I was pretty intrigued by this too so I went and googled it since I have nothing better to do right now lol. It’s 7.30am here and I’m waiting for my work day to start. This is the closest to what a quick search could find that didn’t have stupid click bait headlines:
I can’t be bothered to go find the “50% will never get married” one.
Hopefully @pat will post it when he has the time.
Another thing, “not married” != “not in a stable relationship”
It’s becoming increasingly common for couples to not get married
I think the main thing people are worried about is birth rates declining. Even China abolished the One Child Policy just a couple of years back.
On the flipside, it can be inferred that even with heavy handed government intervention, outcomes of human behaviour generally aren’t really foreseeable in the mid to long term and I don’t put much faith in many types of forecasts over such time frames. The topic in question is one of them.
It was probably a good idea in 1979 to reduce their population. Governments in other countries in Asia did similar things but used different methods like taking away any welfare and/or tax reductions. Human innovation leading to higher standards of living, increased numbers and higher variety of jobs requiring more skilled and unskilled labour and advancements in healthcare led to too many old people living much longer than previously expected and unbalanced the ratio of them to young people.
IMO society will self-regulate when it comes to these things.
Certainly seems that way. How many of those can be described as stable relationships, though?
Sounds like some of you are around some real low quality women, and attribute it to just women being women. Maybe you should look inward and start blaming yourself for being in situations around low quality women… And what that says about you.
There are various movements in society and the economy that push things towards virtualization. We have digital nomads and automation and an increase in jobs that are further removed from physical goods and services.
The problem is, everyone still wants and uses physical goods and services. Many of those goods and services cannot be entirely automated (at least not yet). And they usually are not terribly flexible in terms of the time or the place that we would like to use them.
This post is not entirely on topic, but I think it is very related both to gender relations as well as a discussion of an aging population. The young support the old and that is unavoidable. And it is mostly not relevant if the old have “earned” or are entitled to their retirement. The goods and services that they want to enjoy during retirement are mostly tied to a certain time and place. If an increasing number of elderly want to use goods and services that are being provided by a shrinking pool of young workers, something will have to bend or break. Economic and government systems cannot change this. They just dictate how the strained resources are allocated.
One in three young men can’t even get a woman—meaning they’re incels—let alone marry.
The reverse is also true. Maybe in America today we judge a person’s value to society relative to their consumer habits, but that hasn’t always been the case.
Sure lot’s of people said lots of things. Since I wasn’t privy to those discussions, then you will either have to regale me with them if you want me to know them, or you can just act ignorant and slap a meme on everything you don’t like.
Says Yale:
Your welcome to peruse the data yourself and draw any conclusion you like, that you think is supported by the data. It’s not my job to filter the results for you, but I will be kind enough to share the link. There, go crazy. I already did.
https://data.census.gov/cedsci/
Data is data, it does not impart intention, it just shows trends. And it shows that roughly 80% of women end marriages and roughly 1 in 2 women will ever be married even once. Whether or not they want to, beats the shit out of me. I just know the more they ride the dick carousel the less of a chance they will get married.
Then don’t bother me. I wasn’t talking to you anyway.
@dt79 Right, I didn’t have to delete it. Here it is again.
I think some people, maybe some here, maybe not, have an image of traditional marriage with typical gender roles as some sort of prison in which the wife is an obedient and repressed slave at the hands of some alpha master.
Whether people are religious or not, I don’t think they’d think St. John Chrysostom’s statements on marriage are bad. I think he puts it perfectly.
Here’s one:
“The obedient wife does not wait for orders. Rather, she tries to discern her husband’s needs and feelings, and responds in love. When she sees her husband is weary, she encourages him to rest; when she sees him agitated, she soothes him; when he is ill, she nurses and comforts him; when he is happy and elated, she shares his joy. Yet such obedience should not be confined to the wife; the husband should be obedient in the same way. When she is weary, he should relieve her of her work; when she is sad, he should cherish her, holding her gently in his arms; when she is filled with good cheer, he should also share her good cheer. Thus a good marriage is not a matter of one partner obeying the other, but of both partners obeying each other.“
@pat Of possible interest.
I’m on vacation, so won’t respond at length, but I’m glad you reposted it.
In a nutshell, I believe you’ve outlined a good marriage, not marriage in general. I think my marriage is as you describe, though I would substitute “considerate” or “loving” for “obedient.” Still, same message.
I think you may include me in the people you imagine think traditional marriage is a prison. I don’t. I think a bad marriage is a prison. Disempowered women have a greater likelihood of finding their bad marriages a prison.
@pat, my understanding of that data is that women are increasingly choosing not to get married and not to stay unhappily married.
Fortunately for me, it doesn’t irritate me like it used to. I might start walking around humming it, but I do it with joy.
