[quote]flyboy51v wrote:
You miss my point … It’s not that they’re trying … that’s great … it’s just how can you be an adult male and be not just in bad shape but weaker than half the women at the gym. [/quote]
I’m weaker than half the women at my gym, but I also just spent 2 months on my back. I weighed 310 in january (strongest I’d ever been) and now I weigh 210 with no muscle (I can see my hip bones and ribs and my elbows are bigger than my upper arms).
That’s how…got a problem?[/quote]
Sorry … forgot to make exceptions for wounded veterans, men with crippling diseases, horrible accident victims etc.
[quote]Nards wrote:
I do wonder why so many are giving the OP shit yet we have our very own Squat Rack Curls thread that is on its 8th or 9th iteration and all we do is talk about stupid shit we see in the gym, and that stupid stuff is usually all about guys that lift light, work their showy muscles and wear tight tank tops and other such things which we think means people are not being serious and deceiving themselves in the gym.[/quote]
The examples in the OP listed people who were after advice, not people who decide to do their own thing (and end up wasting their time). If the examples were of guys who dud x, y, & z, got advice and then proceeded to ignore said advice, he might have more agreement.
A lot of people here were once the scrawny weakling in the gym, we remember how it feels.[/quote]
You’ll have to trust me im not talking normal dudes starting out … been there (still there feels like) … its the whole package. I see them (the type) all the time … just happened to see them at the gym … kind of a startling contrast for me so I took note. And i dont know these guys stories … they are stand ins for the guys we all see in our lives …
I mean there is no doubt that alpha behavior is on a drastic decline. You have men that gossip and get butt hurt about stupidity that doesn’t matter. You have men that are content to sit on their butts and watch tv getting fat instead of doing anything to make themselves better.
Men who dodge work at all costs and men who have so little pride in themselves that they would rather get a little something for nothing than to actually work and try to better themselves. Men who will let the door slam on their wife and kids because they couldn’t be bothered to hold it.
A lot of you probably don’t agree, but I think chivalry is part of being alpha. I mean if you think you are a top dog, what does that say about you that you have no regard for the fairer members of the species?
“Sir Adrian Paul Ghislain Carton de Wiart VC, KBE, CB, CMG, DSO (5 May 1880 - 5 June 1963) was a British Army officer of Belgian and Irish descent. He served in the Boer War, First World War, and Second World War; was shot in the face, head, stomach, ankle, leg, hip, and ear; survived a plane crash; tunnelled out of a POW camp; and bit off his own fingers when a doctor refused to amputate them. Describing his experiences in World War I, he wrote, ‘Frankly I had enjoyed the war.’”
When you are this alpha, then it is OK to mock other guys in the gym.
Also, I really doubt Sir Adrian even lifted.
(It’s the best biography of any human I’ve ever read.)
A lot of you probably don’t agree, but I think chivalry is part of being alpha. I mean if you think you are a top dog, what does that say about you that you have no regard for the fairer members of the species?[/quote]
woahly shit funny thread. its hilarious how people think rich people must mean that a person is alpha. people keep calling up names like bill gates as alpha. rich people dont get rich because they are alpha males, they are total and utter cunts.
bill gates has been accused of donating phony vaccines that paralysed african children, and currently owns 500,000 monsanto shares - the biotech company thats fucking up our food chain with their genetically modified crops; and now even GM salmon are gonna be released. when people say alpha i think people like louie simmons, mariusz and dave tate. you just know when you see them, that they are not people you want to fuck with, and if you hang around them; you will derive some kind of benefit from them(in this case physical strength).
the op was a dick calling those men who were weak betas, they are going to the gym to make themselves stronger its not very kind of you to put people down, but i dont think it warrants putting him down either. everyones got their own opinions he should be allowed to have his. strong people, and when i say strong i mean characteristically, are universally kind and they will always bring the people around up.
they dont put people down just because they can because they derive no satisfaction from it. its always the weak people who are cruel. when weak people are put in positions of power they will invariably run themselves into a brick wall.
it would be pretty hilarious if you found out that those “betas” were actually alpha males in real life and were working out to correct a weakness in their life. imagine how shit the op would feel ROFL
A lot of you probably don’t agree, but I think chivalry is part of being alpha. I mean if you think you are a top dog, what does that say about you that you have no regard for the fairer members of the species?[/quote]
Andrea Dworkin has eaten my white steed.
