Moral Poverty Cost Blacks in New Orleans

[ALDurr]

[quote]Gregus wrote:
Black schools are not underfunded because of the government. They’re underfunded because the same attitude you had to endure from your own peers when you tried to educate yourself.[/quote]

Huh? Those peers didn’t hold the money to fund the schools, the government did. If you are saying that the government had that attitude, you are dead right

That’s where it starts. Slavery was unfortunate and dead wrong. God bless all who lived that tortured life.

But how come you can’t realise that slavery has been present in the world for thousands of years. Even before the white man. It was common practice by the entire world, the white man got plugged in this system. Honestly i’m not rying to trivialise, but how many blacks owned slaves themselves in foreign countires? How may blacks kings sold out neghboring tribes to be used as curreny? Those were the attitudes of the times, screwed up attitudes needing of serious evolution, but they were the attitudes of the time none the less.

Could you even consider giving any credit for ending slavery? Worldwide? The white man was the first one to end slavery and declare it illegal anywhere he could influence. Why are whites always labeled as slavers when it was not the case at all. Your thoughts on this topic PARTLY not wholly betray your misguded indoctrination into hatred and seeing only the parts of the picture you want to see.

It was real easy for the white man to do that when they were the only ones still holding slaves to begin with. So let’s give them credit for policing themselves.

[quote]
Let me ask you a question and please answer when you bring this out to it’s most final conclusion.

What does a sad and bitter victim mentality accomplish for a black person?

my answer: Nothing. And nothing is what the cancer known as bitterness will let you accomplish.[/quote]

ProfX already addressed this smug and self-serving comment. Again, this demonstrates how little you truly understand what goes on in the good ol’ USA.

[LBRTRN]

[quote]ALDurr wrote:

When groups of white conservative males agree with your message about how to “fix” your own community it usually means that you are connecting more with the white conservative males than with your own community.[/quote]

So let me get this straight. Whites cant criticize the black community and any blacks that criticize the black community are simply white sympathisers? Do you not see the problem with that?

The following quote is from Benjiman Franklin and I think it sums up the opinions of many:

“I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”

Here are a few from Washington Carver that have never been more relavent:

“Ninety-nine percent of the failures come from people who have the habit of making excuses.”

“When our thoughts - which bring actions - are filled with hate against anyone, Negro or white, we are in a living hell. That is as real as hell will ever be.”

Here are a few from Booker T. Washington. If this man were alive today I can all but promise he would be known as an Uncle Tom:

“We shall constitute one-third and more of the ignorance and crime of the South, or one-third its intelligence and progress; we shall contribute one-third to the business and industrial prosperity of the South, or we shall prove a veritable body of death, stagnating, depressing, retarding every effort to advance the body politic.”

“Character, not circumstances, makes the man.”

“Few things can help an individual more than to place responsibility on him, and to let him know that you trust him.”

“I have learned that success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has had to overcome while trying to succeed.”

“No man, who continues to add something to the material, intellectual and moral well-being of the place in which he lives, is left long without proper reward.”

“Nothing ever comes to one, that is worth having, except as a result of hard work.”

“The individual who can do something that the world wants done will, in the end, make his way regardless of his race.”

“At the bottom of education, at the bottom of politics, even at the bottom of religion, there must be for our race economic independence.”

“I have never had much patience with the multitudes of people who are always ready to explain why one cannot succeed. I have always had high regard for the man who could tell me how to succeed.”

“Nor shall we permit our grievances overshadow our opportunities.”

“Our republic is the outgrowth of the desire for liberty that is natural in every human breast . . . freedom of body, mind, and soul, and the most complete guarantee of the safety of life and property.”

“More and more thoughtful students of the race problem are beginning to see that business and industry constitute what we may call the strategic points in its solution.”

Washington and Carver were both strong advocates of self reliance and I think blacks and whites have a lot to learn from them both.

