MLB Season 2011

[scj119]

[quote]Cuban32 wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]Cuban32 wrote:
Ok, i just got in a big argument at lunch with coworkers, I believe with every fiber of my being that Bautista is juicing, he is juicing, who agrees who disagrees and give me reasons. This crap about how a hitting coach helped change his swing which results in 50 homeruns seasons is bull crap. Right now he is on a faster pace that Bonds was in his 73 homerun season, ofcourse he wont come close, but, think about it.[/quote]

I am surprised you would say that on this site. In my layman’s understanding of AAS, the main purpose of taking them is to increase muscle mass. Given that Bautista is not growing any larger or gaining any weight, I have a hard time attributing his home run power to increased muscle.

Ever since steroids people want to act like no one ever became a home run hitter over the course of one offseason before steroids came along. It’s happened plenty of times.

PS - his power surge actually started coming at the end of the 2009 season, when he had 8hr in September. So I guess he injected a gram of test the night of August 31st? lol[/quote]

I was once believed the same thing as you, steroids dont make you hit the ball, seems logical.

But, i will admit i have done a couple of cycles of AAS before in college when the rules were more relaxed at the college level. It makes you faster, makes you react quicker, for no damn reason. I went from being an ameature to a super ameature, i never considered it cheating until i saw what it can do, also the fact that I would pitch 6-7 innings and in 3 days be ready for some more and was not even icing aggressively. You are really going to suggests steroids dont influence a hitters power numbers, you know how many every days guys in the bigs still muscle one out to the warning track even though they didnt get all of it? Put those guys on some juice and all those balls go over.[/quote]

I didn’t say steroids can’t help you hit a ball further - I say that steroids help you build muscle, and being stronger helps you hit a ball further. The fact he isn’t bigger is why I think steroids aren’t the culprit.

There are probably (definitely) illegal supplements out there that help with explosive force moreso than musclebuliding though, and they just aren’t a part of what my simple mind classifies as anabolic steroids.

[scj119]

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Posey dove toward the plate after the ball hit his glove. 19 out of 20 major leaguers would have barreled into him.

I think being allowed to hit a defensive catcher is a stupid rule. It was not a dirty play.[/quote]

Exactly.

A play at the plate in a tie game in extra innings? Almost every player in the league would have done the same.[/quote]

Why are you ignoring the fact that the whole plate was exposed?

MOST major leaguers would hook slide around the catcher to GUARENTEE they would score. Not HOPE that the catcher loses the ball in the collision.

Do you know how easily the runner could have slid around posey? Instead he lowered his shoulder and went out of his way to hit Posey. Posey WASNT blocking the plate. If the catcher isnt blocking the plate then the runner necessarily went out of his way to make contact. The runners goal is to get to home plate and if it wasnt blocked, what’s the reason to knock the catcher over?
[/quote]

I don’t know how you can ignore the context - Posey was diving towards the plate in an effort to block it, Cousins was preparing for it to be blocked. Yeah he probably could have avoided it with a good slide, but I don’t agree that “most” major leaguers would.

I hope you and DB are this agitated about every similar plate collision and not just ones involving the Giants. What about the Carlos Santana play last year when the guy could have easily slid under his extended leg?[/quote]

What agitates me is hearing someone who never played the game start dispensing judgments about the unwritten rules of the game, rules you’d have to have played to understand. Posey was diving toward the plate because he wasn’t in front of it. He didn’t dive into contact; Cousins sought it out and created it and it happened in front of the plate. Posey was NOT impeding his route to the plate, period. That makes it a dirty play.