My new horse looks like this. [/quote]
I had a feeling that if anyone did, you would be the one to comment on that. haha
[quote]flyboy51v wrote:
-The only reason i brought up this topic here is that you’d expect to find some kindred spirits. The sheer number of guys here on this thread instantly begging for tolerance and understanding furthers my concern that we’re already doomed … :). Are all these guys gonna have children and how will THEY raise sons?
[/quote]
Classic behavior of weak-minded people.
Can’t find anyone who agrees with him. Decides that everyone else must be wrong.[/quote]
Thing is…some do agree with him. I found some value in some of what he wrote. In fact, he pegged it in several instances.[/quote]
There is merit in his claim (in later posts where he defends himself, mind you; his OP is just a pointless rant on how weak=beta) that today’s pop culture seems to showcase “men” who seem quite “feminized”, in that they tend to be skinny/thin and boyish in looks. I mean, look at Korean pop stars. They’re all like that. It scares me sometimes, and I most certainly can agree with that sentiment.
That being said, I really do not think that the situation is as anywhere near as bad as OP claims. Pop culture simply appears the most visible because it’s meant to be visible. They’re supposed to be in your face. That’s the point of the fucking business, but that doesn’t mean that the overwhelming majority buy into that mentality.
Are people weaker than they were in the 50s? Yes. We simply don’t have to walk around as much anymore and don’t have to do manual labor nearly as much anymore, and it obviously shows. It always freaks me out on how pathetic I am when my dad casually mentions walking 4+ miles just to school daily when he was a child.
But the entire premise OP mentions in his OP, that weaker than a lady=beta, and that you’re pathetic because of it, etc, just reeks of someone who is subconsciously insecure. Maybe he’s not. Maybe he did really post just for shits and giggles.
But like I mentioned earlier, any definition of alpha for me includes supreme self-confidence. I never see self-confident people feel the need to belittle others. The OP didn’t say he’s an alpha, but I interpreted his OP and following posts as such.[/quote]
Rrjc, I agree with much of the above.
I’m not going to get into the “Look what I saw in the gym…” stuff. I’ll leave that alone because I agree with both sides of that particular argument to some degree.
But I have made the practice of observing men on airline flights, train rides, subways, light rails and such, and I sometimes ask myself who’s on this ___________(fill in the blank) that looks like they’ve got the gumption and the wherewithal to send a United Flight 93 into a Pennsylvania field instead of the White House? Who has the ability to jump the guy who’s tormenting a woman on the Seattle Light Rail? Who has the honor not to abandon his young child who is the result of a hookup with a young woman? Who can lead a company (of men or a business), big or small, out of the depths of poor sales or apathy? Who can stay the course in the face of adversity?
I’d venture to say there are a fair amount of skinny men who are up to all those tasks, don’t get me wrong. So it’s not about size or muscle. But there is a discipline that can be forged in the gym that transcends other areas of our lives.
I DO believe that the feminization of North America is in full swing (won’t comment on foreign lands because I haven’t left North America/Caribbean). I don’t believe it’s a good thing. This ethos that it’s not a good thing and the collective “we” (and “I”) can do something about it is what attracted me to T-Nation 12 years ago. I’m not so sure it’s still here in abundance but that’s for another day.
The reason it’s in full swing? There are several. One of them is life is simply too easy, especially in the physical sense. Look at the Great Recession of the past five years – it’s not even remotely in the same solar system as the Great Depression of the 1930’s. The poorest 10% of the past five years lived like royalty compared to 25% of the folks in 1933.
The declining of core values (see the other thread) has also contributed.
I could go on and on and give ya’ll some big dissertation (Orion style) but I think you get the point.
TC has written some books about manhood. For those of you who haven’t read 'em, you might want to get a start there. I would also recommend a book our dear Nordic warrior, Edgy, recommended, “The Married Man Sex Life Primer” by Athol Kay (it’s about more than sex) and…the Bible, especially about the great but oftentimes flawed “T-men” of the distant past as well as biographies of America’s founding fathers.[/quote]
[quote]harrypotter wrote:
AM I the only guy here who saw the funny in the Ops first post?
A woman PT starts getting angry at how weak this man is…LOL! Thats a troll right there, he isn’t being serious.
TROLLED![/quote]
I humbly disagree.
