Moral Poverty Cost Blacks in New Orleans

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

Garrett W.,

Those numbers were taken from Harvard’s own admission records and the religious/ethnic classifications givne by the students. If you would a relatively good summary please refer to Robert K. Unz editorial in the Wall Street Journal, November 16, 1998.

Incidentally, that year 20% of graduates were Asian.

My implication was not that any one socioeconomic group was preferred over the other for any particular reason. My point was that the acheivement of the groups was different despite Affirmative Action. My point was also that there are many specific ethnic groups that have not achieved a great deal of prosperity.

What is the answer to that quandary? Perhaps if you look at the South as a region on the Reconstruction era and how it underwent a massively destructive colonial phase by the North where virtually none of the resources or companies in the South were owned by southerners (black or white) and the abject poverty and lack of education that was institutionalzied (over half of share croppers were white). If you take that coupled with the fact that two very poor ethnic groups (blacks and southern baptist whites) migrated and peopled and influenced the culture of a large portion of this country you can argue that poorness is not ethnic, nor is it related to racial bias. It is more closely related to the fact that the poor have harder time making headway against the tide.

So what is the answer? The answer cannot be the gov’t. There are several reasons that I believe the gov’t is the wrong place to tackle this problem but I can only address two: 1.Size- the influx of gov’t funds or control in areas where these groups tend to cluster results on a off-balance economy. 2.Achievement- Any where that achievement is second to a person’s birth status, acheivement will suffer. No one should be allowed special consideration from any public institution based on their racial/ethnic groups.

Conversely, I believe private institutions are great for this sort of action. The VFW, St. Andrew’s or Caledonian Societies, Tribal organizations, Red Cross, Faith based orgs fill this bill very well. Can they replace welfare? I believe they can. In the absence of gov’t interference I beleive people are more likely to learn to fish… rather than wait for the fish to be delivered.

If you need further illumination into the inadequacy of allocating more funds to fix a problem look at the status of American education. Per capita spending relative to performance is left as an exercise for the reader.

142

[quote]RHINO928 wrote:
An interesting article from an interesting perspective…

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46440[/quote]

WOW!,This opinion comes from A black man.

How can you blame a natural disaster on a race of men?

The theory of the levee being a conspiracy is a joke.

As far as blacks turning this country into a ghetto within 3-10 days,I have to agree with the reverend.Oh,you want proof?,just remember the images of the looters and tell me honestly that they were looting for survival.EX,(jewlery,electronics,ETC.)

I’m sick of hearing the black man say that whites are holding them down!The facts are the black man is holding himself down.Before you judge take a long look in the mirror.

And no,I’m not a racist.I’m a realist.

jsextreme

143

[quote]vroom wrote:
Y’know, things aren’t “over” just because we want them to be over. There is something called a culture, that was created and that is very difficult to change.

Also, honestly, it is impossible to tell exactly where any dividing lines should be… nobody can come up with an exact measurement of these things.

However, that is not an excuse to ignore or trivialize the issue.

I’m not trying to say I know where it should be, or that reparations have to be made, but I have been talking about them – please don’t confuse the two.

The issue of reverse discrimination is an interesting one. The supreme court just refused to hear a case, an appeal, and in so doing didn’t challenge the decision of a lower court that race could be used as a qualifier or score adjustment for admissions to help ensure a diverse campus.

Anyway, like it or not, an incredible indescribable wrong has been committed. It has been ignored for generations, and because of such it is slowly fading away. Maybe it would be good to hasten that fading by any means possible.

I personally feel that people getting uptight about finding ways to uplift poorer segments of the populace are thinking that it means something negative would have to be done to them. It does not.

Getting poorer unproductive people off of social assistance and into productive tax paying careers can only benefit everyone! It ought to be something everyone wants to see happen.

Why would someone not want to do that? I get an uneasy feeling that I know the answer to that question…[/quote]

That’s like trying to get an unmotivated friend to lift. It ain’t gonna happen. You can’t “lift up the poor” only they can lift up themselves. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

144

[quote]JSEXTREME wrote:
RHINO928 wrote:
An interesting article from an interesting perspective…

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46440

WOW!,This opinion comes from A black man.

