good post professor, i will ask though, as a “product” of a multiracial family who grew up in poverty, how is the way some black men were raised my problem, or how is it my responsibility to understand what “they” have “gone -through”???
the fact that you can openly admit that it is become much better in recent years and nowhere near the problem it was in your parents days shows more maturity and rational thought to this subject than most of the white liberals and black people i know.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Gregus wrote:
I think that black people in general, especially the men are much more obsessed with race then anyone else. It’s a conflict that’s within them and it’s hard to make it stop. I don’t care for the reasons why, or who’s fault it is. But that has been my experience. Most black men are insecure being black and it’s a mental hurdle that can only hold a person back.
Black men often express this more because, in general, we have to deal with more outward racism. I just experienced something recently that I don’t want to go into right now. While racism may be more subtle with black women or other ethnic groups, it isn’t rare for many black men to feel it directly. It is a hurdle, but not because it is something we just can’t move past. It is a hurdle because it is thrown in our faces randomly out of the blue. I can honestly say that things are getting amazingly better in this country as far as that is concerned. It is nothing like what my parents had to deal with and a world away from what my grandmother had to endure. Every once in a while, however, just when it is no longer on your mind and your day is going great…it pops right back up letting you know that your color (along with age and other stereotypes) are major factors to some people.
There are problems on all sides and all of us play a role in it one way or another. The only thing that truly pisses me off, is the fact that some people pretend as if racism is such a non-factor that it shouldn’t be discussed any longer and everyone should just get over it. Pushing it beneath the surface doesn’t kill it. On that note, it also doesn’t keep me from trying to reach my goals. I was raised with the knowledge that it is out there, but that I should achieve in spite of it. Everyone wasn’t raised that way.[/quote]
That’s an honorable response. I definitely feel like you expressed yourself like the real man that you are. It’s good to see that it does not drag you down. Sometimes when you argue it so passionately it can be difficult to understand where you stand on some issues personally and i was acutally saddened by thinking you may have been lost.
One thing i can tell you prof, With some of my friends (that happen to be black and not black friends, it’s a difference in my mind) i had some hurdles to overcome because there would be this tension and sometimes things would come out of my mouth with absolute 0% negative thought in my mind and they would get offended. So it took time for them and me to adjust and understand one another. For me it was to be more sensitive, and for them to understand that a stupid comment here and there made in jest due to not knowing or too much comfort too soon did not make me racist, and vice versa. Once those little hurdles were broken it’s some of my closest most loyal frienships and i value them greatly.
As my friend Jeff said, " I know alot of white people are not racist, they don’t want to be racist or looked as being racist" It took him a long time to get there, he grew up in Newark NJ, watching Roots as a child and was around an environet of thugs and ex cons. But he broke out and bonded with a person he propably never thought would be a friend.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
good post professor, i will ask though, as a “product” of a multiracial family who grew up in poverty, how is the way some black men were raised my probelm, or how is it my responsibility to understand what “they” have “gone -through”???
the fact that you can openly admit that it is become much better in recent years and nowhere near the problem it was in your parents days shows more maturity and rational thought to this subject than most of the white liberals and black people i know. [/quote]
It is your responsibility (and mine) because this country isn’t where it is currently because of a bunch of individuals all stepping on each other for their own success. That seems to be where we are headed currently, however, with this large focus on big business at the expense of attention to the poor. While many cultures have been destroyed and uprooted in the formation of this country, it would be nowhere without nearly every race on the planet building it. If you want to know why some black people feel they are discriminated against, it requires you to quit acting like their point of view doesn’t matter. I had access to attaining a record deal in college, however, I was under the age of 18 at the time. My parents wouldn’t allow it because they felt that what would set me apart in society would inevitably be my education, regardless of the status afforded a musician or an athlete. In a way, I agree with them more now than then.
We live in a world that, judging by many responses in this thread, believes that anyone poor doesn’t work hard…or they are all waiting on government handouts, especially if they are black and poor. They believe the people in New Orleans were in that situation all because of their own doing. People who think this are extremely foolish and ignore the influence society as a whole can have as far as keeping people from advancement.
Yes, it does take effort and drive from the individual to attain any amount of success. However, true equality requires the assassination of blatant racism that helps prevent that elevation. It requires the understanding that while your parents may not have owned any slaves, the damage done to an entire race of people in the years after slavery to the present all contributed to where we are today.