I think a lot of newbies come to this site thinking it’s a place where you can get manly things off your chest and other manly men will agree with you.
Sure we are a great community, but the community also doesn’t take too well to new guys coming in with stuff like the OP may have said. Also threads by guys that want to know where they can get jeans that fit, which is their way of showing they are large and fit and thus establishing themselves quickly.
If betas are not allowed in gyms: then how are gyms in Greece supposed to post announcements, schedules, etc.? Are they supposed to avoid using the second letter of their alphabet inside the gym? Kind of like that challenge where you try to write a poem or an essay without using the letter “e”?
[quote]Nards wrote:
I do wonder why so many are giving the OP shit yet we have our very own Squat Rack Curls thread that is on its 8th or 9th iteration and all we do is talk about stupid shit we see in the gym, and that stupid stuff is usually all about guys that lift light, work their showy muscles and wear tight tank tops and other such things which we think means people are not being serious and deceiving themselves in the gym.[/quote]
agree completely. in I don’t get the fetish with pointing out how people do things wrong. My friend who ask for routines never stick to it, so how am I going to affect the masses? It’s hard enough to fit in and focus on my own training.
I think the OP set us up for a good dialogue. FWIW I always feel “beta” instantly when some dude walks in the room and has ridiculous traps.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
“Sir Adrian Paul Ghislain Carton de Wiart VC, KBE, CB, CMG, DSO (5 May 1880 - 5 June 1963) was a British Army officer of Belgian and Irish descent. He served in the Boer War, First World War, and Second World War; was shot in the face, head, stomach, ankle, leg, hip, and ear; survived a plane crash; tunnelled out of a POW camp; and bit off his own fingers when a doctor refused to amputate them. Describing his experiences in World War I, he wrote, ‘Frankly I had enjoyed the war.’”
When you are this alpha, then it is OK to mock other guys in the gym.
Also, I really doubt Sir Adrian even lifted.
[/quote]
Well, at the very least I expect he had to lift his enormous brass balls into his immaculately pressed jodhpurs.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Rrjc, I agree with much of the above.
I’m not going to get into the “Look what I saw in the gym…” stuff. I’ll leave that alone because I agree with both sides of that particular argument to some degree.
But I have made the practice of observing men on airline flights, train rides, subways, light rails and such, and I sometimes ask myself who’s on this ___________(fill in the blank) that looks like they’ve got the gumption and the wherewithal to send a United Flight 93 into a Pennsylvania field instead of the White House? Who has the ability to jump the guy who’s tormenting a woman on the Seattle Light Rail? Who has the honor not to abandon his young child who is the result of a hookup with a young woman? Who can lead a company (of men or a business), big or small, out of the depths of poor sales or apathy? Who can stay the course in the face of adversity?
[/quote]
Those are all good points/questions to ask, and to be honest, I don’t know. I agree with you that there are less and less people I’d trust to do the above, but in all honesty, my point was that it sounds like the OP was one of those guys who would stand idly by, no matter how big his muscles are. “What am I supposed to do?” (or something to that effect) he asked in a previous post. Does that sound like the sort of guy you’d want on flight 93 with you? My point to the OP was that it takes more than just muscle to be alpha, which he seems to think. (He said weightlifting won’t turn them into men (which I partially disagree with), but it seems from his OP that they AREN’T men BECAUSE they don’t lift as much as he, or a girl, or whoever does.)
I’d rather have a skinny guy with all the balls on earth on a flight like that with me rather than the passive OP, but that’s kinda because the OP said he wasn’t very big/strong anyway, lol.
I agree with you 100%. In fact, I said that last sentence in so few words in a previous post of mine, but OP dismissed it by saying “lifting more wont make them men.” or something like that. Little does he know the power of a reinforcement loop - Maybe weightlifting would be the thing that knocks these “betas” out of their negative reinforcement loop and into a positive one. THAT sorta shit will make a man out of someone, if they do it right.
Again, I agree with you 100%. I doubt many would disagree that there’s a feminization of men in North America, just as I doubt many would disagree that it’s not a bad thing. I don’t think that’s the issue.
The difference between your POV and the OP’s POV seems to be what you want to do about it. He already brushed off the idea of actually giving them the resources he’s been lucky enough to have stumbled upon, let alone actually helping them at the gym. He doesn’t want do actively do anything about it.
