[quote]ALDurr wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
The gov’t paid the actual people that were in internment camps. Not too many actual former slaves around. Paying people who were not slaves is just another handout. Besides, IMO reparations were already paid. The little thing called the Civil War.
How was the Civil War equivalent to reparations? …[/quote]
The freedom of the slaves was purchased with the blood of the white northern volunteers.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
The gov’t paid the actual people that were in internment camps. Not too many actual former slaves around. Paying people who were not slaves is just another handout. Besides, IMO reparations were already paid. The little thing called the Civil War.
Oh, how about for the Tuskeegee experiment? That wasn’t even that many years ago and some of those people are still alive. You did know about this, right? This is another one of those things where we have experienced the exact same things as every other race, isn’t it? This just ended in the late 70’s and early 80’s, by the way. Not one President until Clinton even gave an apology for it.
Can we at least give these families reparations? Is that considered “not working” as well?[/quote]
This is horrible. No question some type of payoff is in order for the survivors.
This is not the same thing as the silly slavery reparations.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
This is horrible. No question some type of payoff is in order for the survivors.
This is not the same thing as the silly slavery reparations.[/quote]
Now you confuse me. Please, let me in on the logic that allows you to understand that people were used as lab rats and that their families deserve some kind of compensation for it…but also allows you to look at lynchings, wrongful imprisonment and blatant racism that came in the years after slavery and come to the conclusion that everyone should just “get over it”. The Tuskeegee Experiment lasted into the 70’s. That means that throughout the time that Generation X was being born, people who looked like me were being used as no more than white mice. How is it racism has to be explained to anyone when people today were born into it like that? Is it just me? Please, explain to me the cut off point that allows you to ignore it and assume that it is an “excuse”.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
This is horrible. No question some type of payoff is in order for the survivors.
This is not the same thing as the silly slavery reparations.
Now you confuse me. Please, let me in on the logic that allows you to understand that people were used as lab rats and that their families deserve some kind of compensation for it…but also allows you to look at lynchings, wrongful imprisonment and blatant racism that came in the years after slavery and come to the conclusion that everyone should just “get over it”. The Tuskeegee Experiment lasted into the 70’s. That means that throughout the time that Generation X was being born, people who looked like me were being used as no more than white mice. How is it racism has to be explained to anyone when people today were born into it like that? Is it just me? Please, explain to me the cut off point that allows you to ignore it and assume that it is an “excuse”.[/quote]
Many of these people are still alive as are their immediate families.
The slaves and slave owners are long dead. Slavery ended about 140 years ago.
I don’t know what the exact cut off point is but we are well past in with the slavery thing, time to move on.
Prof X, maybe we are talking about two different things.
I think talk of paying reparations for slavery is completely foolish.
I do recognize racism is alive and well. We have come a long way but we still have a long way to go.
I don’t think the article is racist in and of itself. A black man pointing out what he perceives as problems in the black community should be discussed and not immediately dismissed as racist.
In general black people have it tougher than white people in this country. No question some of it is due to racism past and present. Other problems are of their own creation.
Vroom.
In response to your post. The concept of reverse discrimination is alive and well in Affirmative Action.
For instance, did you know that the average white southern baptist family has less education and less money that the average black family? Oh, and that this has been so since 1970? So, based on need and demographic information how could you not argue that White Southern Baptist’s deserve that money more that the blacks?
Or howsabout the fact that Jews and Asians make up ~50% of the Harvard annual enrollment. Add to that the annual 15% self-imposed quota for minorities and you have less than 35% of the class open to the much-feared and maligned W.A.S.P.
Any policy that takes into account race, sex, and/or religion has no place in government. That policy becomes a value judgement of a people and we (as a nation) suffered much to provide that opportunity. Sure, it has taken much strife and political change to do away with the trappings of segregation… but if you want to do some number crunching you’ll find that the average education and income gap between Nothern whites and Southern whites is greater than the difference between blacks and whites within the same region.
The reality of the situation is that people tend to remain poor until they decide otherwise. My family is dirt poor. They have been since the Cherokee Trail of Tears. This generation between my dad, my brothers, and I we are finally managing to pull the wagon out of the rut. Why? Someone finally said “What I have… is NOT good enough for my children.” That was my father, and all of his choices are based on that solitary fact.
Done.
