[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
So don’t you fucking tell me how it is.
[/quote]
How do you know if my mom isnt on antidepressants? How do you know my best friend isnt on antidepressants? How do you know I’m, gasp, not on antidepressants?
And just because you suffered from depression doesnt necessarily mean you know more about it than I do.
Why were you affected by it for 5-6 years? The first day you were depressed you should have realized and just flicked the depression switch off. Its just that easy, right?
Do you think everyone can just pack up and leave their life to start a brand new, perfectly happy, stable life? No. Not everyone can. For plenty of reasons, monetary being a perfect example.
Yes, I do realize what not eating does to the brain. It wont function. And being anorexic, plenty of other things wont function, such as your thyroid and pituitary gland. Your pituitary gland takes care of your hormones. You know what horomones do, right? They affect your mind, too.
Shrinks are doctors, big guy. A nutritionist would probably help, but they wont be able to get to the root of the problem. A psychologist will have the most success out of any doctor to help someone suffering from anorexia.
And as others have said, you’re just so perfect that you’ve never made a mistake so thays why you’re alive. I know I’ve made a mistake, I guess I should be dead. And, no one should care for that matter, either.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Then, later, I was a sedentary desk jockey, which surely has cardiovascular implications. Yikes, the choices I made! So, see, here too I obviously deserve to die.
Even now, though I know better, I usually don’t eat enough vegetables. Yes, indeed, again, I willfully make choices and deserve to die, so that the planet will be better off.
[/quote]
You’re taking it a bit far with deserving to die because the planet will be better off, but these two conditions you mentioned means I won’t bemoan your heart attack and call it tragic. Will you be missed by some people? Sure, but it would be extremely hard for me to feel pity if you die from a heart attack when you willfully and knowfully don’t exercise and don’t eat vegetables.
I can’t put the same logic to the model, though, since I don’t know her situation.
[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
You are really very ignorant regarding mental illness. I bet you think schizophrenics should just ‘become’ sane too.
No, that stuff should be treated. Its a severe physical problem with the brain.
Its mis-wired. Not only that but there are also chemical imbalances which cause them do do abnormal shit. Its beyond psychological. It needs physical treatment.
Now explain to me how: “I’m going to starve myself to be thin” A mental illness?
Maybe smokers have a mental illness too? They just CAN’T STOP. Its too damn addictive.
What about drunks? Maybe they have a mental disease too?
What about people who become addicted to drugs? Do they have a mental illness?
No.
They are just weak.
Either by being stupid and getting physically addicted to the drug in the first place (I’ll just try it a few times then I’m giving up the cocaine), or by not giving it up and continuing to keep using the shit knowing full well the damage that its causing them and not doing a damn thing about it (weak character).
They did it to THEMSELVES. I have no sympathy for such cases. If you smoke then get sick and get emphysema… its your own damn fault.
I don’t care if its the “cool” thing to do. I don’t care if your entire family smokes. I don’t care how addictive it is. You Make the choice the put the damn cigarette into your mouth, knowing full well the consequences.
Same thing with the anorexics. I have no sympathy for people who mutilate themselves that way. Who would disrespect their own bodies and endangering their lives by being so damn thin. They are not victims of anything. They are the abusers.
What they need is a mental kick in the ass (a physical one would break them) and some proper food.
And maybe some chemical help from the doctor to get their body and mind running normal again.[/quote]
Really? You don’t think someone who is 50 lbs and looks in the mirror and sees a fat person is mentally ill? It is not just ‘weakness’ as you put it. There is a huge congitive dissonance between what they see and reality as a result of psyhological malfunctioning and disorder.
Even when they are starving and objectively know they’re way underweight the deepest part of them is convinced they’re fat. It’s way more than wanting to look good in a bathing suit and going overboard.
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
How do you know if my mom isnt on antidepressants? How do you know my best friend isnt on antidepressants? How do you know I’m, gasp, not on antidepressants?