[ALDurr]

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

Which is what makes Rev. Peterson’s argument powerful, because he is an “insider”. Why do you label him a self-hating black? Because he advocates personal responsibility, & critizes those who don’t? Is it because he points out things in popular culture that glorify fatherless, welfare dependand families? Because he refuses to accept excuses, and points out that everyone is ultimately responsibe for their own lot in life, regardless of the hardships they face?

[/quote]

reddog, his arguments may be powerful and in many cases right, but he uses parts of statements from other black leaders to discredit them and to raise himself up at their expense, and by the way “buy my book”. He is not offering any help, suggestions or plans, he is just selling a product and capitalizing on others. This is why I call him self-hating. He is not truly an insider, but an opportunist. He knows the quickest way to get attention is to do what he is doing and attack his own people.

[ALDurr]

[quote]jackzepplin wrote:
ALDurr wrote:

How can you all even begin to offer your opinion on things you know absolutely nothing about? I don’t care if you lived in the ghetto for a while. I don’t care if you have a black friend. If you are not of the black community, your opinions are of an outsider looking in and are not going to hold much water.

Oh, well then, piss off. Your attitude will continue to divide. Perhaps I don’t need to have the experience of living in the ghetto or being “black”? How about I just continue to be a success and be an “example”. Your logic is all jacked up.
[/quote]

I would respond, but it is just not worth it. Go off and be a success, but stop wasting my time. ASSHOLE!

[Gregus]

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
Gregus wrote:
Black schools are not underfunded because of the government. They’re underfunded because the same attitude you had to endure from your own peers when you tried to educate yourself.

Huh? Those peers didn’t hold the money to fund the schools, the government did. If you are saying that the government had that attitude, you are dead right

That’s where it starts. Slavery was unfortunate and dead wrong. God bless all who lived that tortured life.

But how come you can’t realise that slavery has been present in the world for thousands of years. Even before the white man. It was common practice by the entire world, the white man got plugged in this system. Honestly i’m not rying to trivialise, but how many blacks owned slaves themselves in foreign countires? How may blacks kings sold out neghboring tribes to be used as curreny? Those were the attitudes of the times, screwed up attitudes needing of serious evolution, but they were the attitudes of the time none the less.

Could you even consider giving any credit for ending slavery? Worldwide? The white man was the first one to end slavery and declare it illegal anywhere he could influence. Why are whites always labeled as slavers when it was not the case at all. Your thoughts on this topic PARTLY not wholly betray your misguded indoctrination into hatred and seeing only the parts of the picture you want to see.

It was real easy for the white man to do that when they were the only ones still holding slaves to begin with. So let’s give them credit for policing themselves.

Let me ask you a question and please answer when you bring this out to it’s most final conclusion.

What does a sad and bitter victim mentality accomplish for a black person?

my answer: Nothing. And nothing is what the cancer known as bitterness will let you accomplish.

ProfX already addressed this smug and self-serving comment. Again, this demonstrates how little you truly understand what goes on in the good ol’ USA.

[/quote]

no smugness was implied, sorry if it came off that way. You can’t let the past put the shackels on your future.

[Gregus]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Gregus wrote:
What does a sad and bitter victim mentality accomplish for a black person?

my answer: Nothing. And nothing is what the cancer known as bitterness will let you accomplish.

Ridiculous statement. It only holds truth if the victim is no longer dealing with any outward affliction. It is like telling a rape victim, who still gets raped occasionally, to get over it. It is something you don’t understand because you refuse to understand it. It isn’t that it is beyond your capability.[/quote]

yes, dealing with aflictions. i see what you’re saying. but let me ask you this, what was done to YOU PERSONALLY? Since you;re not an appointed representative of your race, what has been done to YOU individually by this government?

[Gregus]

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
Gregus wrote:
Black schools are not underfunded because of the government. They’re underfunded because the same attitude you had to endure from your own peers when you tried to educate yourself.