PS. This post has been generated by a Scots-Irish/Cherokee atheist and is not biodegradable.
head explodes after readin artical
[quote]ALDurr wrote:
jackzepplin wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
How can you all even begin to offer your opinion on things you know absolutely nothing about? I don’t care if you lived in the ghetto for a while. I don’t care if you have a black friend. If you are not of the black community, your opinions are of an outsider looking in and are not going to hold much water.
Oh, well then, piss off. Your attitude will continue to divide. Perhaps I don’t need to have the experience of living in the ghetto or being “black”? How about I just continue to be a success and be an “example”. Your logic is all jacked up.
I would respond, but it is just not worth it. Go off and be a success, but stop wasting my time. ASSHOLE![/quote]
Looks like you had enough time to muster up another incorrect response. I’m not an asshole, I’m a whole ass.
This is the kind of attitude that shows your true color. It doesn’t matter if you’re black or white. You’ve obviously drawn a line in the sand.
Grandpa Ralph, is that really you? Geez, I thought you were dead.
The only thing interesting about this perspective is the simple-minded, circular reasoning that the reverend uses. The fact is that responsibility for the outcomes in New Orleans lies with no one race, gender or group of people. It just ain’t that easy.
I imagine he believes he is back-handing black men into becoming more responsible citizens. Clearly, urging people to be more responsible is a laudable goal. Sadly, however, the reverend himself acts irresponsibly using generalizations and stereotypes rather than reason and reasearch as a means to accomplish this goal.
I believe that everyone has the right to express their opinion. The scary thing is that many people will take the reverend’s opinion as fact in relation to all poor black men in New Orleans, rather than see it as the narrow-minded, ill-informed, subjective view that it is.
“9/11 taught us that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.”
I learned that years before from Wing Commander III…
[quote]rackrecker wrote:
The only thing interesting about this perspective is the simple-minded, circular reasoning that the reverend uses. The fact is that responsibility for the outcomes in New Orleans lies with no one race, gender or group of people. It just ain’t that easy.
I imagine he believes he is back-handing black men into becoming more responsible citizens. Clearly, urging people to be more responsible is a laudable goal. Sadly, however, the reverend himself acts irresponsibly using generalizations and stereotypes rather than reason and reasearch as a means to accomplish this goal.
I believe that everyone has the right to express their opinion. The scary thing is that many people will take the reverend’s opinion as fact in relation to all poor black men in New Orleans, rather than see it as the narrow-minded, ill-informed, subjective view that it is.
[/quote]
There ya go! One of them has understood.
Y’know, things aren’t “over” just because we want them to be over. There is something called a culture, that was created and that is very difficult to change.
Also, honestly, it is impossible to tell exactly where any dividing lines should be… nobody can come up with an exact measurement of these things.
However, that is not an excuse to ignore or trivialize the issue.
I’m not trying to say I know where it should be, or that reparations have to be made, but I have been talking about them – please don’t confuse the two.
The issue of reverse discrimination is an interesting one. The supreme court just refused to hear a case, an appeal, and in so doing didn’t challenge the decision of a lower court that race could be used as a qualifier or score adjustment for admissions to help ensure a diverse campus.
Anyway, like it or not, an incredible indescribable wrong has been committed. It has been ignored for generations, and because of such it is slowly fading away. Maybe it would be good to hasten that fading by any means possible.
I personally feel that people getting uptight about finding ways to uplift poorer segments of the populace are thinking that it means something negative would have to be done to them. It does not.
Getting poorer unproductive people off of social assistance and into productive tax paying careers can only benefit everyone! It ought to be something everyone wants to see happen.
Why would someone not want to do that? I get an uneasy feeling that I know the answer to that question…
[quote]ALDurr wrote:
I never questioned yours or anyone else’s ability to think or comprehend right from wrong. [/quote]
Again, equivocation does not suit a logical arguement. Go back and review your previous posts.
Please understand, a logical arguement is the ONLY way to properly address / resolve an issue (even one as charged as the R-word); emotional statements are simply that. They are only based on personal opinion and individual experiance(s).
Belittle? That is an incorrect inference on your part.
Following the laws of logic is the only way to truely resolve an issue. And it is hardly “easy” to use them when knowone else seems to either know them or chooses not to abide by them when constructing an arguement.
