Mountain Dog Diet Thread

Diet and Nutrition
21

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
I’m growing weary of all these 6-8 meal a day plans. Seems to me that Meadows puts way too much emphasis on the minutia like “organic” or “grass fed” and all these specialty oils and “cleansing” foods he advocates. A guy like Meadows probably feels the minutia make a difference to him at his level, but to 90% of the people on this site, these details are likely in the noise. Heck, didn’t he have part of his intestine removed? I could see where that would drive someone to the extreme in terms of worrying about the minutia of what he eats.[/quote]

Hmm… I haven’t read ALL his writings, but I’ve never heard him say the 6-8 meal a day is necessary, only that’s what he and MOST BB’ers have done for decades. I also feel he is simply emphasizing an underrated aspect of body composition, which is making sure the body is working optimally internally is beneficial to physique-oriented athletes. He emphasizes the same thing as most coaches (lots of meat, carbs from potatoes and rice, healthy fats), just recommends shifting SOME emphasis to the regulation of internal functions in the body, which he feels yields optimal results. With the results many have gotten with this diet, I find his nutritional recommendations comparable to something like peri-workout nutrition/ nutritional timing: Not necessarily NEEDED for results, but can make a HUGE difference and really improve one’s results.

Just FYI, I’m not trying to argue or anything, I totally see where you’re coming from. I’m just explaining why I like his diet and feel his recommendations aren’t just ‘majoring in the minors’ or anything like that.

22

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
Heck, didn’t he have part of his intestine removed?[/quote]

Yes, he had major surgery, and he covers it on his website.

23

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
I’m growing weary of all these 6-8 meal a day plans. Seems to me that Meadows puts way too much emphasis on the minutia like “organic” or “grass fed” and all these specialty oils and “cleansing” foods he advocates. A guy like Meadows probably feels the minutia make a difference to him at his level, but to 90% of the people on this site, these details are likely in the noise. Heck, didn’t he have part of his intestine removed? I could see where that would drive someone to the extreme in terms of worrying about the minutia of what he eats.[/quote]

for your general health its vitally important to eat foods that are not genetically modified, pumped full of hormones, pesticides, and antibiotics, or raised on unnatural feed.
[/quote]

Exactly, and that’s pretty much all I see Meadows advocating (which is great, but isn’t anything groundbreaking).

24

Agree with the above. Not only does this emphasis on certain micronutrients, etc have positive impacts on your physique (although most are minor, most likely), they will keep you healthy and FEELING better the deeper you get into the bodybuilding lifestyle.

I’m not a seasoned vet by any means, but ever since using the principles he advocates, and striving to make better food choices, using GDAs and certain digestive enzymes and other supplements, my body has never felt better.

I think there’s a lot to say about having great shits, regularly. (TMI)

haterz gonna hate.

25

[quote]plateau wrote:

[quote]wannabebig25 wrote:
what foods does he recommend for adrenal health? ive read some of his stuff but i guess i missed it. [/quote]

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]wannabebig25 wrote:
what foods does he recommend for adrenal health? ive read some of his stuff but i guess i missed it. [/quote]

he’s also made a livespill thing of it.[/quote]

read em both, thanks guys. pretty sure i have adrenal fatigue after reading that article and a few more on here. great.

26

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
I’m growing weary of all these 6-8 meal a day plans. Seems to me that Meadows puts way too much emphasis on the minutia like “organic” or “grass fed” and all these specialty oils and “cleansing” foods he advocates. A guy like Meadows probably feels the minutia make a difference to him at his level, but to 90% of the people on this site, these details are likely in the noise. Heck, didn’t he have part of his intestine removed? I could see where that would drive someone to the extreme in terms of worrying about the minutia of what he eats.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you in calling these things “minutia”. For getting big and lean, it doesn’t make any difference, but for your general health its vitally important to eat foods that are not genetically modified, pumped full of hormones, pesticides, and antibiotics, or raised on unnatural feed. Paying attention to this stuff could prevent some chronic diseases when a person reaches middle age.