And just because you suffered from depression doesnt necessarily mean you know more about it than I do.[/quote]
Then tell me more. I’d like to hear a different point of view. Tell me about your experience, or someone you know very well.
[quote]
Why were you affected by it for 5-6 years? The first day you were depressed you should have realized and just flicked the depression switch off. Its just that easy, right?[/quote]
Actually it is just that easy. All you need is a strong enough wakeup call. And for the minority of people: chemical help.
It was my own doing. But it was also my own doing to get rid of it as best as I can.
[quote]
Do you think everyone can just pack up and leave their life to start a brand new, perfectly happy, stable life? No. Not everyone can. For plenty of reasons, monetary being a perfect example.[/quote]
You can always get another job. How did you get the first one? Or are you that worthless that no employer would want to hire you?
And in the case of anorexics, they either change their lifestyle or die. I don’t think it gets any worse than that.
In the case of the young lady in the story… if she quit her career, or found a better job elsewhere… she would still be enjoying life today. But instead, she couldn’t. For monetary reasons… right?
I don’t think its worth her life. Do you?
Ok. Now that you said that. Do you still think that a psychiatric help will do anything? Do you think the disease needs psychological treatment?
I think an anorexic needs a doctor and a trip to a short term care facility.
Nice. You got me there! Ok. Now its YOUR turn at the semantics game.
Ok.
Go.
Your turn.
I really don’t think the treatment will go on long enough for it to be effective. Effective therapy takes years.Anorexia takes years off.
(Here is a picture below to show you what I am talking about. Just so that we are on the same page.)
[quote]
And as others have said, you’re just so perfect that you’ve never made a mistake so thays why you’re alive. I know I’ve made a mistake, I guess I should be dead. And, no one should care for that matter, either.[/quote]
You have been lucky. I have been lucky on a few ocassions too. I cold have really fucked my life up. But I learned from the mistakes and here I am.
edit: For those too thick to read between the lines. When I said learned from my mistakes, that does not mean ALL mistakes ever possible. I learned from the SPECIFIC mistakes that I made and corrected those SPECIFIC mistakes.
Not future mistakes. And that does not mean that mistakes will never happen again. Just those specific ones will never happen again.
Again; NOT EVERY SINGLE MISTAKE POSSIBLE.
I can’t believe some people need me to explain this. rrjc5488 for example.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Really? You don’t think someone who is 50 lbs and looks in the mirror and sees a fat person is mentally ill? It is not just ‘weakness’ as you put it. There is a huge congitive dissonance between what they see and reality as a result of psyhological malfunctioning and disorder.
Even when they are starving and objectively know they’re way underweight the deepest part of them is convinced they’re fat. It’s way more than wanting to look good in a bathing suit and going overboard. [/quote]
It has nothing to do with deserving to die or not. People usually develop eating disorders as teenagers before they are fully-developed people. Most are very impressionable girls who see innapropriate role-models and have it ingrained in them that this is how they are supposed to look. Anorexia can just start with a simple diet. There’s usually some propensity-it usually strikes over-achivers and perfectionists.
There are a of control issues to it. It often affects those who feel there lives are out-of control otherwise. Perhaps a particularly turbulent time. Compounded with a desire to be thin fueled by exposure to dangerously skinny women from a very young age, the result can be a full-blown eating disorder. Whatever kind of judgments you want to make about someone’s moral fiber, our culture is a root cause of anorexia.
The prevalence of eating disorders is much lower in cultures that glorify a healthy body image and accept more than one body type as ideal. Unhealthy standards are glorified by many segments of our culture, and this contributes to eating disorders whether you feel any pity for those who go on to develop them or not.
Just like it is a good thing to promote healthy eating try to address the epidemic of obesity in America even though everyone is ultimately responsible for what they put into their own mouth, discouraging unhealthy cultural ideals such as those perpetuated from some segments of the fashion industry is also a good thing.