Huh? Those peers didn’t hold the money to fund the schools, the government did. If you are saying that the government had that attitude, you are dead right

That’s where it starts. Slavery was unfortunate and dead wrong. God bless all who lived that tortured life.

But how come you can’t realise that slavery has been present in the world for thousands of years. Even before the white man. It was common practice by the entire world, the white man got plugged in this system. Honestly i’m not rying to trivialise, but how many blacks owned slaves themselves in foreign countires? How may blacks kings sold out neghboring tribes to be used as curreny? Those were the attitudes of the times, screwed up attitudes needing of serious evolution, but they were the attitudes of the time none the less.

Could you even consider giving any credit for ending slavery? Worldwide? The white man was the first one to end slavery and declare it illegal anywhere he could influence. Why are whites always labeled as slavers when it was not the case at all. Your thoughts on this topic PARTLY not wholly betray your misguded indoctrination into hatred and seeing only the parts of the picture you want to see.

It was real easy for the white man to do that when they were the only ones still holding slaves to begin with. So let’s give them credit for policing themselves.

Let me ask you a question and please answer when you bring this out to it’s most final conclusion.

What does a sad and bitter victim mentality accomplish for a black person?

my answer: Nothing. And nothing is what the cancer known as bitterness will let you accomplish.

ProfX already addressed this smug and self-serving comment. Again, this demonstrates how little you truly understand what goes on in the good ol’ USA.

[/quote]
I understand more then you think. What i see from your responses is the past affecting your future, similarly to Prof X.

Labeling my arguments as self serving does not answer the question. All arguments made here are self serving, so oblidge me and answer the simple question please, can you handle it? Just answer the question…

[Gregus]

Ofcourse noone wants to point out that Blacks could get anywhere they want to get to and be anything they want to be here in America. Last i checked this was the best place in the world to be black. I dare any black person to tell me of a wonderfull country where they could make it better then here in the good old USA!

All i see in this thread is people keeping themselves and eachother down.

Prof X is man enought to point out oburdities in my statements. He’s quick to criticise and dismiss but last in line to acknowledge. When i acknowledged his Tuskegee argument, he responded with ignoring the issue and moving on from then on. Looks like someone does not like their baloon deflated through acknowledgement. Much better to keep the mindset of noone understanding and disallowing forgiveness, even in a small scale on an annonymous chat board.

I dare you prof to be man enough to say:

“it makes me feel better for a white man to say my people deserve reparations”

Go ahead try it.

[reddog6376]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Then let’s move forward. I think there is no right way to actually give monetary reparations for the atrocity of slavery. I think it would be an impossible undertaking that could have potentially extremely negative consequences. This is where I disagree with what I heard from Farakhan. However, if any of you are so duped as to believe that this is his entire message, then you yourselves are victims of a machine in America that seems to be gaining strength lately…the ability to fool large groups of people into believing falsehoods about the message of anyone who thinks differently than those currently in power in our government. We have had at least two solid examples of this in this thread alone.[/quote]

Farakhan is a racist bigot.
http://www.adl.org/special_reports/farrakhan_own_words2/farrakhan_own_words.asp

He wants a seperate nation for blacks.
http://www.blackapologetics.com/noiwhat.html

As these are his own words, how am I being fooled? [quote]

You don’t correct the damage done by telling people to effectively get over it. You correct it by dealing with the causes of the problem and presenting more facilities for aid for those who need it. I agree that welfare may need to change, but it by no means needs to be disbanded all because some refuse to admit that long lasting damage was done that you can’t just get over in all cases.

This is an American problem, not a problem of black people.
[/quote]
Correct it how? By giving preferential treatment to somebody based on the color of their skin? That’s racism.
The first issue is to identify the problem. IMO, most of the problem comes from within black culture itself, and has nothing to do with instutional racism.

