Okay. Well put. Like you said, JMO could learn some diplomacy and he does have valid points.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
redgladiator wrote:
This is not what I’m asking. You are saying somewhere in my post is a myth. What I said I stand by, if you disagree with me, let me know which part of what I wrote you disagree with.
if it makes you feel any better, forget I said the word “myth”.
This is what I disagree witht: “you don’t need extra carbs (cornflakes) at this time.”
Why shouldn’t he need extra carbs at the time? If anything, eating carbs then will minimize overnight catabolism by giving his body more energy before a 8-10 hour fast.
eliminating carbs before bed is not only unnecessary, it’s outright detrimental to his goals.[/quote]
Ok so bare in mind I recommended milk and yougurt which has carbs, I did not say to eliminate carbs. I said you don’t NEED EXTRA carbs (cornflakes) at this time. This is to say it is not necessary to add additional carbs.
[quote]actionjeff wrote:
You have good reasons at heart JMO, but might want to learn some diplomacy if you really think it’s worth the effort arguing here, unless you just love to fight with people[/quote]
Hey leave JMO alone, we like to argue 
hmm…for some reason my post (responding to Trenchant) didn’t go through. I’ll just write a brief summary:
as I see it, the idea that you shouldn’t eat carbs before bed is to stop people from downing a pint of Ben & Jerry’s before bed, then rationalizing it away by saying “I’m bulking.”
as far as I know, there is no physiological reason why carbs would be stored as bodyfat in the evening than at any other time (bearing in mind that carbs are almost never stored as bodyfat anyways, but that’s something i wont go into right now)
as far as my lack of diplomacy is concerned…I honestly just like arguing
seriously though, I’d rather someone gave me correct information with a little attitude, than feed me a bunch of bullshit with a smile on their face.
[quote]redgladiator wrote:
Ok so bare in mind I recommended milk and yougurt which has carbs, I did not say to eliminate carbs. I said you don’t NEED EXTRA carbs (cornflakes) at this time. This is to say it is not necessary to add additional carbs.[/quote]
not to be a dick, or beat a dead horse any more (although, admittedly, I love arguing things into the ground) but the words NEED and EXTRA are entirely subjective.
what I mean is this: we don’t know how many calories this kid needs in order to grow. He COULD need the cornflakes, or he could NOT need them (say, if he is already eating 500 cal over maintenance)
hell, depending on how active he is, he could need MORE cornflakes (or whatever) to meet his energy needs. we just don’t know.
this is why a HATE it when people post up a thread asking us to rate their diet, and they don’t list any actual NUMBERS.
so what are we supposed to say? the fact is, with out some actual figures to work with, we can’t make any recommendations (unless their diet is absolutly atrocious. e.g. an all candy and soda diet or something.)
so basically, you can’t say whether he needs them or not, and neither can I, because we don’t know.
so I say to the OP this: plug the numbers in, eat your diet, and assess your weight. if it goes up (but not too much) you’re doing well. if not add/subtract calories as necessary until the scale does what you want.
I’m around 190lbs, I think I have big bones or something because I look like I’m 170lbs or so. I have relatively big thighs and am a little flabby around the stomach but otherwise, I am not truly skinny fat either. I am gaining weight and am definitely making decent strength increases.
I think CT said to eat some carbs before bed for the euphoric, sluggish feeling they can give you sometime, and this could help fall asleep when dieting.
I would say avoid carbohydrate before sleep because it will blunt any surge of GH you’d rather receive during your sleeping hours. As blood sugar is low for so long during the night, if you don’t eat carbs, GH will be released during this semi fast.
If carbs are eaten, and liver and muscle glyogen are full, there aren’t many productive places for those broken down carbs to go. And since you aren’t depleting much glycogen while you sleep, double whammy. my 2 cents
[quote]toocul4u wrote:
I think CT said to eat some carbs before bed for the euphoric, sluggish feeling they can give you sometime, and this could help fall asleep when dieting.
I would say avoid carbohydrate before sleep because it will blunt any surge of GH you’d rather receive during your sleeping hours. As blood sugar is low for so long during the night, if you don’t eat carbs, GH will be released during this semi fast.
If carbs are eaten, and liver and muscle glyogen are full, there aren’t many productive places for those broken down carbs to go. And since you aren’t depleting much glycogen while you sleep, double whammy. my 2 cents[/quote]
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transient increases in natural hormone production (such as the one that occurs during sleep) mean little in terms of changing body comp.