That was why I posted the info on the Tuskeegee Experiment. People want to pretend as if “it” was so long ago. They want to make believe that blacks just hold onto racism for no reason as if we are thinking about slavery every minute of the day. This is far from truth. I doubt most youth today have much of a concept of slavery at all unless they research it themselves. Their downfall is the cycle of being born into households that don’t know how to teach drive and determination…who don’t know how to teach good ethics or morals. They then have children (out of marriage and while still teenagers) and repeat the cycle.
To solve that problem requires acknowledgement and some attention into fixing it at home. Anyone who believes otherwise is kidding themselves if they think a problem willl disappear after so many years of its creation.
The author is misguieded to think being black was a factor at all.
Poverty played the only role here with respect to these people’s actions (or inactions).
FYI - WorldNetDaily is no different than the NY Post, Washington Times or on the other side of the fence The Nation.
Where an article is published makes a difference.
I take most NY Times articles with a grain of salt.
If an article from The Nation was linked here that claimed that something was solely Bushes fault I would point to the source and tell you it is suspect.
The huge difference I see is the right wing folks on this board constantly uses suspect sources while the left wing folks do not.
Prof. X said:
“There are problems on all sides and all of us play a role in it one way or another. The only thing that truly pisses me off, is the fact that some people pretend as if racism is such a non-factor that it shouldn’t be discussed any longer and everyone should just get over it.”
My thoughts exactly. I’m not sure why the racists on this board, and they are plentiful, just don’t come out and say it. Look, I’ve been around people who are outwardly racist…slurs flow easily from their mouths. Ok, they are disgusting people. BUT…I think it’s even worse to be one of these two faced, be nice to a minority publicly but when they get alone are droppin the N word every 5 seconds. Sort of like what the cuban guy was saying…his co-workers were racist because they didn’t know his wife was black, but if they had, would’ve shut up.
There is also among the two faced group, a certian conservative sect that loves to pretend that racism just flat out does not exist…especially in the south, where many of these bible-thumping, conservative, America-FuckYEAH types live.
“We live in a world that, judging by many responses in this thread, believes that anyone poor doesn’t work hard…or they are all waiting on government handouts, especially if they are black and poor. They believe the people in New Orleans were in that situation all because of their own doing. People who think this are extremely foolish and ignore the influence society as a whole can have as far as keeping people from advancement.”
Again, right on the point. How many times have we heard people talk about poor people being lazy and the all time favorite, “they should pull themselves up by their boot straps” garbage. Of course, this is usually said by a conservative type who grew up middle class, but, since he didn’t live in the mansion he lives in today, feels that he was, in fact, poor as a child.
A few months back people were discussing Morgan Spurlock’s show where he and his wife lived on min. wadge jobs for 30 days. Of course, the responses gradually went from “interesting show” to “oh, bullshit! it’s not that hard to make it on 5.15 and hour. That’s all hollywood bs and spurlock is a liberal” bla bla bla bla bla. Nice attitude to have.
And as prof said, a mentality to blame the victims, as in N.O. After all, they deserved it because they were poor, lazy, and black, right?
[quote]IL Cazzo wrote:
There is also among the two faced group, a certian conservative sect that loves to pretend that racism just flat out does not exist…especially in the south, where many of these bible-thumping, conservative, America-FuckYEAH types live.[/quote]
I love how some folks get on here and think they know what people in the south are thinking - how they love to call people from the south bigoted, and racist - without even taking the time to get to know them. I think that is a form of racism and bigotry in and of itself.
But it’s okay to have this kind of bullshit prejudice towards another group if they are ignorant dumb white trash from the south. They probably deserve it right? I mean they’re from the south. They are conservative. They go to church. They are guilty.
You are a fucking hypocrite - and just as much a part of the problem X is talking about as anyone.
typical response. i have had similar conversations with my wife and her family. everything is somebody else’s fault, and that somebody is whitey. ha-ha.
you think white western Europeans invented slavery??? you think your ancestors (if indeed your ancestors were slaves, there is good probability, but not 100%)are the only people who have been enslaved???
once again i will DARE any black person on this forum or anywhere else to try to argue that they could not have accomplished the same things i have because of race. i went to a shitty public school, both my parents though hard working were illiterate, and got into a small community college, paid my way through college working 2-3 part time jobs(washing dishes, busing tables, waiting tables, bar tending, landscaping, loading trucks at ups, delivering pizza), drove a car that cost 400 dollars, than had no back seats, and no reverse gear, got a nursing degree, and because i am willing to work overtime night shifts i earn a respectable 6 figure income.