What they need is to eat. To restore the body chemistry back to normal. They don’t need a shrink. They need a doctor, and a nutritionist.
[/quote]
That is really false. Almost everyone who has gone on to recover from anorexia and develop a healty relationship with food has done so through extensive counseling and therapy. It’s necessary to determine why they’re starving themselves and why they are so afraid of fat and to work on the massive congitive disfunctioning that causes them to see themselves as fat. Just having a nutritionist tell them to eat without working on these issues does nothing. They know what they SHOULD be doing to be healthy.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
It has nothing to do with deserving to die or not. People usually develop eating disorders as teenagers before they are fully-developed people. Most are very impressionable girls who see innapropriate role-models and have it ingrained in them that this is how they are supposed to look.[/quote]
That’s true. Its probably a lack of maturity. These kids aren’t fully developed and are prone to things like peer pressure. And when they become adults BAM! The shit has stuck to them for life.
But I still believe that its is possible to get rid of. Free will… remember?
I guess that is also true. And you do see alot of shit on TV. Dangerously skinny runway models, actresses, SLIMMING CAMERAS making them appear thinner than they actually are.
Well now you have changed my mind… a little bit.
[quote]
Just like it is a good thing to promote healthy eating try to address the epidemic of obesity in America even though everyone is ultimately responsible for what they put into their own mouth, discouraging unhealthy cultural ideals such as those perpetuated from some segments of the fashion industry is also a good thing.[/quote]
[quote]vroom wrote:
Are you seriously going to condemn 99% of the planet for not being perfect? Grow up and develop some compassion for the state of humanity in the world. Maybe, just sometimes, lend a hand or some sympathy to others that aren’t as fortunate as you seem to be.[/quote]
There is no perfection. And I only feel compassion for those who have suffered injustice. The victims. Not the abusers.
[quote]
You aren’t weak yourself if you show compassion to others or forgive them for their faults and weaknesses.[/quote]
Its always good to help those less fortunate. But only those deserving of such help. Effort counts for alot.
Also admitting that there is a problem and actively seeking help and applying to chatge for the better… people who do things like this really do deserve the best effort you can give them.
[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
Then tell me more. I’d like to hear a different point of view. Tell me about your experience, or someone you know very well.
[/quote]
I’m not going to tell you more. I dont need to. If you dont think I’m ‘qualified’ enough to have a view on the matter, then fine. I dont care. But, IMO, I do. I know people who have been depressed, who have been anorexic, as well as other problems, all of which go to psychiatrists, not physicians.
Its not just that easy. If it were that easy, you would have changed your thinking/actions in 5-6 minutes and stopped depression right then and there, not let yourself be affected by it for 5-6 years.
I never said she couldnt quit for monetary reasons, I’m saying it could have been a possibility. And I meant it being a possibility for others who cannot just pack up and start a brand new life.
No, I dont. I’m the one having sympathy about the fact that she died. No one should have to die from this shit.
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
Yes, I do realize what not eating does to the brain. It wont function. And being anorexic, plenty of other things wont function, such as your thyroid and pituitary gland. Your pituitary gland takes care of your hormones. You know what horomones do, right? They affect your mind, too.
bruceavengeorge:
Ok. Now that you said that. Do you still think that a psychiatric help will do anything? Do you think the disease needs psychological treatment?
I think an anorexic needs a doctor and a trip to a short term care facility.
[/quote]
Yes, I do think the disease needs to be treated by a psychiatrist. I have a friend from high school who was anorexic junior into senior year. After she was coming over it, she came into health class and discussed her situation and the dangers of the disease. She also said her psychiatrist was the one who had the greatest impact on changing her bad habits. You’re still not understanding that anorexia is a psychological disorder. An anorexic sees his/herself as fat, not skinny. Thats the problem, no matter what, they’re fat in their minds and they just keep losing weight. Its PSYCHOLOGICAL.