While you don’t think it’s the same atmosphere as it was that attracted you here 12 years ago, you said it was the fact that the collective “can do something about it.” You want to actually do something about it. You’ve met up with other t-nationers, you’ve formed a bit of camaraderie through this website as well as out of it. That little bit of ‘man bonding’ or whatever you’d like to call it is doing your part to help that shit spread - OP won’t even help a local guy out from the gym.
Like I mentioned earlier, 4est practically saved that kids life.
Remember that confession/question thread that AC devoted so much time and effort to? He made a freakin’ separate forum, for fucks sake! ALL so that he could help a bunch of guys out and ACTUALLY make a change about the situation.
Zraw’s doing his thing in the BSL forum helping a bunch of guys out, making an actual change in the situation.
OP’s still just whining about it.
Again, I think you’re 100% right. I even consider myself a product of the “having it too easy” generation and thus, have my times where I might not work/have to work as hard as I should at something. I’m workin’ on it.
I do get the point, and it’s a good one. The point I was trying to portray for the OP was that being “alpha” includes TAKING FUCKING ACTION. Passively aggressively talking shit to people behind their back, anonymously on the internet, isn’t taking action, it’s being a lazy fuck and whining about a situation all while doing nothing to actually make a change.
[quote]
TC has written some books about manhood. For those of you who haven’t read 'em, you might want to get a start there. I would also recommend a book our dear Nordic warrior, Edgy, recommended, “The Married Man Sex Life Primer” by Athol Kay (it’s about more than sex) and…the Bible, especially about the great but oftentimes flawed “T-men” of the distant past as well as biographies of America’s founding fathers.[/quote]
Maybe TC could start doing the Atomic Dog column again? I think that was a big part of the ‘attitude’ you spoke of in your post (that you said you’re not so sure is still around). I have to go to artofmanliness in order to get my ‘man’ fix nowadays!
Thanks for those book recommendations, I’mma check 'em out.
Another great book is Iron John by Robert Bly. (That was one of the few that AC recommended in his confession/question thread.) I read it twice and picked stuff up both times.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that the original post made by flyboy struck me as similar to someone bragging about how much pussy he gets, going on and on and on, unprovoked, about how many girls swing off his nuts on a daily basis. …while clearly overcompensating for how little pussy he actually gets.
Just with being alpha, instead of being a pussy magnet.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
But I have made the practice of observing men on airline flights, train rides, subways, light rails and such, and I sometimes ask myself who’s on this ___________(fill in the blank) that looks like they’ve got the gumption and the wherewithal to send a United Flight 93 into a Pennsylvania field instead of the White House? Who has the ability to jump the guy who’s tormenting a woman on the Seattle Light Rail? Who has the honor not to abandon his young child who is the result of a hookup with a young woman? Who can lead a company (of men or a business), big or small, out of the depths of poor sales or apathy? Who can stay the course in the face of adversity?
I’d venture to say there are a fair amount of skinny men who are up to all those tasks, don’t get me wrong. So it’s not about size or muscle. But there is a discipline that can be forged in the gym that transcends other areas of our lives.[/quote]
Heh.
People either grow or shrink in face of adversity. In fact, adversity is the only possible place in which a person can grow as a character. Clearly the men and women on Flight 93 grew big in the face of the greatest adversity possible-their own death. If only there was a way for them to survive their ordeal- then they would have been tremendous people in their respective lives.
The gym is a wonderful place to grow character. I mean, physical adversity is one of the most obvious ones out there. But it is important to note that moving 350lb on a deadlift is different from moving 500+lb, or (more accurately) moving weight that is clearly in the upper limits of your given body.
Those that lift middling numbers for their body type? Psh. No real character growth. It’s like saying I’m great because I can get through an 8hr work day and do a good work. Everyone can, and should, be able to do it with some effort.
But those that push their body and mind beyond what is considered normal and into the realm of the abnormal? Those that work 12+hr on a daily basis and only sleep 4-5 hours a day? Those that lift numbers that seem utterly absurd for their body type? Those are the people with true discipline and guts, and they clearly grew in the face of their own respective adversities.
Too many people in the gym consider themselves awesome for lifting weights. It’s stupid.
They may have true discipline and guts in the gym, but it doesn’t necessarily pander to different parts of their lives.
I do not consider lifting weights “adversity”. Sure, it’s difficult, and the higher numbers are extremely impressive, but it’s not even close to what I call adversity.