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even if you eat carbs before bed, you’ll still get an increase in GH, it’s just delayed a few hours
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even if muscle and liver glycogen are full, ingested carbohydrates are almost never stored directly as fat, instead they are simply burned off for energy (remember, your body burns fuel 24 hours/day, even at rest)
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
toocul4u wrote:
I think CT said to eat some carbs before bed for the euphoric, sluggish feeling they can give you sometime, and this could help fall asleep when dieting.
I would say avoid carbohydrate before sleep because it will blunt any surge of GH you’d rather receive during your sleeping hours. As blood sugar is low for so long during the night, if you don’t eat carbs, GH will be released during this semi fast.
If carbs are eaten, and liver and muscle glyogen are full, there aren’t many productive places for those broken down carbs to go. And since you aren’t depleting much glycogen while you sleep, double whammy. my 2 cents
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transient increases in natural hormone production (such as the one that occurs during sleep) mean little in terms of changing body comp.
-
even if you eat carbs before bed, you’ll still get an increase in GH, it’s just delayed a few hours
-
even if muscle and liver glycogen are full, ingested carbohydrates are almost never stored directly as fat, instead they are simply burned off for energy (remember, your body burns fuel 24 hours/day, even at rest)[/quote]
The master molecular switch for fat storage in apidocytes is insulin. If you are in a well fed state (such as eating a bowl of corn flakes after 3 cups of rice…) insulin secretion will lead to glucose–>acetyl-coA–>fatty acids–>fat fuck.
Also, why would you eat a diet which is deliberately used to make people into fat asses?
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
toocul4u wrote:
I think CT said to eat some carbs before bed for the euphoric, sluggish feeling they can give you sometime, and this could help fall asleep when dieting.
I would say avoid carbohydrate before sleep because it will blunt any surge of GH you’d rather receive during your sleeping hours. As blood sugar is low for so long during the night, if you don’t eat carbs, GH will be released during this semi fast.
If carbs are eaten, and liver and muscle glyogen are full, there aren’t many productive places for those broken down carbs to go. And since you aren’t depleting much glycogen while you sleep, double whammy. my 2 cents
-
transient increases in natural hormone production (such as the one that occurs during sleep) mean little in terms of changing body comp.
-
even if you eat carbs before bed, you’ll still get an increase in GH, it’s just delayed a few hours
-
even if muscle and liver glycogen are full, ingested carbohydrates are almost never stored directly as fat, instead they are simply burned off for energy (remember, your body burns fuel 24 hours/day, even at rest)[/quote]
1.) a third of your day’s hormone production is very important, and I wouldn’t disregard it
2.) It is a large delay, and shouldn’t just be disregarded
3.) they are not simply burned for energy. your body doesn’t burn fuel quickly when you are sleeping and sedentary. your body isn’t requiring all the carbs and blood glucose, so yes, with full glycogen stores they are stored in the body’s storage site, adipose.
[quote]elih8er wrote:
The master molecular switch for fat storage in apidocytes is insulin. If you are in a well fed state (such as eating a bowl of corn flakes after 3 cups of rice…) insulin secretion will lead to glucose–>acetyl-coA–>fatty acids–>fat fuck.[/quote]
it appears your model of fat storage is a little out of date. dietary fat itself affects fat call metabolism with no change in insulin via acylation stimulation protein.
eating carbs “makes you fat” by REDUCING the amount of dietary fat burned for energy (because the carbs are being used preferentially), NOT because carbs themselves are stored as fat.
[quote]toocul4u wrote:
1.) a third of your day’s hormone production is very important, and I wouldn’t disregard it[/quote]
ok then, if natural hormone production is that important, why not just go without any food. after all, total fasting produces GH better than just about anything.
idea for new training program: starvation for HYOOOGE GAINZ!!
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Well you should consider that skeletal muscle is less sensitive to insulin during the evening hours/night. Therefore, more blood glucose gets uptaken by the liver (an insulin-independant organ) or converted to adipose tissue.
Now whilst I appreciate that you might have been referring to ‘conditioned’ individuals (read those of us who exercise regularly, including some cardio), there are still a lot of ‘fit’ people who do not tolerate carbs very well (read endomorphs, generally speaking) and tend to store them as fat. For these people especially, it is my opinion that intaking even moderate carbohydrates, before bed, or larger amounts spread throughout the evening/night, will lead to fat gain, partly due to the general lack of activity during this time, and partly due to the insulin factor mentioned above.