i work with TOO many black people who are doing the same thing as i, some with more advantages than me, to believe that if somebody wants to better themselves that they cannot do it. noooo, they are not going to have mommy and daddy pay there way through college and have a nice fat juicy job in a big corporation or insurance company etc. cuz there either there dad works there or knows somebody that works there, like a lot of the pampered white boys i went to school with, but hey, those options were not available to me either.
black people make too many excuses for themselves and tolerate the trash with-en there own race far too much. i have trash in my family too, but i do not make excuses for them and invite them over for thanksgiving dinner. my wife’s immediate family are hard working middle class people but she has cousins who are stone cold criminals and convicted felons who are still allowed to show up a bbq. wtf? i have some real losers on my side of the family but we do not tolerate them. see the difference?
for some reason western Europeans got the upper hand on things in recent history (last 1000 years or so) if you want explanations, get Jared diamonds “guns germs and steel”. but do you think if things had turned out differently and another race/culture had the upper hand they would not be doing the same thing that western Europeans have done???
tell you what, lets take it down to a smaller scale with a real world example.
the small southern town i grew up in had basically one industry, the local union paper mill. if you got a job there you had it made. needless to say growing up the plant was almost 100% white, and if you wanted a job there you had to know somebody. now my father is white, but poor white trash form another part of the state, and my mom is a Cuban immigrant. so needless to say, even though i could pass for white, i was not getting a job there. in my twenties, a big lawsuit filed by local blacks sued for discrimination, and won, and they were forced for several years to hire and promote mostly black people. now, the plant is mostly black. my father in law is one of those blacks hired after the law suit and is been there 20 years and is a high ranking supervisor.
now guess what? you still need to know somebody if you want a job there, and since it is mostly black, who do you think is getting discriminated against now?
turn about fair play? perhaps, but if something is wrong like discrimination and racism, it is wrong period, no matter what color the face that is doing it.
discuss lol
il cazo, i agree with a lot of what you said. however, i think what is confusing me is to what some would consider making it. i make well over six figures now, and support my wife, my kids, and my parents who are disabled and have no retirement/pensions to speak of. but like i said, am i wearing a suit and pushing a pen behind a desk in a big corp. with a secretary giving me coffee and blow jobs all day? fuck no.
i work 48-60 hours a week midnight shifts wiping ass, and cleaning vomit, doing the dirty work for people who do not want to care for there own family. as an intensive care nurse, i also do a lot of very technical and complicated things, but the basics are still my responsibility too. i say ANY-FUCKING-BODY can get a nursing degree, and go to work like me and care for an HIV and TB and hepatitis infested scumbag who is actively and heavily bleeding from his ass and is violent and combative because he/she is withdrawing from crack/meth/booze/whatever, IF they want to. many would not do what i do regardless of the salary. it is not glamorous , but it is not the providence of the privileged and it is not rocket science.
“But it’s okay to have this kind of bullshit prejudice towards another group if they are ignorant dumb white trash from the south. They probably deserve it right? I mean they’re from the south. They are conservative. They go to church. They are guilty.”
No, that would be bigotry. Yes, I am a bigot v. 99% of whites in the south. You are one of them. I think most of the south, the white south I mean, is a disgrace. How is that different? Well, southern hillbillies choose to live like they do, while minorities were born with their skin color.
You come on here with your macho bs, who cares? I. DON’T. LIKE. MOST. SOUTHERNERS. There, now you and your townsfolk can call me whatever you like. Doesn’t hide the fact that you are a racist.
Love,
IL Cazzo
[quote]IL Cazzo wrote:
“But it’s okay to have this kind of bullshit prejudice towards another group if they are ignorant dumb white trash from the south. They probably deserve it right? I mean they’re from the south. They are conservative. They go to church. They are guilty.”
No, that would be bigotry. Yes, I am a bigot v. 99% of whites in the south. You are one of them. I think most of the south, the white south I mean, is a disgrace. How is that different? Well, southern hillbillies choose to live like they do, while minorities were born with their skin color.
You come on here with your macho bs, who cares? I. DON’T. LIKE. MOST. SOUTHERNERS. There, now you and your townsfolk can call me whatever you like. Doesn’t hide the fact that you are a racist.
Love,
IL Cazzo
[/quote]
I gotta hand it to you - at least you are honest about your racism.
Tell me - had a white southerner wrote the exact same post that you just did and used ‘black’ every where you have the word ‘southerner’, or ‘south’, or ‘hillbillie’, what would your reaction be?