How can you blame a natural disaster on a race of men?

The theory of the levee being a conspiracy is a joke.

As far as blacks turning this country into a ghetto within 3-10 days,I have to agree with the reverend.Oh,you want proof?,just remember the images of the looters and tell me honestly that they were looting for survival.EX,(jewlery,electronics,ETC.)

I’m sick of hearing the black man say that whites are holding them down!The facts are the black man is holding himself down.Before you judge take a long look in the mirror.

And no,I’m not a racist.I’m a realist.

jsextreme[/quote]

And that’s the truth.

145

[quote]great421 wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
I never questioned yours or anyone else’s ability to think or comprehend right from wrong.

Again, equivocation does not suit a logical arguement. Go back and review your previous posts.

I love how people like you try to belittle statements by looking for logical holes in a statement and take part of what is said to support your logic.

Please understand, a logical arguement is the ONLY way to properly address / resolve an issue (even one as charged as the R-word); emotional statements are simply that. They are only based on personal opinion and individual experiance(s).

Belittle? That is an incorrect inference on your part.

It is easy to sit back and try to use logic to solve a problem that you believe you understand when all you see is the surface of that problem.

Following the laws of logic is the only way to truely resolve an issue. And it is hardly “easy” to use them when knowone else seems to either know them or chooses not to abide by them when constructing an arguement.

Additionally, who says that I understand only the surface aspects of the issue? Who says I understand ANY aspect of the issue??? I have made no such statement. I am simply trying to have a free exchange of ideas (hopefully) free of emotional bagagge and prejudices.

However, what I said is offering suggestions on how to fix something when you have no concept on how deep it is broken will fall on deaf ears. You will not be effective because you do not have any personal understanding of the nuances of the group of people you are trying to fix. It’s like trying to tell a mother who is giving birth how her contractions feel. If you’ve never done it, you can’t tell her anything (I dare you to do that and see if she doesn’t try to rip your nuts off).

I do know how deep this issue is - that is why I am expending time and energy with you.

And, I can percieve the injustice, suffering, and the pain of others even if I myself do not suffer from that particular type of problem at this moment in time. I am not devoid of feeling or compassion; but rather my compassion drives me to try and make the best resolution to this issue.

I do not have all the answers to make it right and I never said I did. What I said was I am tired of hearing quick fix suggestions from ultra-conservative whites and self-hating blacks that are really trying to keep this conflict going while they cash in on it. Also, I think that even asking a question like that is an attempt to try to dismiss the actual issue of mistreatment of minorities in this country.

Are you really saying (Again, in the context of a loaded question) that asking a person how to fix a problem is an attempt dismiss the problem?

Furthermore, by saying that the statement is emotionally charged, it is either a further attempt to dismiss what I am saying or a true lack of understanding of how many blacks feel in this country.

An emphatic denial of emotion is the surest sign of an emotionally charged statement.

Which is why outsiders shouldn’t be telling blacks how to solve their problems.

Who is an “outsider”??? The author of the original article (remember the one that began this whole discussion) is a black man. What other litmus test must a person pass before they can comment on pain and suffering? Who can “tell blacks how to solve their problems?”

You don’t see blacks in this country trying tell Native Americans how to fix their problems, because we know better than to tell them that.

Again, loaded statements (i.e. - statements based on a set of premises, [which may or may not be correct]) have no place in a logical disucssion.

However, I will at least give a starting suggestion on how to fix this, since this is what you were looking for anyway.

This is the only thing I really asked for - Your view on how to fix what is “broken” and how you define “fixed”.

The biggest step would be for the Federal Government to fully admit to the American People (not fly over to Africa and apologize to them for slavery in the USA) that many of these problems in the black community are a direct result of the government’s mistreatment of minorities and make a sincere public apology.

OK, now I truely understand. That statement has finally clarified the issue: Individual racism vs. Institutionalized racism.

Do really think the federal government of the USA is today actively participating in a policy of racism against minorities (i.e. - blacks?)