Regarding double plays rajraj: the rule states that as long as you can reach out to touch the bag it’s a legal play. But players do not barrel through a guy if he’s on the bag getting ready to receive the ball, they don’t come in with high cleats, they don’t roll over or put unnecessary body english into the slide, especially when the fielder’s back is turned and all of this happens at a time when the fielder already has the ball. Players police themselves and they know that there are certain plays that they should not make even if they aren’t technically illegal ones. It’s not illegal to break up a double play, but players know there is a wrong and a right way to do it, just like there is a right and wrong time to plow through the catcher. What Cousins did was the wrong play and people who played the game can understand this subtle difference. So stop with the whole “legality” aspect of the play entirely. Of course it’s a legal play, just like throwing in the general vicinity of a player’s head or sliding with your spikes up.[/quote]

LMAO I wasn’t aware that I said I’ve never played the game. It would be weird for me to say, given that I did play all through elementary school and high school. And yes, I was catcher for a while.

He has to make a decision early whether he is going to barrel into the catcher or slide. Like, a few steps down the line. He thought Posey was going to block the plate, so he made his decisions a few steps out. He had to start lowering his shoulder before he realized Posey would be late to the plate. At that point if he tries to avoid Posey he is out no matter what, so he seeks contact (he did not have any time at all to react to the dropped ball, even if he saw it at all).

One other thing I noticed (and always look for in sports arguments) is that the only people arguing it’s dirty are Giants fans, and every impartial fan who doesn’t give a rats ass is arguing the opposite. If it was a dirty play, some non-Giants fans would think so too.[/quote]

The collision didn’t happen on the line as if Posey was blocking the plate. He didn’t dive into the runner’s path either. The runner ran at Posey, NOT the plate (which was to his right, NOT right in front of him). I don’t know how else that can be defined. The runner made a play on Posey, NOT the plate. Whatever he anticipated, it clearly included him going out of his way and the plate’s way to initiate contact with a player who was not impeding his path to the plate.

The comments about not playing were directed at rajraj. And Bonez isn’t a Giants fan at all, but he played the game at a high level and he still plays now.[/quote]

Fair enough. In my opinion, he decided to make a bulldozer move towards the plate expecting Posey to be in his way; but, once Posey was late getting there, he had no option but to aim towards him because diving shoulder first straight towards the bag would have resulted in an out (as Posey ran into his midsection before he hit home), and he was already committed to the motion and couldn’t slide.

Reasonable minds may disagree, I suppose.

[BONEZ217]

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Posey dove toward the plate after the ball hit his glove. 19 out of 20 major leaguers would have barreled into him.

I think being allowed to hit a defensive catcher is a stupid rule. It was not a dirty play.[/quote]

Exactly.

A play at the plate in a tie game in extra innings? Almost every player in the league would have done the same.[/quote]

Why are you ignoring the fact that the whole plate was exposed?

MOST major leaguers would hook slide around the catcher to GUARENTEE they would score. Not HOPE that the catcher loses the ball in the collision.

Do you know how easily the runner could have slid around posey? Instead he lowered his shoulder and went out of his way to hit Posey. Posey WASNT blocking the plate. If the catcher isnt blocking the plate then the runner necessarily went out of his way to make contact. The runners goal is to get to home plate and if it wasnt blocked, what’s the reason to knock the catcher over?
[/quote]

I don’t know how you can ignore the context - Posey was diving towards the plate in an effort to block it, Cousins was preparing for it to be blocked. Yeah he probably could have avoided it with a good slide, but I don’t agree that “most” major leaguers would.

I hope you and DB are this agitated about every similar plate collision and not just ones involving the Giants. What about the Carlos Santana play last year when the guy could have easily slid under his extended leg?[/quote]

Im a yankee fan. And I dont remember the position of every single catcher in every single play. If you want to post a video, go for it. Im not saying every collision is dirty.

[BONEZ217]

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Do you know how easily the runner could have slid around posey?
[/quote]

just to play devils advocate here… Injuries still happen when trying to avoid a tag. Just ask Josh Hamilton.[/quote]

That’s not playing devils advocate. What you said is irrelvant. Injury is irrelevant to a runners attempt to score.

[gregron]

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Injury is irrelevant to a runners attempt to score. [/quote]

then why does it matter if Posey was injured? If injury is irrelevant then whats the big deal?

if Posey wouldnt have broken his leg on the play then we wouldnt still be talking about this, so injury is definitely NOT irrelevant.