If you actually read what I wrote, you’d probably not disagree with as much as you think. I know how it goes, a lot of people just gloss over a post. But potentially explosive topics, I tend to take my time a word as carefully as I can. I didn’t actually say anything controversial.
I have just been going into deep rabbit holes with regards to the fate of the family unit and trying to find out why the stats are so alarming.
the fact of the matter, is that marriage is dropping precipitously and started was remarkably worse since the last census.
Why does that concern me? Because the condition of the family is the biggest predictor of the success of a culture, a country, basically everything we care about in life. And the family is dying.
I should have kept a bibliography of all that I read and looked at. The census data is extremely informative, but you have to spend a lot of time with the filters.
The other fact, is that over the past 50 years, men have changed very little. Contrarily, women have changed a great deal, they are more wealthy, more free, more independant and more fat than they used to be. But the rub is that these women still want traditional men in large part.
Except men are bowing out of the dating market. There is already a deficiency in men just by nature and fewer are available to date. Its a very odd phenomenon.
To things, based on the timelines I saw seem to be responsible. metoo and the rise of instagram. Which both happened at the same time. It appears to have broken men. In the last 3 years the rise in ‘Why won’t men approach me anymore’ articles have skyrocketed. The fact of the matter, men can lose everything at the mere accusation of impropriety and they will never get it back. This over penalization for merely complimenting or interacting with the opposite gender has just become a price fewer men are willing to pay.
And when you think about it, men have to bring money, provision, competence and security/ protection and be good looking and over six feet tall to even be considered being datable, muchless marriable.
What do women bring besides sex? I am asking because I don’t know.
There is a book called ‘The Rational Male’ that covers a lot of this data. It’s very data rich, this guy did his homework. It’s fascinating. I highly recommend it.
Dawg - I was referencing the meme when I said this. The meme is the idea I was deliberately not restating.
Thanks for the link. The abstract actually answers a number of the open questions within the first couple of hundred words. I’ll look it over, however, this was written in 2008 based on a study of the period between 1972-2006. I think whatever conclusions were drawn here are probably due for a refresh given that 2008-2021 is a pretty fast-paced and eventful period in the way American society works.
Thanks for the link again. A cursory search reveals the marriage / divorce statistics, but seems to impart nothing about the intentions of the people surveyed. Whether or not they want to has everything to do with it. I’ll have to spend some time with it. By the way, your savory conclusion to that paragraph undermines the assertion that this is all just an objective analysis of reality.
I don’t think you understand how a forum works.
Actually - fuck it. I changed my mind. Your bullshit isn’t worth a response.
I read the Rational Male. It’s a good book but the author has since been teaming up with so-called red-pilled dating coaches who push for a pump-and-dump, sexually-licentious approach to women, which ironically exacerbates the mess you’ve described. He and others whine and complain about women so much that one might think he shouldn’t deal with women at all!
I only think Rollo’s books are good if used for seeking marriage and family.
Another book recommendation on this mess is The Garbage Generation by Daniel Amneus.
This is just an obscure forum, no need to maintain it on vacation. Last year, I was up tp 2 hours a day just to get to all the responses. Realizing I had no real obligation and that it was taking up a huge amount of my time I just took a hiatus. So no need to reply on vaca.
And I would welcome the data to which you are referring because the data I saw shows the exact opposite. Women in their 20’s don’t want to get married, but when that wall hits at 35, then end up finding out that most of them will never get married. I have seen zero data to indicate that women enmasse have given up on marriage. Men on the other hand have, due to the litigious nature of the modern dating scene.
Like I said, I will welcome the data if you have it. Because the number of spinsters is increasing like crazy and none seem very happy about it.
Then by all means fuck it, and fuck off…
You do the same, pal
Loving or considerate does not in any way convey the same thing as “obedient”. At all. My dog should be obedient. My wife, i would never expect, and would never be, obedient. JFC.
I want a wife who challenges me and is an equal partner on our TEAM. Like a football team, we dont have to share the same roles, but we do need to fill roles that compliment each other, and we will love and be loyal to each other till the end- picking each other up when needed but also holding each other accountable. I want a probowl teammate, not a fucking watergirl for a wife who i just scream “WATER!!!” at and she comes running. She isnt support staff.
I’ve noticed most of the men saying this stuff were never in the dating market (the undesirable guys). Saying it is voluntary seems to be a way to cope with women not wanting them.
This is also true for undesirable guys. Their interactions with women don’t typically go well. Basically, if you bring something to the table women are looking for, and aren’t a creep, you probably won’t run into legal issues. It seems like the venn diagram for men who are creepy, and men who can’t figure out non verbal queues from women is a circle.
Bingo. Low quality men seem to only be able to have success with low quality women and then extrapolate that all women have similarly low quality. No one wants to look inwards and determine if there is something THEY are doing to cause the poor outcomes.