If you do, then will a simple apology by the current administration (merited or not) suffice?

That would never happen because there are too many people in this country that believe that this isn’t true and that blacks in this country are solely responsible for all their problems.

Again; LOgic LOGic, LOGIC! No rational thinking person would agree with either sides of the second porion of that loaded statement.

I, you, and probably everone else reading this post (except for maybe reddog) can agree that blacks are not “solely responsible for all their problems” - The question is: What do you / I / we do about it?

[/quote]

You misrepresent my position. What I said was “everyone is untlimately responsible for their own lot in life”. It is undeniable that most blacks have more hurdles in front of them that most whites. However, each of makes a decision to work to overcome our hurdles, or roll over & let life have it’s way with us.

146

[quote]rackrecker wrote:
The only thing interesting about this perspective is the simple-minded, circular reasoning that the reverend uses. The fact is that responsibility for the outcomes in New Orleans lies with no one race, gender or group of people. It just ain’t that easy.

I imagine he believes he is back-handing black men into becoming more responsible citizens. Clearly, urging people to be more responsible is a laudable goal. Sadly, however, the reverend himself acts irresponsibly using generalizations and stereotypes rather than reason and reasearch as a means to accomplish this goal.

I believe that everyone has the right to express their opinion. The scary thing is that many people will take the reverend’s opinion as fact in relation to all poor black men in New Orleans, rather than see it as the narrow-minded, ill-informed, subjective view that it is.
[/quote]

By using his generalizations that all blacks behave poorly he certainly is incorrect and fucks up some good points he makes by opening the racism can of worms.

147

I do not find the article “racist” by defenition, it is quite race specific though, and truthful on how blacks view and treat government handouts. We have a large Asian community here also, did you see any standing at the Superdome or running through WalMART looting? Not saying there were none, but by enlarge that demographic took care of themselves while blacks, again, choose to rely on Government.

Ironicaly, the majority of New Orleans city government positions are held by blacks. Now though, according to many blacks (including prominent National leaders) everything was handled according to race. Many are “hook, line and sinker” with the lie that the 17th street canal was blown to flood the black populated area and save the white populated area. That is complete BS and further proves what the author is stating.

There is ‘trash’ from every demographic and nationality on earth. That still does not negate the fact of how a large majority of blacks CHOOSE to live.

My wife’s gradparents (full blood Italian) lived in the St. Thomas projects in the first years they were built. It was considered one of the nicest neiborhoods in the city and remained so until blacks started moving into them. As caucasion people abondoned the place because of declining conditions, it turned into the St. Thomas we know today. You can look at nearly every urban project in the country and see the same thing. So why is that? Italian and other Euro imigrants lived in these same projects for 20+ years and it was kept nice. As the black population increased though, the living conditions declined. Is that racist, or really just a matter of fact?

148

I’m not talking about forcing anyone, but you can certainly impact a culture. You can certainly provide opportunities for the development of skills. You can certainly encourage appropiate behavior instead of encouraging dependence.

If you lead a horse to water, it will drink if and when it wants to, perhaps when you aren’t looking. The point is, let’s make the water available… some will drink, others may later, when they are thirsty.

The economic potential out there is tremendous… lets design the systems to incent the right things, and then we can all reap the benefits from it.

149

Probably both. In the long term they are also probably related…

150

[quote]vroom wrote:
That’s like trying to get an unmotivated friend to lift. It ain’t gonna happen. You can’t “lift up the poor” only they can lift up themselves. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

I’m not talking about forcing anyone, but you can certainly impact a culture. You can certainly provide opportunities for the development of skills. You can certainly encourage appropiate behavior instead of encouraging dependence.

If you lead a horse to water, it will drink if and when it wants to, perhaps when you aren’t looking. The point is, let’s make the water available… some will drink, others may later, when they are thirsty.

The economic potential out there is tremendous… lets design the systems to incent the right things, and then we can all reap the benefits from it.
[/quote]

All those things you mention are already available.