But I admit most young, poor bodybuilders don’t think 10 minutes down the road much less 25 years. It is on my mind more than most I suppose because I work exclusively with chronic diseases nowadays, and nearly every person that comes through our door I shake my head because their condition is so preventable yet they don’t have a clue what is causing it. Our health care system is so backwards.
[/quote]

Let’s take a set of identical twins, Clean Cliff and Average Joe. They’re both raised identically until they leave the house at 18. They live together, commute together, train together and even work at the same company together. They bulk and cut together. They even marry twins Clara and Jenny who are completely identical. They live in houses right next door to each other and raise kids together. Both families live completely identical lives, taking vacations together, etc…

The only difference in this insane thought experiment is that Clean Cliff has been eating grass-fed organic meat and organic fruits / vegetables / grains since he turned 18 and Joe has not. However, they’ve been eating the exact same meals organic steak and potato vs regular steak and potato. They both take fish oil, eat their vegetables and take a multi. Joe has been taking his extra cash (from not buying expensive organic products) and putting it into a Roth with a decent rate of return.

You’re claiming that Joe is at a much higher risk than Cliff for getting a chronic disease and that it is completely preventable if he had just followed his brothers eating habits. If Joe lives to 80, when do you expect clean cliff to pass?

I’d hypothesize that Clif, by constantly worrying about eating so clean and having to pay more for food every week will in fact suffer from chronic stress and adrenal fatigue leading to an early grave or just perpetual love handles.

27

[quote]bugeishaAD wrote:
I think there’s a lot to say about having great shits, regularly. (TMI)
[/quote]

There’s no better way to know that EVERYTHING is good, both in terms of what your putting in but also in terms of how your body’s utilizing it.

It is a cumulative (ha) representation of health.

28

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
I’m growing weary of all these 6-8 meal a day plans. Seems to me that Meadows puts way too much emphasis on the minutia like “organic” or “grass fed” and all these specialty oils and “cleansing” foods he advocates. A guy like Meadows probably feels the minutia make a difference to him at his level, but to 90% of the people on this site, these details are likely in the noise. Heck, didn’t he have part of his intestine removed? I could see where that would drive someone to the extreme in terms of worrying about the minutia of what he eats.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you in calling these things “minutia”. For getting big and lean, it doesn’t make any difference, but for your general health its vitally important to eat foods that are not genetically modified, pumped full of hormones, pesticides, and antibiotics, or raised on unnatural feed. Paying attention to this stuff could prevent some chronic diseases when a person reaches middle age.

But I admit most young, poor bodybuilders don’t think 10 minutes down the road much less 25 years. It is on my mind more than most I suppose because I work exclusively with chronic diseases nowadays, and nearly every person that comes through our door I shake my head because their condition is so preventable yet they don’t have a clue what is causing it. Our health care system is so backwards.
[/quote]

Let’s take a set of identical twins, Clean Cliff and Average Joe. They’re both raised identically until they leave the house at 18. They live together, commute together, train together and even work at the same company together. They bulk and cut together. They even marry twins Clara and Jenny who are completely identical. They live in houses right next door to each other and raise kids together. Both families live completely identical lives, taking vacations together, etc…

The only difference in this insane thought experiment is that Clean Cliff has been eating grass-fed organic meat and organic fruits / vegetables / grains since he turned 18 and Joe has not. However, they’ve been eating the exact same meals organic steak and potato vs regular steak and potato. They both take fish oil, eat their vegetables and take a multi. Joe has been taking his extra cash (from not buying expensive organic products) and putting it into a Roth with a decent rate of return.

You’re claiming that Joe is at a much higher risk than Cliff for getting a chronic disease and that it is completely preventable if he had just followed his brothers eating habits. If Joe lives to 80, when do you expect clean cliff to pass?

I’d hypothesize that Clif, by constantly worrying about eating so clean and having to pay more for food every week will in fact suffer from chronic stress and adrenal fatigue leading to an early grave or just perpetual love handles. [/quote]

You are a very intelligent guy, and I think that if you began reading some of the scientific literature on nutritional biochemistry that I could recommend to you that you would see that the content of your food changes radically from the standpoint of where you source it. The fatty acids, for example, a very different in wild game versus game raised on a preserve and heirloom vegetables raised with natural fertilizer and rotation have a far superior micronutrient content than GMO vegetables. Grass-fed raw dairy products are COMPLETELY different biochemically than feedlot, pasteurized, homogenized dairy. Natural fatty acids are destroyed or made rancid, proteins are cross-linked, denatured, and in many cases recognized by the body as foreign. Since we were either created or evolved to exist and thrive on organisms in their wild or natural state, it stands to reason that the body will thrive to a greater extent by eating this way in modern times.