[BONEZ217]

[quote]Cuban32 wrote:
You really think he figured it out at age 30-31? That a hitting coach figured out a secret. Come on dude.

[/quote]

Kevin Long adjusted Granderson’s hand position in his stance. He’s now hitting homers at a similar clip to bautista. The adjustment was made in August of last season. Look at grandersons numbers from then until now. About 35 homers in 90 games.

Is he doing it too? Hitting coaches can fix things. There are multiple examples of late bloomers. And there is also no evidence to suggest that Bautista will continue this pace for 8 more years, like Bonds was able to with steroids. 30 years old is the prime of a player’s career.

I know for a fact you dont watch even half of the blue jays games. You dont see the pitches he’s hitting out. I dont watch many either, but I see some of his at bats on mlb extra innings. He bangs every single mistake pitch. AND on top of that, Roger’s center is not a difficult place to hit homers.

And finally. Jose Baustista, right fielder for the toronto fucking blue jays, doesnt have some special hook up for a new undectable drug. There is too much money to be made if a chemist comes up with an effective drug. He would virtually be forced to sell it to multiple people unless he’s just a huge Jose Bautista fan.

People’s perception of what a power hitter is has be skewed because of the last decade. It is completely normal for 1 or 2 guys to bop 45-50 homers in a season. His batting avg is very high but that will come down. I predict he hits 318 for the season. Ryan Howard hit 50 a few years ago. What’s the big deal? Bautista is just one guy have an insane year and a half. Let him do this for 6 more years and we’ll talk.

[BONEZ217]

[quote]scj119 wrote:

I am surprised you would say that on this site. In my layman’s understanding of AAS, the main purpose of taking them is to increase muscle mass. Given that Bautista is not growing any larger or gaining any weight, I have a hard time attributing his home run power to increased muscle.

[/quote]

In baseball, the excess muscle mass will only benefit lunking ogres. Excess mass, in general, is not conducive for success on a baseball field.

The real benefit comes in the recovery benefits. 160 games with some of them being afternoon games. By the 120th gameof the season the guys who used steroids were going strong while regulars were beginning to wear down. Its the same exact reason why amphetemines were so popular in Hank Aarons era. Steroids just did the job better than amphetemines.

I still play baseball. And obviously I know the effects of steroids. Yes, I guess I cheat but its just an amateur league with no money involved. And Im nowhere near the best player in the league, so I dont really care about the morality.

[BONEZ217]

[quote]scj119 wrote:

I didn’t say steroids can’t help you hit a ball further - I say that steroids help you build muscle, and being stronger helps you hit a ball further. The fact he isn’t bigger is why I think steroids aren’t the culprit.

There are probably (definitely) illegal supplements out there that help with explosive force moreso than musclebuliding though, and they just aren’t a part of what my simple mind classifies as anabolic steroids.[/quote]

You need to post less about drugs.

Your first sentence is devoid of all logic. Thanks for clarifying that the ACTUAL bottle of oil is not physically hitting the ball, but in fact the player is doing the action. Thanks for that. Re-read what you wrote. It’s self contradictory. Congressmen walk straighter lines than that.

And looking at someones size is irrelevant. I can design a cycle along with a diet that will add no more than 5 pounds of bodyweight but I can guarantee a 50lb jump in bench press in 6 weeks. I can do that in about 60 seconds.

Seriously. You dont know nearly enough about this stuff to have a valid opinion. And that’s not an insult. Knowledge of biochemistry is not common education. The problem is that too many people have thoguhts about this stuff based solely what they hear on tv

[BONEZ217]

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Injury is irrelevant to a runners attempt to score. [/quote]

then why does it matter if Posey was injured? If injury is irrelevant then whats the big deal?

if Posey wouldnt have broken his leg on the play then we wouldnt still be talking about this, so injury is definitely NOT irrelevant.[/quote]

Poor logic man.

The injury is the reason this is a discussion but it has nothing to do with whether a play is dirty or not.