You have more than proved my assertation that you are as much a part of the problem as anyone. And you have also proved my charge that you are a fucking hypocrite.
People like you sicken me. Not because you don’t like me, but because you are so bigoted that there is no point in even trying to engage in a dialogue with such hate filled pieces of shit. Period.
[quote]IL Cazzo wrote:
a bunch of drivel
[/quote]
I’ve been all over the country, and I’ve seen prejudice everywhere I lived. FAR AND AWAY, the worst was in the southern Illinois/Indianna area, with New Jersey being right there with them.
Sigh, don’t worry, prejudice, racism and bigotry are alive and well in Canada too. It’s damned hard to stamp out…
There is indeed plenty of biogtry to go around. How many times have I read on this forum about the “stupid Christians.” There are two people inparticular who make it their duty it insult people because of their faith.
Definition of bigotry: “One who is intolerant of others.”
Matters not whether the person is black, white, from the south, a Christian, Jewish or whatever. If you are intolerant of that person you are a bigot!
i candid discussions with black people in person, i almost instantly rub them the wrong way. why? a few reasons. mostly because i am not afraid to say what the hell i want. and when somebody decides to get angry and go “all-black” and start acting a fool and such, when most of the other white people start stumbling over their words and getting intimidated and nervous i tell that person to sit his silly ass down and behave before things get really ugly.
see, i don’t automatically respect somebodies blackness. i grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood, most of the people i knew were black, most of my female relationships have been with black women.
i don’t give black people a pass because they are black. many black people think being black gives them a licence to be racist, get angry and go ballistic when somebody does not see things there way, and generally misbehave. i do not cut any slack in that regard.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
i candid discussions with black people in person, i almost instantly rub them the wrong way. why? a few reasons. mostley becaus i am not afraid to say what the hell i want. and when somebody decides to get angry and go “all-black” and start acting a fool and such, when most of the other white people start stumbling over their words and getting intimidated and nervouse i tell that person to sit his silly ass down and behaive before things get really ugly.
see, i dont automatically respect somebodies blackness. i grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood, most of the people i knew were black, most of my female relationships have been with black women.
i dont give black people a pass because they are black. many black people think being black gives them a licence to be racist, get angry and go ballistic when somebody does not see things there way, and generally misbehaive. i do not cut any slack in that regard. [/quote]
You are a jackass. You sound like some angry warden or as if all black people are less than you and under your control. Your greatest fear, as evidenced by your incredibly well put together post, is a black man in a superior position than you in charge of your income. You tell black people to behave? What the fuck are you, a racist elementary teacher who can’t spell? You have rubbed me the wrong way and it isn’t because of your lack of fear to say what you want. It is simply because of the pure ignorance that you typed into this thread.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You are a jackass. You sound like some angry warden or as if all black people are less than you and under your control. Your greatest fear, as evidenced by your incredibly well put together post, is a black man in a superior position than you in charge of your income. You tell black people to behave? What the fuck are you, a racist elementary teacher who can’t spell? You have rubbed me the wrong way and it isn’t because of your lack of fear to say what you want. It is simply because of the pure ignorance that you typed into this thread.[/quote]
No - I think he said that he told ill mannered, rude, and combative people to sit down and shut up. They just happened to be black.
What you just wrote is the thing that have a lot of whites confused and scared. The first thing you see is the color of the skin. How is there supposed to be a discussion - an honest one - when you are doing the very thing that upsets you about many non-blacks?
Where is you outrage over what the racist Il Cazzo wrote? Your silence over his admitted hatred of white southerners is really quite loud.
Is it only a race problem when blacks are involved? Do southern whites have have this prejudice coming to them?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You are a jackass. You sound like some angry warden or as if all black people are less than you and under your control. Your greatest fear, as evidenced by your incredibly well put together post, is a black man in a superior position than you in charge of your income. You tell black people to behave? What the fuck are you, a racist elementary teacher who can’t spell? You have rubbed me the wrong way and it isn’t because of your lack of fear to say what you want. It is simply because of the pure ignorance that you typed into this thread.
No - I think he said that he told ill mannered, rude, and combative people to sit down and shut up. They just happened to be black.
What you just wrote is the thing that have a lot of whites confused and scared. The first thing you see is the color of the skin. How is there supposed to be a discussion - an honest one - when you are doing the very thing that upsets you about many non-blacks?