Additionally, who says that I understand only the surface aspects of the issue? Who says I understand ANY aspect of the issue??? I have made no such statement. I am simply trying to have a free exchange of ideas (hopefully) free of emotional bagagge and prejudices.
I do know how deep this issue is - that is why I am expending time and energy with you.
And, I can percieve the injustice, suffering, and the pain of others even if I myself do not suffer from that particular type of problem at this moment in time. I am not devoid of feeling or compassion; but rather my compassion drives me to try and make the best resolution to this issue.
Are you really saying (Again, in the context of a loaded question) that asking a person how to fix a problem is an attempt dismiss the problem?
An emphatic denial of emotion is the surest sign of an emotionally charged statement.
Who is an “outsider”??? The author of the original article (remember the one that began this whole discussion) is a black man. What other litmus test must a person pass before they can comment on pain and suffering? Who can “tell blacks how to solve their problems?”
Again, loaded statements (i.e. - statements based on a set of premises, [which may or may not be correct]) have no place in a logical disucssion.
This is the only thing I really asked for - Your view on how to fix what is “broken” and how you define “fixed”.
OK, now I truely understand. That statement has finally clarified the issue: Individual racism vs. Institutionalized racism.
Do really think the federal government of the USA is today actively participating in a policy of racism against minorities (i.e. - blacks?)
If you do, then will a simple apology by the current administration (merited or not) suffice?
Again; LOgic LOGic, LOGIC! No rational thinking person would agree with either sides of the second porion of that loaded statement.
I, you, and probably everone else reading this post (except for maybe reddog) can agree that blacks are not “solely responsible for all their problems” - The question is: What do you / I / we do about it?
That is all I would like to know; but your implicit answer seems to be dependant on a number of things that must happen (see below) before you can respond…
Again, forgive me - that would take days to untangle.
When have I made a definative statement about the implicit subject at hand? Other than to say (addressing the original intent of this thread) that the author of the WND post was not racist.
I simply chose to address you because your comments were the MOST inflamitory and to try to get you to use logical constructs when making an agruement. I could (and maybe should) get to reddogs statements next…
[quote] It gets frustrating to discuss things with people that will never understand because they do not possess the experiences to understand. Mind you, it is only an assumption based on what you wrote. You could very well have these experiences and I just don’t know it.
I am jumping off my soapbox now. [/quote]
Yes, your misgivings are accurate - I indeed know much / have experianced much racism; but I am not bitter.
Unforgiveness will eat you alive if you let it - I decided not to let it eat me.
MIKE
Agreeing with a lot of what the Reverend said, I also think that the biggest “Moral Poverty” was how the US military was sent in to NO to guard assets instead of providing basic needs and security for the people.
Desperate people do desperate things. It’s basic survival. Provide basic needs (rice, beans, water, shelter) and you cut out the majority of the shit that’s happening down there.
When the shit hits the fan, corporate assets are covered by insurance; they don’t need to be fed, clothed, and protected. People do. If they aren’t provided with it, then they either take it by force or lay down to die.
[quote]AlbertaBeef wrote:
“9/11 taught us that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.”
I learned that years before from Wing Commander III…[/quote]
LOL … which was actually a rip-off of Thomas Jefferson.
What a fun game. I still to this day can’t believe they got Luke Skywalker to play Colonel Blair in that. And Caligula was the bad guy!! I guess it was lean times back then for Malcolm McDowell and Mark Hamill, huh? 
[quote]
jackzepplin wrote:
How about I just continue to be a success and be an “example”. Your logic is all jacked up.
ALDurr wrote:
I would respond, but it is just not worth it. Go off and be a success, but stop wasting my time. ASSHOLE! [/quote]
Question for ALDurr:
Who “forced” you to waist your time and respond?
MIKE
[quote]AlbertaBeef wrote:
Agreeing with a lot of what the Reverend said, I also think that the biggest “Moral Poverty” was how the US military was sent in to NO to guard assets instead of providing basic needs and security for the people.[/quote]
Good point. You can’t feed people with guns. Still, if you got a chance to see hedo’s posts about NO and the Katrina aftermath, you might change your tune just a little. The military was not sitting on its hands, despite what the media wants you to think. I can’t help but wonder if we could have done things a little better coordination-wise, but it’s not like people were dying of starvation while the soldiers impassively stood guard in front of banks and Wal-Marts.