[reddog6376]

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:

Which is what makes Rev. Peterson’s argument powerful, because he is an “insider”. Why do you label him a self-hating black? Because he advocates personal responsibility, & critizes those who don’t? Is it because he points out things in popular culture that glorify fatherless, welfare dependand families? Because he refuses to accept excuses, and points out that everyone is ultimately responsibe for their own lot in life, regardless of the hardships they face?

reddog, his arguments may be powerful and in many cases right, but he uses parts of statements from other black leaders to discredit them and to raise himself up at their expense, and by the way “buy my book”. He is not offering any help, suggestions or plans, he is just selling a product and capitalizing on others. This is why I call him self-hating. He is not truly an insider, but an opportunist. He knows the quickest way to get attention is to do what he is doing and attack his own people.[/quote]
Or perhaps he’s discrediting them because they deserve to be discredited. “His own people”? That’s part of the problem. What is his own people? Blacks? Americans? Californians? It goes back to the melting pot vs. the mixed salad argument. Aren’t we all in this ride together?

[Professor_X]

[quote]Gregus wrote:
Ofcourse noone wants to point out that Blacks could get anywhere they want to get to and be anything they want to be here in America. Last i checked this was the best place in the world to be black. I dare any black person to tell me of a wonderfull country where they could make it better then here in the good old USA!

All i see in this thread is people keeping themselves and eachother down.

Prof X is man enought to point out oburdities in my statements. He’s quick to criticise and dismiss but last in line to acknowledge. When i acknowledged his Tuskegee argument, he responded with ignoring the issue and moving on from then on. Looks like someone does not like their baloon deflated through acknowledgement. Much better to keep the mindset of noone understanding and disallowing forgiveness, even in a small scale on an annonymous chat board.

I dare you prof to be man enough to say:

“it makes me feel better for a white man to say my people deserve reparations”

Go ahead try it.[/quote]

You have just proved yourself an idiot. I have already clearly stated that I don’t believe monetary reparations are the answer and wrote why. You were actually lame enough to accuse me of wanting it 2 or 3 posts later? Seriously, what are you smoking? What I do want is the ackowledgement that the problem is the cause of past doings and things currently going on that have only recently begun to subside.

[vroom]

Reddog,

You can’t ignore history completely just because it is inconvenient.

Going back a ways, in this thread, I laid out pretty clearly how the things that happen to you while growing up will have a large influence on your life… and hence the life of your children.

It is great to say that “things are better now”, but just because there is no official government sanctioned racism it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

By the way, if reparations were made, it would not be a racist thing to do so via policies geared towards people that are being given reparations. How stupid is that viewpoint?

The whole point of reparations is to tilt the playing field so that it is easier to get up and out of the situation that exists today. Yet, in your infinite wisdom, you claim that would be a negative.

Will it ever happen, I doubt it.

However, to ask for specific examples, as if racism is something that has been made up is just incredibly stupid. I can barely believe it when I read your posts. You actually type that shit?

[reddog6376]

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
Gregus wrote:
Black schools are not underfunded because of the government. They’re underfunded because the same attitude you had to endure from your own peers when you tried to educate yourself.

Huh? Those peers didn’t hold the money to fund the schools, the government did. If you are saying that the government had that attitude, you are dead right
[/quote]

What gov’t? The vast majority of school funding comes from state & local sources. 93% to be exact.
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/books/fulltext/schoolfigures/Chapter4.pdf

So to blame the federal gov’t would be a mistake. This study also points out that increased spending on schools does little or nothing to improve performance.
Maybe school choice would be a good option…

No Vouchers for You

[Gregus]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Gregus wrote:
Ofcourse noone wants to point out that Blacks could get anywhere they want to get to and be anything they want to be here in America. Last i checked this was the best place in the world to be black. I dare any black person to tell me of a wonderfull country where they could make it better then here in the good old USA!

All i see in this thread is people keeping themselves and eachother down.

