgiven is little more than a caricature. Winstone’s captain is three dimensional. He’s not against violence and cruelty but has a thresh hold.
Although Eastwood and Morgan Freeman portray hired killers in The Unforgiven, it’s obvious the viewer is led to sympathize with them. Morality isn’t as neat and tidy in The Proposition. The main characters elicit, in turns, admiration and disgust. The lone decent person, portrayed by Emily Watson, is a symbol for what humanity can and should be. If anyone thinks this interpretation is far fetched, I encourage them to watch the movie first.
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Gonna have to take issue with your characterization of Unforgiven. Hackman’s character, Little Bill, was not a caricature. He was an ostensibly decent guy who just wanted to build his own house but was a shitty carpenter. He believed in law and order but could take it too far. And he was a real tough guy, not a made up one like English Bob. If he were a caricature, he would have been the corrupt sheriff who was irredeemably evil. But instead he was a guy trying to keep order in his town who had an unfortunate temper. Easily a protagonist in another movie (a cop who plays by his own rules – see Russell Crowe in LA Confidential) but Unforgiven instead makes him a powerful antagonist.
And yes, you’re supposed to sympathize with Clint and Freeman’s characters. Generally audience members like pulling for the protagonist. But they were far from pure. Freeman’s character fucks whores even though he’s married, Munny has killed women and children. And they’re killing men for money, men who didn’t actually kill anyone (one of whom is pretty remorseful about the way his friend acted).
Can you tell that I think Unforgiven is a great movie?
Proposition was a decent movie, the director has problems with pacing and sticking to his narrative.
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Some interesting points.
I’ll address each one.
For anyone interested in watching The Proposition, my response to Pantherhare may provide some clues. They’re not exactly spoilers but they’re close.
POTENTIAL SPOILER ALERT BELOW
Your defense of Gene Hackman’s character is one I disagree with. The fact that he was a piss-poor carpenter is the screenwriter’s attempt to flesh him out, IMO. Here was this sadistic sheriff, the king in town, showing some semblance of vulnerability with his inability to build a decent home. Yet his penchant for violence doesn’t appear to have any boundary. He’s not much more than a sociopath with a badge and poor woodworking skills. And this supposed law keeper does nothing to apprehend the cowboy who disfigured the young prostitute.
Winstone’s captain first appears just as cruel and superficial. But there is ONE scene in which he clearly displays a thresh hold beyond which enough is enough. He shows a combination of revulsion and remorse and that, to me, makes him more interesting. And his interactions with his wife (Emily Watson) clearly showed me that he genuinely wants law and order in his town. There is another scene, later in the film, in which he realizes that his Machiavellian cruelty has inflicted an enormous cost.
And I realize the audience members are supposed to sympathize with Eastwood and Freeman’s characters. I specifically stated so in my write up. And I never stated they were saints. So you may have misinterpreted what I wrote.
Yes, Eastwood and Freeman kill. Let’s not forget what one of the cowboys did to the prostitute. I do conceded that one of them was just in the wrong place at the wrong time (after all, it was his friend who committed the hideous crime). So yes, I agree that his death stains Eastwood and Freeman’s characters.
One character I didn’t bother mentioning in my write up is the young gun who tags along with Eastwood and Freeman. He’s essentially a prop, a two dimensional artifice that serves to delineate fact from fiction when discussing Western lore. He has these grand ideas of going on a man hunt. Eastwood and Freeman repeatedly show a tired annoyance with him. Just as Gene Hackman’s sheriff had the doting writer following him like some puppy, Eastwood and Freeman had this kid who harbored ridiculous ideas.
Here is the distinction and why I prefer The Proposition. The main characters in that movie (with the exception of Emily Watson’s) elicit both admiration and disgust. In The Unforgiven, it’s obvious the viewer doesn’t have to struggle with such moral tug-o-wars. Sure, there is the collateral tragedy when the cowboy who did not attack the prostitute is killed. Yet, the way the story is weaved, it’s obvious Eastwood and Freeman (even with his whoring) are likeable from the get go. And Hackman is detestable from the get go (the attempt at showing his vulnerable side with poor carpentry skills felt clumsy to me, like an add-on).
Huston, the sociopath in The Propostion, has to be admired for risking his life to save his younger brother. It’s his other actions that makes him so disgusting. Pierce, the more likeable of the two, still has the moral dilemma to deal with; and his final act damns him one way or the other. And what man in his right mind can’t help but feel some sympathy for Winstone towards the end.
Yes, Hackman’s sheriff is killed at the end. In some respects, this was presenting him with the easy way out of his miserable existence. And it’s definitely cathartic. The audience loves it when the villain with no redeeming qualities gets it in the end. This is screen writing 101. But it’s often simplistic.
Where is the similar catharsis when Pierce finally makes his decision? It’s not nearly as Hollywood, not nearly as tidy, and therefore more resonant to me. All survivors in The Proposition will bear permanent emotional scars. And this, to me, is great drama.
As for your opinion that the direction and pacing in The Proposition are subpar, I could not disagree more. It has a muscular anger The Unforgiven lacked. I’ve watched both several times now and my initial response hasn’t changed.
When the lights go on and the credits roll, it really is subjective. My 4 or 5 will get a 2 from someone else. This is EXACTLY why I stated in the very first post I’m only going to list movies that people can rent for cheap or stream for free. They’ll know within 15-20 minutes if it’s worth the time.
I can only make recommendations based on my opinions. I cannot and will not guarantee that every movie I enjoy will garner similar results across the board.
Thanks just the same for your thoughts.
And feel free to post any movies you think are worth watching.
EDIT: I just returned from the gym and gave your post further thought. I don’t want to trivialize your opinions, which I respect. So I made some edits to my earlier response.