But hey, I could be wrong and I’m sorry if I insulted you with my ‘medicine’ jibe. I just recalled something you had written on an adrenal fatigue thread and somehow inferred that you study medicine. No offence intended.
BBB[/quote]
the idea that glucose is converted to triglycerides under normal circumstances in humans is false. it almost never happens.
furthermore, the notion that insulin sensitivity is higher in the morning is also wrong. this is due to high levels of free fatty acids in the bloodstream. High FFAs = poor insulin sensativity.
of course, training effects IS to a great degree, so it’s always a good idea to eat the majority of ones carbs in the ~5-6 hours post workout. But eating carbs (especially the slow-digesting kind) can help to preserve muscle during the overnight fast, AND improve morning insulin sensativity by keeping blood FFA levels lower.
that being said, at night I eat whatever will make me hit my macro targets for the day. this could include carbs or not, depending on how my other meals looked.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Well you should consider that skeletal muscle is less sensitive to insulin during the evening hours/night. Therefore, more blood glucose gets uptaken by the liver (an insulin-independant organ) or converted to adipose tissue.
Now whilst I appreciate that you might have been referring to ‘conditioned’ individuals (read those of us who exercise regularly, including some cardio), there are still a lot of ‘fit’ people who do not tolerate carbs very well (read endomorphs, generally speaking) and tend to store them as fat. For these people especially, it is my opinion that intaking even moderate carbohydrates, before bed, or larger amounts spread throughout the evening/night, will lead to fat gain, partly due to the general lack of activity during this time, and partly due to the insulin factor mentioned above.
But hey, I could be wrong and I’m sorry if I insulted you with my ‘medicine’ jibe. I just recalled something you had written on an adrenal fatigue thread and somehow inferred that you study medicine. No offence intended.
BBB
the idea that glucose is converted to triglycerides under normal circumstances in humans is false. it almost never happens.
furthermore, the notion that insulin sensitivity is higher in the morning is also wrong. this is due to high levels of free fatty acids in the bloodstream. High FFAs = poor insulin sensativity.
of course, training effects IS to a great degree, so it’s always a good idea to eat the majority of ones carbs in the ~5-6 hours post workout. But eating carbs (especially the slow-digesting kind) can help to preserve muscle during the overnight fast, AND improve morning insulin sensativity by keeping blood FFA levels lower.
that being said, at night I eat whatever will make me hit my macro targets for the day. this could include carbs or not, depending on how my other meals looked.[/quote]
Article?–I am talking graduate level biochem courses and they would disagree.
[quote]elih8er wrote:
Article?–I am talking graduate level biochem courses and they would disagree. [/quote]
Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.Click here to read Links
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.
Acheson KJ, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Institute of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Lausanne, Switzerland.
Also this:
“De novo lipogenesis is not the pathway of of first resort in response to an intake of surplus carbohydrate…Furthermore, the high-fat content of the modern Western diet may suppress The conversion of carbohydrate to fat.”
p. 252 Functional Metabolism: Regulation and Adaptation
by Kenneth B. Storey
Also this:
"The capacity for glycogen storage in man in larger than generally believed, and (2) Fat synthesis from CHO will not exceed fat oxidation after one high-carbohydrate meal, even if it is uncommonly large.
When a single high-carbohydrate meal is consumed, dietary CHO merely has the effect of reducing the rate of fat oxidation. These findings challenge the common perception that conversion of CHO to fat is an important pathway for the retention of dietary energy and for the accumulation of body fat."
From: Metabolism. 1982 Dec;31(12):1234-40. Related Articles, Links
Glycogen synthesis versus lipogenesis after a 500 gram carbohydrate meal in man.
Acheson KJ, Flatt JP, Jequier E.
Do you know these articles, or just posting them to falsely help your cause?
“When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate- oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis.”
This was taken directly from the paper you posted…wow
[quote]toocul4u wrote:
Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.Click here to read Links
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.
Acheson KJ, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Institute of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Lausanne, Switzerland.
Do you know these articles, or just posting them to falsely help your cause?
“When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate- oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis.”
This was taken directly from the paper you posted…wow[/quote]
yes, but when are glycogen stores saturated? the answer is almost never. full glycogen stores occur at carb intakes of approximatly 15g/kg, or over 1,300g of carbohydrates.
the fact is, DNL occurs under basically two conditions: if fat intake is extremely low (less than ~15% of calories) or MASSIVE carb overfeeding (on the order of 900g/day) for multiple days