[quote]quan2m wrote:
Vroom.
In response to your post. The concept of reverse discrimination is alive and well in Affirmative Action.
For instance, did you know that the average white southern baptist family has less education and less money that the average black family? Oh, and that this has been so since 1970? So, based on need and demographic information how could you not argue that White Southern Baptist’s deserve that money more that the blacks?
Or howsabout the fact that Jews and Asians make up ~50% of the Harvard annual enrollment. Add to that the annual 15% self-imposed quota for minorities and you have less than 35% of the class open to the much-feared and maligned W.A.S.P.
Any policy that takes into account race, sex, and/or religion has no place in government. That policy becomes a value judgement of a people and we (as a nation) suffered much to provide that opportunity. Sure, it has taken much strife and political change to do away with the trappings of segregation… but if you want to do some number crunching you’ll find that the average education and income gap between Nothern whites and Southern whites is greater than the difference between blacks and whites within the same region.
The reality of the situation is that people tend to remain poor until they decide otherwise. My family is dirt poor. They have been since the Cherokee Trail of Tears. This generation between my dad, my brothers, and I we are finally managing to pull the wagon out of the rut. Why? Someone finally said “What I have… is NOT good enough for my children.” That was my father, and all of his choices are based on that solitary fact.
Done.
PS. This post has been generated by a Scots-Irish/Cherokee atheist and is not biodegradable.[/quote]
I smell bullshit. Gimme some numbers. Show me 600 Green/Gold/Berg/Steins along with Nguyen/Chin/Fin/Lin enrolled at Harvard every year. Not to say these groups don’t have higher accpetance rates.
Asians have higher standardized test scores and GPA’s. Bingo higher accpetance rate logical. Check.
Harvard has a block on their application that asks if you are applying for finanacial aid. Check. Hmm… Not to extrapolate from stereotypes but maybe this is why you wanna single out the Jews?
Now Hispanics, Black and Native Americans? Low test scores, low GPAs… Hmm… Wonder why they get in at all? Does it behoove anyone to have a dumb classmate regardless of color?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Ridiculous statement. It only holds truth if the victim is no longer dealing with any outward affliction. It is like telling a rape victim, who still gets raped occasionally, to get over it. It is something you don’t understand because you refuse to understand it. It isn’t that it is beyond your capability.[/quote]
Good point but I think to add to your analogy that you NEVER address is that the same rape victim needs to stop walking around topless with a pair of shorts that say “Please butt fuck me” on the back.
IF every black person in the US had the mentality that you do X, this thread wouldn’t even exist.
From your thousands of posts, you are proud (and should be) of the hard work in the gym, classroom and at work that you have displayed in life. You are a straight-shooting, no-nonsense person who isn’t afraid to say what’s on your mind.
You talk about your Mother who raised you well.
But, sadly, you are a privileged minority in the black population in this country. And for that matter, you are a minority of any race in this country.
We are a lazy country. We want everything done for us, and it’s easy to sit back and be lazy and blame others. It’s not just blacks - it’s our culture. People don’t want the truth.
Look on this fucking site. You address it EVERYDAY on here…There’s a new person everyday on here…how can I get big QUICKER? I’ve been working out seven years and I weigh 125, etc… The truth hurts and it’s easier to be lazy. AND the scary thing is the people on THIS site are probably in the Top 10 percent in this nation’s physical fitness.
I guess my point is that people don’t “understand” because they just don’t give a shit. Honestly. And when people who don’t give a shit hear other people bringing up concerns in their life, they label it complaining.
It’s a lost battle because there’s too much bitterness and laziness on everyone’s part in this country. Moreover, you can’t deal with such a complex problem on a internet thread and expect to really get somewhere. You can’t hear passion, anger, laughter in these typed words.
SO, America does what it’s best at…we write articles, shoot TV stories and present polish pieces of shit that do nothing but continue the problem.
You know what will solve all this crap…interracial marriage. That’s when you get to know someone and when getting your info from Jerry Springer or trying to educate the minds of every white guy on a bbing site seems distant.
You love that person for who they are, not their color.
On the topic of dating, love, dude…Prof. X…from our previous talks…there’s NO way in hell you have a gf, wife, etc…
It’s not because you aren’t a great person, you spend all your time on this site…holy crap…you are in every thread. I need your job…amazing.
God Bless.