If you steal a car and dont get caught technically you are NOT a felon (criminal). But you definitely have committed a crime.

The action can be looked at in isolation. Judge the action at the point of impact. Do not judge the impact while posey is writhing around. What Im saying is that there are dirty plays that never get attention because no one got hurt. That doesnt mean they never happened.

[gregron]

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Injury is irrelevant to a runners attempt to score. [/quote]

then why does it matter if Posey was injured? If injury is irrelevant then whats the big deal?

if Posey wouldnt have broken his leg on the play then we wouldnt still be talking about this, so injury is definitely NOT irrelevant.[/quote]

The injury is the reason this is a discussion but it has nothing to do with whether a play is dirty or not.[/quote]

I never said anything about it being a dirty play or not being a dirty play?

I was addressing your point of “injury is irrelevant to a runners attempt to score” statement.

[BONEZ217]

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Posey dove toward the plate after the ball hit his glove. 19 out of 20 major leaguers would have barreled into him.

I think being allowed to hit a defensive catcher is a stupid rule. It was not a dirty play.[/quote]

Exactly.

A play at the plate in a tie game in extra innings? Almost every player in the league would have done the same.[/quote]

Why are you ignoring the fact that the whole plate was exposed?

MOST major leaguers would hook slide around the catcher to GUARENTEE they would score. Not HOPE that the catcher loses the ball in the collision.

Do you know how easily the runner could have slid around posey? Instead he lowered his shoulder and went out of his way to hit Posey. Posey WASNT blocking the plate. If the catcher isnt blocking the plate then the runner necessarily went out of his way to make contact. The runners goal is to get to home plate and if it wasnt blocked, what’s the reason to knock the catcher over?
[/quote]

I don’t know how you can ignore the context - Posey was diving towards the plate in an effort to block it, Cousins was preparing for it to be blocked. Yeah he probably could have avoided it with a good slide, but I don’t agree that “most” major leaguers would.

I hope you and DB are this agitated about every similar plate collision and not just ones involving the Giants. What about the Carlos Santana play last year when the guy could have easily slid under his extended leg?[/quote]

What agitates me is hearing someone who never played the game start dispensing judgments about the unwritten rules of the game, rules you’d have to have played to understand. Posey was diving toward the plate because he wasn’t in front of it. He didn’t dive into contact; Cousins sought it out and created it and it happened in front of the plate. Posey was NOT impeding his route to the plate, period. That makes it a dirty play.

Regarding double plays rajraj: the rule states that as long as you can reach out to touch the bag it’s a legal play. But players do not barrel through a guy if he’s on the bag getting ready to receive the ball, they don’t come in with high cleats, they don’t roll over or put unnecessary body english into the slide, especially when the fielder’s back is turned and all of this happens at a time when the fielder already has the ball. Players police themselves and they know that there are certain plays that they should not make even if they aren’t technically illegal ones. It’s not illegal to break up a double play, but players know there is a wrong and a right way to do it, just like there is a right and wrong time to plow through the catcher. What Cousins did was the wrong play and people who played the game can understand this subtle difference. So stop with the whole “legality” aspect of the play entirely. Of course it’s a legal play, just like throwing in the general vicinity of a player’s head or sliding with your spikes up.[/quote]

LMAO I wasn’t aware that I said I’ve never played the game. It would be weird for me to say, given that I did play all through elementary school and high school. And yes, I was catcher for a while.

He has to make a decision early whether he is going to barrel into the catcher or slide. Like, a few steps down the line. He thought Posey was going to block the plate, so he made his decisions a few steps out. He had to start lowering his shoulder before he realized Posey would be late to the plate. At that point if he tries to avoid Posey he is out no matter what, so he seeks contact (he did not have any time at all to react to the dropped ball, even if he saw it at all).