Effective therapy takes years? Thats a blanket statement, wouldn’t you think? Effective treatment can take years, shit it could take an entire lifetime, but it can be done in shorter. And so you’re saying they shouldnt even bother with therapy because it’ll take too long, and they should just let it get to a point where they die?
The girl in my school had shown improvement in less than three months from starting to see a psychiatrist. She’s continued to see him after, because it does take a long time, but they can help in shorter times than “years.”
[quote]
And as others have said, you’re just so perfect that you’ve never made a mistake so thays why you’re alive. I know I’ve made a mistake, I guess I should be dead. And, no one should care for that matter, either.
You have been lucky. I have been lucky on a few ocassions too. I cold have really fucked my life up. But I learned from the mistakes and here I am.[/quote]
So you’ll never make a mistake again? Get the fuck out of here. Everyone makes mistakes, people get second, third, fourth, and plenty more chances. Its part of life. I’m going to make more mistakes in my life. I’ll probably make one, probably more than one, by the time I go to bed tonight. I guess I should give my T-Nation goodbyes now, then, right? You know, since I’ll be dead before tommorow.
I was younger and less informed when I made those decisions. Do young and dumb people “deserve” to die?
I’m not sedentary now, and haven’t been years, so do I still “deserve” to suffer, or have a heart attack, for an earlier period of chasing my career to the exclusion of other things?
So much for the concept that life is precious around these parts!
–
Bruce,
You seriously need to expand your thinking a little bit. Your viewpoint is extreme… such that anyone who makes a mistake or chooses something other than perfection deserves to die.
How many big macs can I eat, if any, before I should be terminated for the sake of humanity? Can I try a cigarette? What if I want to drink a beer? What if I were to have some type of brain issue where I saw myself as fat and wasn’t, so I starved myself?
You seem to have zero understanding of life, how we live it, the choices we have to make. Until you can develop some compassion for what it means to be human and have frailties you will have very little to offer the world.
However, that doesn’t mean you “deserve” to die because you haven’t made the right choices, yet.
[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
It has nothing to do with deserving to die or not. People usually develop eating disorders as teenagers before they are fully-developed people. Most are very impressionable girls who see innapropriate role-models and have it ingrained in them that this is how they are supposed to look.
That’s true. Its probably a lack of maturity. These kids aren’t fully developed and are prone to things like peer pressure. And when they become adults BAM! The shit has stuck to them for life.
But I still believe that its is possible to get rid of. Free will… remember?
Compounded with a desire to be thin fueled by exposure to dangerously skinny women from a very young age, the result can be a full-blown eating disorder. Whatever kind of judgments you want to make about someone’s moral fiber, our culture is a root cause of anorexia.
I guess that is also true. And you do see alot of shit on TV. Dangerously skinny runway models, actresses, SLIMMING CAMERAS making them appear thinner than they actually are.
The prevalence of eating disorders is much lower in cultures that glorify a healthy body image and accept more than one body type as ideal. Unhealthy standards are glorified by many segments of our culture, and this contributes to eating disorders whether you feel any pity for those who go on to develop them or not.
Well now you have changed my mind… a little bit.
Just like it is a good thing to promote healthy eating try to address the epidemic of obesity in America even though everyone is ultimately responsible for what they put into their own mouth, discouraging unhealthy cultural ideals such as those perpetuated from some segments of the fashion industry is also a good thing.
You are right that it is necessary to have a fierce will to recover. That is what separates those who get healthy from those who don’t. But statistics bare out that therapy is very important for recovery. Desire to get better alone is not enough. The prognosis for someone with full-blown anorexia is not great even with sophisticated psychiatric treatment. But some people that receive sophisticated therapies recover. The vast, vast majority who do nothing or simply see a nutritionist die. Look it up.