It is a very bold assumption, given the wild proliferation of western chronic diseases, that the hallmarks of western nutrition ( large, commercial industrial food ) is blameless in the etiology of these diseases. Especially since we truly know so little about their causes, and their proliferation began right about the time of the proliferation of mass-produced milk, meat, and produce.[/quote]

Any chance i could get those recommended readings from you? I am always looking to read more and that sounds like some very interesting reading. I loved biochem in college it was by far my favorite class

Edit: i should add that i have access to most journals and pub med through my university and would be more than happy to purchase books that you recomend.

29

I’ve never been on the “Mountain Dog Diet” per se. But reading John Meadows’ articles is what originally turned me on to the work of Weston A. Price. Made a huge difference in my health.

30

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
I’m growing weary of all these 6-8 meal a day plans. Seems to me that Meadows puts way too much emphasis on the minutia like “organic” or “grass fed” and all these specialty oils and “cleansing” foods he advocates. A guy like Meadows probably feels the minutia make a difference to him at his level, but to 90% of the people on this site, these details are likely in the noise. Heck, didn’t he have part of his intestine removed? I could see where that would drive someone to the extreme in terms of worrying about the minutia of what he eats.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you in calling these things “minutia”. For getting big and lean, it doesn’t make any difference, but for your general health its vitally important to eat foods that are not genetically modified, pumped full of hormones, pesticides, and antibiotics, or raised on unnatural feed. Paying attention to this stuff could prevent some chronic diseases when a person reaches middle age.

But I admit most young, poor bodybuilders don’t think 10 minutes down the road much less 25 years. It is on my mind more than most I suppose because I work exclusively with chronic diseases nowadays, and nearly every person that comes through our door I shake my head because their condition is so preventable yet they don’t have a clue what is causing it. Our health care system is so backwards.
[/quote]

Let’s take a set of identical twins, Clean Cliff and Average Joe. They’re both raised identically until they leave the house at 18. They live together, commute together, train together and even work at the same company together. They bulk and cut together. They even marry twins Clara and Jenny who are completely identical. They live in houses right next door to each other and raise kids together. Both families live completely identical lives, taking vacations together, etc…

The only difference in this insane thought experiment is that Clean Cliff has been eating grass-fed organic meat and organic fruits / vegetables / grains since he turned 18 and Joe has not. However, they’ve been eating the exact same meals organic steak and potato vs regular steak and potato. They both take fish oil, eat their vegetables and take a multi. Joe has been taking his extra cash (from not buying expensive organic products) and putting it into a Roth with a decent rate of return.

You’re claiming that Joe is at a much higher risk than Cliff for getting a chronic disease and that it is completely preventable if he had just followed his brothers eating habits. If Joe lives to 80, when do you expect clean cliff to pass?

I’d hypothesize that Clif, by constantly worrying about eating so clean and having to pay more for food every week will in fact suffer from chronic stress and adrenal fatigue leading to an early grave or just perpetual love handles. [/quote]

You are a very intelligent guy, and I think that if you began reading some of the scientific literature on nutritional biochemistry that I could recommend to you that you would see that the content of your food changes radically from the standpoint of where you source it. The fatty acids, for example, a very different in wild game versus game raised on a preserve and heirloom vegetables raised with natural fertilizer and rotation have a far superior micronutrient content than GMO vegetables. Grass-fed raw dairy products are COMPLETELY different biochemically than feedlot, pasteurized, homogenized dairy. Natural fatty acids are destroyed or made rancid, proteins are cross-linked, denatured, and in many cases recognized by the body as foreign. Since we were either created or evolved to exist and thrive on organisms in their wild or natural state, it stands to reason that the body will thrive to a greater extent by eating this way in modern times.

It is a very bold assumption, given the wild proliferation of western chronic diseases, that the hallmarks of western nutrition ( large, commercial industrial food ) is blameless in the etiology of these diseases. Especially since we truly know so little about their causes, and their proliferation began right about the time of the proliferation of mass-produced milk, meat, and produce.[/quote]

Any chance i could get those recommended readings from you? I am always looking to read more and that sounds like some very interesting reading. I loved biochem in college it was by far my favorite class[/quote]

Agreed - if you had anything on hand, MODOK, it’d be much appreciated

31

[quote]MODOK wrote:
MDD is basically Weston Price for Bodybuilders. Its based on very, very important ideas about food sourcing and everyone would benefit from reading a little about WAP and his ideas.[/quote]

Not surprisingly he is the chapter leader for WAP in his area.