151

The fact that some minor initiatives are available doesn’t really capture the essence of what I’ve been talking about.

If you aren’t willing to look or think any deeper than that, just continue to work to place blame instead of seeking ways to change things.

That will help immensely.

152

[quote]vroom wrote:
All those things you mention are already available.

The fact that some minor initiatives are available doesn’t really capture the essence of what I’ve been talking about.

If you aren’t willing to look or think any deeper than that, just continue to work to place blame instead of seeking ways to change things.

That will help immensely.[/quote]

If the programs are there, and people don’t take advantage of them, what the hell do they expect? What is the essence of what your talking about? More programs for people to choose to ignore?

153

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
It was real easy for the white man to do that when they were the only ones still holding slaves to begin with. So let’s give them credit for policing themselves.
[/quote]

That’s an out and out lie. There were many blacks that owned their own slaves right here in the U.S.

You blame the white-man for everything that is wrong with the black man is getting more than a little played.

154

A God With Whom I am Not Familiar

A God With Whom I am Not Familiar
by Tim Wise
September 06, 2005

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This is an open letter to the man sitting behind me at La Paz today, in Nashville, at lunchtime, with the Brooks Brothers shirt:

You don’t know me. But I know you.

I watched you as you held hands with your tablemates at the restaurant where we both ate this afternoon. I listened as you prayed, and thanked God for the food you were about to eat, and for your own safety, several hundred miles away from the unfolding catastrophe in New Orleans.

You blessed your chimichanga in the name of Jesus Christ, and then proceeded to spend the better part of your meal–and mine, since I was too near your table to avoid hearing every word–morally scolding the people of that devastated city, heaping scorn on them for not heeding the warnings to leave before disaster struck. Then you attacked them–all of them, without distinction it seemed–for the behavior of a relative handful: those who have looted items like guns, or big screen TVs.

I heard you ask, amid the din of your colleagues “Amens,” why it was that instead of pitching in to help their fellow Americans, the people of New Orleans instead–again, all of them in your mind–chose to steal and shoot at relief helicopters.

I watched you wipe salsa from the corners of your mouth, as you nodded agreement to the statement of one of your friends, sitting to your right, her hair neatly coiffed, her makeup flawless, her jewelry sparkling. When you asked, rhetorically, why it was that people were so much more decent amid the tragedy of 9-11, as compared to the aftermath of Katrina, she had offered her response, but only after apologizing for what she admitted was going to sound harsh.

“Well,” Buffy explained. “It’s probably because in New Orleans, it seems to be mostly poor people, and you know, they just don’t have the same regard.”

She then added that police should shoot the looters, and should have done so from the beginning, so as to send a message to the rest that theft would not be tolerated. You, who had just thanked Jesus for your chips and guacamole, said you agreed. They should be shot. Praise the Lord.

Your God is one with whom I am not familiar.

Two thoughts.

First, it is a very fortunate thing for you, and likely for me, that my two young children were with me as I sat there, choking back fish tacos and my own seething rage, listening to you pontificate about shit you know nothing about.

Have you ever even been to New Orleans?

And no, by that I don’t mean the New Orleans of your company’s sales conference. I don’t mean Emeril’s New Orleans, or the New Orleans of Uptown Mardi Gras parties.

I mean the New Orleans that is buried as if it were Atlantis, in places like the lower 9th ward: 98 percent black, 40 percent poor, where bodies are floating down the street, flowing with the water as it seeks its own level. Have you met the people from that New Orleans? The New Orleans that is dying as I write this, and as you order another sweet tea?

I didn’t think so.

Your God–the one to whom you prayed today, and likely do before every meal, because this gesture proves what a good Christian you are–is one with whom I am not familiar.

Your God is one who you sincerely believe gives a flying fuck about your lunch. Your God is one who you seem to believe watches over you and blesses you, and brings good tidings your way, while simultaneously letting thousands of people watch their homes be destroyed, and perhaps ten thousand or more die, many of them in the streets for lack of water or food.

Did you ever stop to think just what a rancid asshole such a God would have to be, such that he would take care of the likes of you, while letting babies die in their mother’s arms, and old people in wheelchairs, at the foot of Canal Street?