[quote]vroom wrote:
You seriously need to expand your thinking a little bit. Your viewpoint is extreme… such that anyone who makes a mistake or chooses something other than perfection deserves to die.[/quote]
Never meant perfection. But if you ignore the basics: like taking minimal care of your own body and health and eating once in a while… you are fucking moron in that case and you deserve whatever you get.
[quote]
How many big macs can I eat, if any, before I should be terminated for the sake of humanity? Can I try a cigarette? What if I want to drink a beer? What if I were to have some type of brain issue where I saw myself as fat and wasn’t, so I starved myself?[/quote]
If you take any of those to an extreme, don’t be surprised when it finally catches up to you.
And if you had the brain tissue problem… it would be ignorant not to have that looked at when it acts up.
[quote]
You seem to have zero understanding of life, how we live it, the choices we have to make.[/quote]
I have very little understanding of your opinion about life. Just because you see things one way does not mean that its the right way or the only way.
I can kind of see why you would think some of this… but its hard since I’m not walking in your shoes. And you’re not walking in mine either.
[quote]
However, that doesn’t mean you “deserve” to die because you haven’t made the right choices, yet.[/quote]
But if you make ignorant choices endangering your life… you do. Especially when given so much time to think and rethink the decision. You don’t become morbidly fat or severely skinny overnight. And you have plenty of time to rethink everyday decisions and do a 180 in the normal direction or at least put some damn good effort trying. (aka away from the extreme).
You are right that it is necessary to have a fierce will to recover. That is what separates those who get healthy from those who don’t. But statistics bare out that therapy is very important for recovery. Desire to get better alone is not enough. The prognosis for someone with full-blown anorexia is not great even with sophisticated psychiatric treatment. But some people that receive sophisticated therapies recovery. The vast, vast majority who do nothing or simply see a nutritionist die. Look it up.[/quote]
[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
But if you make ignorant choices endangering your life… you do. [/quote]
Look, you can be angry for the fact that people take chances when they have responsibilities - and they are taking risks for more than just themselves.
However, at the same time, every single one of us has weaknesses, flaws, areas that we fall down or otherwise seem incapable of making the right choice.
Not understanding this basic nature of humanity is what I’m railing against. Of course it was stupid of the model to starve herself! It’s still very sad.
Sometimes things sneak up on you. You are trying to make huge gray areas a black and white matter. You’ll find that sometimes you slip down a path and end up somewhere in a subtle way while your attention was focused somewhere else.
It happens. Priorities change. Sacrifices are made. Things are done that appear to have no immediate consequence, like stopping to pick up fast food too often, maybe because your team and company are relying on certain progress and you are the man that can make it happen.
It’s wonderful to be responsible and do your utmost to take care of yourself, but people that get drawn into other viewpoints and lifestyles don’t deserve your disdain. All I’m suggesting is to maintain some simple human compassion - whether or not people have helped dig their own grave isn’t the issue.
You know, some of the people here are getting all high and mighty about personal responsibility, but I wonder if their reaction is just being irresponsible on another level. Your reactions are tantamount to saying, “What, she died? That’s her fault, not mine.”
But it is your fault. Like it or not, you’re part of her society by being part of one that has put anorexics on pedestals. So is it entirely your fault? Of course not. But recognizing that this is a problem beyond the scope of a single person is the first step to solving it.
Wow, I leave the thread for a few days and look what happens to it. There have been some good, sensible posts, and a bunch of cold-hearted ones. Just because anorexia may stem from a weak will does not mean it deserves no sympathy or help. Weak individuals can become stronger; usually they need help to do it, and I hope everyone realises that.
And as for blame, sure, the fashion industry cannot be the sole instigator, but it certainly doesn’t help matters that they require super-thin models to work for them, and that it is these models that get plastered all over the media.
Lots of people are at fault here, including the anorexic girls themselves, but as responsible fathers, brothers, husbands and boyfriends, we should do our bit to help (being a man, I’ll just speak for the males here).