32

Marketing, my friend, marketing. If you brand something you can sell it, if you don’t you can’t. Thats why we have 697 “diet” books telling you the same thing. Low carb has several hundred, “paleo” has a dozen, high carb had several hundred in the 80’s, nutrient timers have a few for athletes, fasters have theirs. Don’t pay much attention to the marketing, just stay on the science like you always do and you can’t go wrong.

this has CROSSFIT written all over it. My apologies for the quick threadjack MODOK. no harm intended.

I love when those who have been there and lived through it to tell DO tell.
I and I am sure others will benefit from Advise such as Johns. Thanks for carrying the torch !

33

[quote]MODOK wrote:
You are a very intelligent guy, and I think that if you began reading some of the scientific literature on nutritional biochemistry that I could recommend to you that you would see that the content of your food changes radically from the standpoint of where you source it. The fatty acids, for example, a very different in wild game versus game raised on a preserve and heirloom vegetables raised with natural fertilizer and rotation have a far superior micronutrient content than GMO vegetables. Grass-fed raw dairy products are COMPLETELY different biochemically than feedlot, pasteurized, homogenized dairy. Natural fatty acids are destroyed or made rancid, proteins are cross-linked, denatured, and in many cases recognized by the body as foreign. Since we were either created or evolved to exist and thrive on organisms in their wild or natural state, it stands to reason that the body will thrive to a greater extent by eating this way in modern times.

It is a very bold assumption, given the wild proliferation of western chronic diseases, that the hallmarks of western nutrition ( large, commercial industrial food ) is blameless in the etiology of these diseases. Especially since we truly know so little about their causes, and their proliferation began right about the time of the proliferation of mass-produced milk, meat, and produce.[/quote]

Modok, I’m not saying these things won’t make any difference. I’m sure for some they will and people should try them. What I am saying is that there’s a point of diminishing returns in all this.

Seems like most people can obtain a good foundation for healthy living by staying lean, eliminating a lot of processed foods/sugars, supplementing with fish oil and a performing regular weight training. Add to that things like not microwaving in plastic and then individualize by cutting out foods that you may have a real sensitivity to (like milk or grains). Beyond that, each subsequent change will have less and less of an impact on ones health and longevity. Think back to the pareto principle where 80% of your results come from 20 % of the causes / effort.

At some point, everyone also has to balance convenience and cost with all this. Cost to feed your family/self vs income and time available etc…

34

I think we should mention that their would be worldwide famine if the world suddenly decided to eat like this.

We as humans are ADAPTIVE organisms. This does not mean we should all eat like shit but I feel if one has the basis covered. I.E. D3, Fish Oil, Probiotics/Digestive Enzymes and eats a diet consisting of non organic meats (sigh), non organic fruit and veggies, healthy fats (vco, evoo, pasture butter, pasture eggs) which are cheap and pretty practical they would be perfectly healthy. This is assuming they avoid obvious stuff like commercial dairy, grains, vegetables oils, and junk food. MODOK, I love wild game and organic fruits as much as the next guy but can we really blame the fucked up health of your patients on non organic meat and fruits/veggies? or is it the years upon years of following a fucked diet and abusing junk food/partaking in no straining physical activity on a daily basis that did them in. Lets get real man.

35

[quote]MODOK wrote:
They exist to maximize profits and pump out the largest VOLUME of food they can to do so and “feed the world”. If it turns out that the public discovers indisputably their production methods have caused a specific disease in the future, they will say “Oh well, I guess we won’t do that again.” But, people will still be sick and dead because of it. Same thing with big pharma- “Vioxx causes strokes? 10 million people are on it? Oh well, our bad. Don’t take it anymore. And we’ll stop making it. I know your dad died from that stroke and he won’t be coming back…but we’ve still got our 30 billion dollars from it.” They aren’t in the game to promote health, they are in it for the money. Same with big- agra.[/quote]

This is an important point.

When a strain of wheat is developed to maximize yield (see “Wheat Belly”), those that developed it can be praised for ‘feeding the world’ because just about any GMO food is better than starving to death.