Prof X is man enought to point out oburdities in my statements. He’s quick to criticise and dismiss but last in line to acknowledge. When i acknowledged his Tuskegee argument, he responded with ignoring the issue and moving on from then on. Looks like someone does not like their baloon deflated through acknowledgement. Much better to keep the mindset of noone understanding and disallowing forgiveness, even in a small scale on an annonymous chat board.

I dare you prof to be man enough to say:

“it makes me feel better for a white man to say my people deserve reparations”

Go ahead try it.

You have just proved yourself an idiot. I have already clearly stated that I don’t believe monetary reparations are the answer and wrote why. You were actually lame enough to accuse me of wanting it 2 or 3 posts later? Seriously, what are you smoking? What I do want is the ackowledgement that the problem is the cause of past doings and things currently going on that have only recently begun to subside. [/quote]

Ok. Thank you for showing me my stupidity oh enlightened one. You’re a comlicated human to say the least.

funny i just decided to edit this post but will leave the original part alone.

The issue that i understood you having Professor, and that’s if i read between the lines correctly is that of ACKNOWLEDGEMENT and not one of monetary compensation. This is what i ment by my post, i gave you the acknowledgement you were seeking. Calling me and idiot is a personal attack, and you how it goes. If you can’t argue the post then by all means accuse, belittle and harass the poster. Classic just classic.

[Gregus]

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
Gregus wrote:
Black schools are not underfunded because of the government. They’re underfunded because the same attitude you had to endure from your own peers when you tried to educate yourself.

Huh? Those peers didn’t hold the money to fund the schools, the government did. If you are saying that the government had that attitude, you are dead right

What gov’t? The vast majority of school funding comes from state & local sources. 93% to be exact.
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/books/fulltext/schoolfigures/Chapter4.pdf

So to blame the federal gov’t would be a mistake. This study also points out that increased spending on schools does little or nothing to improve performance.
Maybe school choice would be a good option…

No Vouchers for You

[/quote]

Your first and second paragraph is what i was saying with my comment to the original poster. Black communities don’t value education, they laugh at the ones that do. Then wonder why the schools are in shambles. It’s not whitey’s fault. Somehow Asian communities don;t have that problem, come to think of it neither do the Eastern Indian (india) communities both of which are very large and growing. Both are spewing out scientists, doctors, lawyers and business owners.

[reddog6376]

[quote]vroom wrote:
Reddog,

You can’t ignore history completely just because it is inconvenient.

Going back a ways, in this thread, I laid out pretty clearly how the things that happen to you while growing up will have a large influence on your life… and hence the life of your children.[/quote] What’s your point? Everybody has to deal with their own personal shit. Those that overcome it succeed, those that don’t don’t. How is race relevent? [quote]

It is great to say that “things are better now”, but just because there is no official government sanctioned racism it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
[/quote]
But if it’s not racism by the gov’t, how can you expect the gov’t to make up for it? Should the gov’t pay me because Joe Blow discriminated against me? [quote]

By the way, if reparations were made, it would not be a racist thing to do so via policies geared towards people that are being given reparations. How stupid is that viewpoint?[/quote]
Because nobody recieving reparations for slavery actually went through slavery, the whole idea is idiotic.[quote]

The whole point of reparations is to tilt the playing field so that it is easier to get up and out of the situation that exists today. Yet, in your infinite wisdom, you claim that would be a negative.[/quote]

There are already things in place that tilt the playing field. See previous post. If two people are qualified for the same position/loan/college admission/etc, and it is givin based on the color of someones skin, that’s a definite negative. BTW, my wisdom isn’t infinite, just really vast. [quote]

Will it ever happen, I doubt it.

However, to ask for specific examples, as if racism is something that has been made up is just incredibly stupid. I can barely believe it when I read your posts. You actually type that shit?[/quote]
There will alway be rasict individuals in the world. Nothing we can do about that. My point is that rasicm by the gov’t no longer exists, and the rare occasion where it does happen, the victim is usually justly compensated.