Your God is one with whom I am not familiar.

But no, it isn’t God who’s the asshole here, Skip (or Brad, or Braxton, or whatever your name is).

God doesn’t feed you, and it isn’t God that kept me from turning around and beating your lily white privileged ass today either.

God has nothing to do with it.

God doesn’t care who wins the Super Bowl.

God doesn’t help anyone win an Academy Award.

God didn’t get you your last raise, or your SUV.

And if God is even half as tired as I am of having to listen to self-righteous bastards like you blame the victims of this nightmare for their fate, then you had best eat slowly from this point forward.

Why didn’t they evacuate like they were told?

Are you serious?

There are 100,000 people in that city without cars. Folks who are too poor to own their own vehicle, and who rely on public transportation every day. I know this might shock you. They don’t have a Hummer2, or whatever gas-guzzling piece of crap you either already own or probably are saving up for.

And no, they didn’t just choose not to own a car because the buses are so gosh-darned efficient and great, as Rush Limbaugh implied yesterday, and as you likely heard, since you’re the kind of person who hangs on the every word of such bloviating hacks as these.

Why did they loot?

Are you serious?

People are dying, in the streets, on live television. Fathers and mothers are watching their baby’s eyes bulge in their skulls from dehydration, and you are begrudging them some Goddamned candy bars, diapers and water?

If anything the poor of New Orleans have exercised restraint.

Maybe you didn’t know it, but the people of that city with whom you likely identify–the wealthy white folks of Uptown–were barely touched by this storm. Yeah, I guess God was watching over them: protecting them, and rewarding them for their faith and superior morality. If the folks downtown who are waiting desperately for their government to send help–a government whose resources have been stretched thin by a war that I’m sure you support, because you love freedom and democracy–were half as crazed as you think, they’d march down St. Charles Avenue right now and burn every mansion in sight. That they aren’t doing so suggests a decency and compassion for their fellow man and woman that sadly people like you lack.

Can you even imagine what you would do in their place?

Can you imagine what would happen if it were well-off white folks stranded like this without buses to get them out, without nourishment, without hope?

Putting aside the absurdity of the imagery–after all, such folks always have the means to seek safety, or the money to rebuild, or the political significance to ensure a much speedier response for their concerns–can you just imagine?

Can you imagine what would happen if the pampered, overfed corporate class, which complains about taxes taking a third of their bloated incomes, had to sit in the hot sun for four, going on five days? Without a Margarita or hotel swimming pool to comfort them I mean?

Oh, and please, I know. I’m stereotyping you. Imagine that. I’ve assumed, based only on your words, what kind of person you are, even though I suppose I could be wrong. How does that feel Biff? Hurt your feelings? So sorry. But hey, at least my stereotypes of you aren’t deadly. They won’t effect your life one bit, unlike the ones you carry around with you and display within earshot of people like me, supposing that no one could possibly disagree.

But I’m not wrong am I Chip? I know you. I see people like you all the time, in airports, in business suits, on their lunch breaks. People who will take advantage of any opportunity to ratify and reify their pre-existing prejudices towards the poor, towards black folks. You see the same three video loops of the same dozen or so looters on Fox News and you conclude that poor black people are crazy, immoral, criminal.

You, or others quite a bit like you, are the ones posting messages on chat room boards, calling looters sub-human “vermin,” “scum,” or “cockroaches.” I heard you use the word “animals” three times today: you and that woman across from you–what was her name? Skyler?

What was it you said as you scooped the last bite of black beans and rice into your eager mouth? Like zoo animals? Yes, I think that was it.

Well Chuck, it’s a free country, and so you certainly have the right I suppose to continue lecturing the poor, in between checking your Blackberry and dropping the kids off at soccer practice. If you want to believe that the poor of New Orleans are immoral and greedy, and unworthy of support at a time like this–or somehow more in need of your scolding than whatever donation you might make to a relief fund–so be it.

But let’s leave God out of it, shall we? All of it.