However, in a first world context, those foods have adverse long term affects on health. We are seeing that more than ever.

I’m fortunate (and thankful) that I live in a rural/semi-rural area with a large focus on “local” and “organic”. I can get free/affordable raw milk, grub-fed local chicken eggs, and organic/wild berries and vegetables just a couple miles from my house. I can fish wild salmon and cold water fish all year round.

36

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
I’m growing weary of all these 6-8 meal a day plans. Seems to me that Meadows puts way too much emphasis on the minutia like “organic” or “grass fed” and all these specialty oils and “cleansing” foods he advocates. A guy like Meadows probably feels the minutia make a difference to him at his level, but to 90% of the people on this site, these details are likely in the noise. Heck, didn’t he have part of his intestine removed? I could see where that would drive someone to the extreme in terms of worrying about the minutia of what he eats.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you in calling these things “minutia”. For getting big and lean, it doesn’t make any difference, but for your general health its vitally important to eat foods that are not genetically modified, pumped full of hormones, pesticides, and antibiotics, or raised on unnatural feed. Paying attention to this stuff could prevent some chronic diseases when a person reaches middle age.

But I admit most young, poor bodybuilders don’t think 10 minutes down the road much less 25 years. It is on my mind more than most I suppose because I work exclusively with chronic diseases nowadays, and nearly every person that comes through our door I shake my head because their condition is so preventable yet they don’t have a clue what is causing it. Our health care system is so backwards.
[/quote]

re: marketing-- see “Local Eggs” thread. Local grub-fed chicken eggs vs. “Eggland’s Best Omega-3” eggs. Give me local all day long.

MODOK - I know you work in health/pharma in some way. What exactly do you do that you see and deal with patients? Do you diagnose and prescribe meds like an MD or PA does? Do you work with specific patients with specific illnesses?

37

[quote]MODOK wrote:

A few that are important foundational books for lay readers are:

Know Your Fats- Mary Enig
Nutrition and Physical Degeneration- Weston Price
Fats That heal, Fats That Kill- Udo Erasmus (Read this after Enig’s book. Its dated info but there is some decent lipid science in there).
In Defense of Food and Omnivore’s Dilemna- Pollan
Lipids As Antimicrobial Agents- Thormar
Of course, the ubiquitous Good Calories, Bad Calories- Taubes

Those are a few
[/quote]

Thanks, MODOK. I own a couple of those and have read another couple.

You said that those are good for ‘lay readers’ - do you have any other good sources (aside from the old faithful pubmed search) for people with a science/med sci background?

Best,

DanChubb

38

[quote]MODOK wrote:
A few that are important foundational books for lay readers are:

Know Your Fats- Mary Enig
Nutrition and Physical Degeneration- Weston Price
Fats That heal, Fats That Kill- Udo Erasmus (Read this after Enig’s book. Its dated info but there is some decent lipid science in there).
In Defense of Food and Omnivore’s Dilemna- Pollan
Lipids As Antimicrobial Agents- Thormar
Of course, the ubiquitous Good Calories, Bad Calories- Taubes
[/quote]
Good list, MODOK
Glad you made the point about Fats that heal, Fats that kill. Exactly how I felt. [quote]MODOK wrote:
You are absolutely incorrect about the worldwide famine. It has been shown that rotational grazing of cattle produces more calories per acre of beef than CAFO feedlots and the corn that feeds them. That is a tired old propaganda argument from Monsanto. YOu should look into the government subsidizing of farms here in the US to find out how many acres the government is paying the farmers NOT to use for planting crops.
[/quote]
Excellent Post(s) again.

39

Good Calories Bad Calories has a number of flaws (Taubes is dead set on his ideas)… I disagree with that recommendation.

40

[quote]Dan_Grr wrote:
Good Calories Bad Calories has a number of flaws (Taubes is dead set on his ideas)… I disagree with that recommendation.[/quote]
The underlying premise of the entire book is DEAD ON, in many people’s opinion.
Sure, we know proper exercise helps fat loss, so we don’t care that he thinks cardio doesn’t help Weight loss.

It’s a pretty long, thorough read, but it will do wonders to help those poor souls that suck it in that a calorie is a calorie.

We all have our right to an opinion. For me, GCBC is a must read.