[kenmen]

“Somehow Asian communities don;t have that problem, come to think of it neither do the Eastern Indian (india) communities both of which are very large and growing. Both are spewing out scientists, doctors, lawyers and business owners.”

…but again, the counter argument being that Asians and Eastern Indians were not brought over to this country in chains and have not had to endure the persistent racism towards this society’s Black Americans, which has broken and demoralized many parts of the Black American community. Now, I’m just throwing this argument out there… I don’t think it can be totally dismissed.

However, I really believe that so much of what has been written in this thread is true:

1. Is the history of our treatment of Black Americans an issue to this day - Yes
2. Are personal responsibility and values an issue - Yes

Societal values count - too many young unwed single mothers in the Black American community - this will only serve to extend a cycle of poverty. There is no denying the existence of racism, but one also has to “figure out” what is right and wrong for oneself. I understand the argument(s) about not having hope. Nonetheless, if one acts self-destructively (i.e., drugs, crime, no education, etc.) progress does not occur.

[Gregus]

[quote]kenmen wrote:
“Somehow Asian communities don;t have that problem, come to think of it neither do the Eastern Indian (india) communities both of which are very large and growing. Both are spewing out scientists, doctors, lawyers and business owners.”

…but again, the counter argument being that Asians and Eastern Indians were not brought over to this country in chains and have not had to endure the persistent racism towards this society’s Black Americans, which has broken and demoralized many parts of the Black American community. Now, I’m just throwing this argument out there… I don’t think it can be totally dismissed.

However, I really believe that so much of what has been written in this thread is true:

1. Is the history of our treatment of Black Americans an issue to this day - Yes
2. Are personal responsibility and values an issue - Yes

Societal values count - too many young unwed single mothers in the Black American community - this will only serve to extend a cycle of poverty. There is no denying the existence of racism, but one also has to “figure out” what is right and wrong for oneself. I understand the argument(s) about not having hope. Nonetheless, if one acts self-destructively (i.e., drugs, crime, no education, etc.) progress does not occur.[/quote]

100% agree, well said. It’s upto the individual ultimately. It’s just a matter of will they take the excuses offered or say fuck it, I’m my own man and will do my best.

[reddog6376]

[quote]kenmen wrote:
“Somehow Asian communities don;t have that problem, come to think of it neither do the Eastern Indian (india) communities both of which are very large and growing. Both are spewing out scientists, doctors, lawyers and business owners.”

…but again, the counter argument being that Asians and Eastern Indians were not brought over to this country in chains and have not had to endure the persistent racism towards this society’s Black Americans, which has broken and demoralized many parts of the Black American community. Now, I’m just throwing this argument out there… I don’t think it can be totally dismissed.

However, I really believe that so much of what has been written in this thread is true:

1. Is the history of our treatment of Black Americans an issue to this day - Yes
2. Are personal responsibility and values an issue - Yes

Societal values count - too many young unwed single mothers in the Black American community - this will only serve to extend a cycle of poverty. There is no denying the existence of racism, but one also has to “figure out” what is right and wrong for oneself. I understand the argument(s) about not having hope. Nonetheless, if one acts self-destructively (i.e., drugs, crime, no education, etc.) progress does not occur.[/quote]

Which is what I am (less eloquently) trying to say

[Gregus]

I should also add that if any black poster is interested in being 100% honest with truth and nothing but the truth they better be able to handle the fact that Africa sold out on their own people much like Europe did with it’s population via Hitler.

With all emotion removed this would follow that the genocide against the Jews resulted in them getting their promised land after the war, so some good came out of it. Much like the great evil of slavery resulted in many Blacks now having some of the best opportunities of ANY other black population on this planet.

Soem will read into this statement and belittle me, others will see it as a good that came out of the evil. And that’s how it always goes. First the bad then good being born out of it’s ashes.