Where is you outrage over what the racist Il Cazzo wrote? Your silence over his admitted hatred of white southerners is really quite loud.
Is it only a race problem when blacks are involved? Do southern whites have have this prejudice coming to them?
[/quote]
You can’t possibly be serious. This man didn’t write anything like, “I tell rude people to shut up and they just happen to be black”. What are you smoking? You apologize for him but get mad because I don’t stand up and scream when someone writes, “I. DON’T. LIKE. MOST. SOUTHERNERS.”? He didn’t even say “all” southerners so why don’t you ask him why he hates the ones that he does?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You can’t possibly be serious. This man didn’t write anything like, “I tell rude people to shut up and they just happen to be black”. What are you smoking? You apologize for him but get mad because I don’t stand up and scream when someone writes, “I. DON’T. LIKE. MOST. SOUTHERNERS.”? He didn’t even say “all” southerners so why don’t you ask him why he hates the ones that he does? [/quote]
No but what he did say was i don’t give black people a pass because they are black. Maybe I read more into it than you did. But based on your reply to him: You sound like some angry warden or as if all black people are less than you and under your control… - you sound as if you are offended that he didn’t see tblack the first rattle out of the box.
So if I say I hate most blacks, you’d be cool with that?
I think you’ve just shown your true colors, Prof. And it is sad to know that you accept racism against some while decrying it against you. That is extremely hypocritical.
Gents,
I don’t know if anyone paid attention to my previous posts and I don’t know if anyone will care to digest this one either.
However, in this post I will attempt to clarify my intentions in posting those little bits of demographic information. As my wife often tells me that I assume that people will see what I mean, rather than have me lay out the intent plainly.
Prejudice exists. It will always exist. It ebbs and flows with prosperity. One of the lessons of the industrialized North in pre-Revolution, and antebellum USA is that prosperity and opportunity crush prejudice of any kind. Stuyvesant, the Dutch governor of New Amsterdam, tried to prevent “dirty Jews” from “infesting” this new colony, and the reply from the Dutch East India Company? Don’t dare to deny anyone admittance on prejudice, all those who intend to trade are welcome.
That is a pivotal lesson of the founding of our nation. There should be no barriers to trade in any fashion. In this way all inequity is destroyed except that created by effort, talent, and vision. Did they believe in slave trade? Sure, but as some of you may know the word slave comes from Slav, and from antiquity and well into the 19th century Europeans were among the most highly traded slaves. More that 2 million slaves of Euro descent were traded in North Africa and the Middle East. (Read about the Barbary Pirates for a very short excerpt)
Which of those countries pay reparations in any fashion? None. Which European country paid reparations to known descendants of black slaves? None(That I know of) Why do I bring up reparations? Because every gov’t program that takes race into account, whether it be Native American, African, Hispanic, Filipino, Asian, or Middle Eastern is a form of racist reparation. Any form of wealth redistribution is tyranny. Tyranny will always be resisted, whether it be revolution or by quiet resistance.(For more detail on the quiet resistance study the Russian black market.)
Leave the cultural reformation to the culture itself. Some African-American churches that I worked with when I lived in OK were concerned about the poor black children growing up in North Tulsa. It was/is a rough neighborhood. Not on the scale of Compton or Inglewood, but a sorry place to grow up nonetheless. We put together a summer camping program through the churches and my father and I (and some volunteers from the church) took time to help these kids out a little bit each summer.
As I pointed out in my previous posts…
The gov’t cannot do this job. You cannot expect anyone not to resent his neighbor when the gov’t takes from him and gives to his neighbor. People are generous and kind-hearted, sometimes to a fault, provided they see a problem that scales beyond human understanding. (e.g. Katrina) If the problem is not beyond the pale… resentment is sure to be had. Throughout history cultures have overcome by feeding themselves. Sometimes doing so well that they breed even more disdain(see Jews again).
To conclude, what I am saying is that to have anyone tell a group of people that they cannot succeed without the gov’t is insulting and racist on its face. What we can do best to help their plight (speaking particularly of African-Americans) is volunteer to help everyone in our community and fight the concept of legal inequity everywhere that it exists.
For my own part, I contribute to my father’s church (though I am an atheist), various tribal funds, and Big Brothers. As well as several youth camps that take inner city kids out to experience teamwork and adventure in a natural environment. I have never been so hurt as when I heard one kid say “I never saw so many stars before in my life.” or a group of kids that had never seen fish outside of a super market.
Fight the problem, not some shoddy social edifice that has been erected to please those in power.