Your God is one with whom I am not familiar, and I’d prefer to keep it that way.

Tim Wise is the author of White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son (http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-68-9). He lived in New Orleans from 1986-1996. He can be reached at timjwise@msn.com

155

Their Leaders failed them. The Thug if a governor they have screwed up plain and simple. There were hundreds of busses under water just sitting there flooded. They could have been used to evacuate people. It did not happen. They fucked up PURE AND SIMPLE. But it’s ok the eteemed governor will send all of his people on a paid vacation to vegas, hell he’ll even provide the gambling money. Plenty of bad bad bad decisions were made down there, again it’s that simple.

156

SlimJim, thanks for posting that.

157

Nice piece of touchy-feely bullshit. How many fucking lives did the emotionally in-touch author save? So where does he get room to even open his pie hole if he is telling others what to do?

It’s shit like that that is an utter waste of time.

Why get angry at a person that is hundreds of miles away from the disaster? You should be getting mad at the inept leaders of an inept state and an inept city.

I can see where blaming a white guy eating a chimichanga hundreds of miles from NOLA would make you feel better, though. Almost as good as blaming Bush, huh? Blame anyone but the poor, ignorant bastards that were too helpless to help themselves.

158

Well SlimJim made the professor feel better. He exposed a view that the Prof shares and believes in. Thats good, good boy.

159

[quote]Nice piece of touchy-feely bullshit. How many fucking lives did the emotionally in-touch author save? So where does he get room to even open his pie hole if he is telling others what to do?

It’s shit like that that is an utter waste of time.[/quote]

Wow, what a piece of work you are. If the author can reach a few people and get them to be more understanding of the issues involved and perhaps not be so quick to judge, then he’s achieved his goal.

Is there something particularly wrong with that?

[quote]Why get angry at a person that is hundreds of miles away from the disaster? You should be getting mad at the inept leaders of an inept state and an inept city.

I can see where blaming a white guy eating a chimichanga hundreds of miles from NOLA would make you feel better, though. Almost as good as blaming Bush, huh? Blame anyone but the poor, ignorant bastards that were too helpless to help themselves.[/quote]

Blaming? What drugs are you on? The guy is not blaming the person eating for the problems that have happened. He’s disgusted by what he is hearing because it is incredibly ignorant.

You can’t fathom the difference between the two? Honestly?

Nothing the guy has said precludes being upset at problems that occurred within any level of government. I guess any viewpoint that doesn’t act in a protective manner of the administration is a complete waste of time?

160

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Nice piece of touchy-feely bullshit. How many fucking lives did the emotionally in-touch author save? So where does he get room to even open his pie hole if he is telling others what to do?

It’s shit like that that is an utter waste of time.

Why get angry at a person that is hundreds of miles away from the disaster? You should be getting mad at the inept leaders of an inept state and an inept city.

I can see where blaming a white guy eating a chimichanga hundreds of miles from NOLA would make you feel better, though. Almost as good as blaming Bush, huh? Blame anyone but the poor, ignorant bastards that were too helpless to help themselves. [/quote]

Blaming a white guy? This isn’t even about just blaming Bush. It is, however, about a problem that won’t disappear by ignoring that the roots of it go beyond “ignorant bastards that were too helpless to help themselves”. A lot went wrong locally AND in government as far as this disaster was handled. However, these people were poor because they were all waiting on government hand outs? Do you honestly think this way? All poor people are poor because they simply don’t want to work hard? Does this mean that people are rich in this country because they worked harder than everyone else?

I haven’t read every post in this thread, but the deafening majority voice seems to be one of “holier than thou” self rightousness and the inability to even admit that there is a problem that will take acknowledgement and support of those who wish to call themselves “Americans”. There are a lot of people you can throw blame at if that is your goal. The problem you seem to have is the inability to place any of that blame on you, us, or we. I don’t usually jump into debate about how someone else should live their life. However, it seems clear to me that if the goal is advancement towards a more positive end in this country, it will take all of us acknowledging that there is a problem and that we all may be contributing to it. I can say that, why can’t you?