One other thing I noticed (and always look for in sports arguments) is that the only people arguing it’s dirty are Giants fans, and every impartial fan who doesn’t give a rats ass is arguing the opposite. If it was a dirty play, some non-Giants fans would think so too.[/quote]

The collision didn’t happen on the line as if Posey was blocking the plate. He didn’t dive into the runner’s path either. The runner ran at Posey, NOT the plate (which was to his right, NOT right in front of him). I don’t know how else that can be defined. The runner made a play on Posey, NOT the plate. Whatever he anticipated, it clearly included him going out of his way and the plate’s way to initiate contact with a player who was not impeding his path to the plate.

The comments about not playing were directed at rajraj. And Bonez isn’t a Giants fan at all, but he played the game at a high level and he still plays now.[/quote]

Fair enough. In my opinion, he decided to make a bulldozer move towards the plate expecting Posey to be in his way; but, once Posey was late getting there, he had no option but to aim towards him because diving shoulder first straight towards the bag would have resulted in an out (as Posey ran into his midsection before he hit home), and he was already committed to the motion and couldn’t slide.

Reasonable minds may disagree, I suppose.[/quote]

Do you watch a lot of baseball? By a lot I mean 90% of the games you have access to on cable. You dont seem to comprehend how often players hook slide to score. Out of all the times there is a play or potential play at the plate, a collision is the huge minority of the results. I dont need statistics on this. I watch a lot of baseball. Guys only barrel a catcher over when it’s absolutely necessary. For good reason too, there is a huge injury risk for the runner. It just so happens that the runner in this case is some no name journeyman that doesnt give a shit if he hurts himself because he probably doesnt have a career ahead of him anyway.

You make it sound like collisions at the plate are an inevitable part of baseball. In reality, collisions are a rare occurance. There are about 90-100 games played per week. If there was 1 collision per week I’d be shocked.

[BONEZ217]

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Injury is irrelevant to a runners attempt to score. [/quote]

then why does it matter if Posey was injured? If injury is irrelevant then whats the big deal?

if Posey wouldnt have broken his leg on the play then we wouldnt still be talking about this, so injury is definitely NOT irrelevant.[/quote]

The injury is the reason this is a discussion but it has nothing to do with whether a play is dirty or not.[/quote]

I never said anything about it being a dirty play or not being a dirty play?

I was addressing your point of “injury is irrelevant to a runners attempt to score” statement.

[/quote]

Too many posts in a row, I lost track of what was being said.

But that’s fine. What I said still applies. Take the action itself (not the result) in isolation. You said that injuries occur when trying to avoid a tag. I dont see how that’s relevant to whether it was necessary or even adviseable for the Marlins player to collide with Posey. I definitely do not think the guy was trying to hurt Posey. I dont see anything malicious in his attempt to score. Malicious and dirty are not the same thing.

[BONEZ217]

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Injury is irrelevant to a runners attempt to score. [/quote]

then why does it matter if Posey was injured? If injury is irrelevant then whats the big deal?

if Posey wouldnt have broken his leg on the play then we wouldnt still be talking about this, so injury is definitely NOT irrelevant.[/quote]

The injury is the reason this is a discussion but it has nothing to do with whether a play is dirty or not.[/quote]

I never said anything about it being a dirty play or not being a dirty play?

I was addressing your point of “injury is irrelevant to a runners attempt to score” statement.

[/quote]

Too many posts in a row, I lost track of what was being said.

But that’s fine. What I said still applies. Take the action itself (not the result) in isolation. You said that injuries occur when trying to avoid a tag. I dont see how that’s relevant to whether it was necessary or even adviseable for the Marlins player to collide with Posey. I definitely do not think the guy was trying to hurt Posey. I dont see anything malicious in his attempt to score. Malicious and dirty are not the same thing.

[gregron]

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Too many posts in a row, I lost track of what was being said.

But that’s fine. What I said still applies. Take the action itself (not the result) in isolation. You said that injuries occur when trying to avoid a tag. I dont see how that’s relevant to whether it was necessary or even adviseable for the Marlins player to collide with Posey. I definitely do not think the guy was trying to hurt Posey. I dont see anything malicious in his attempt to score. Malicious and dirty are not the same thing. [/quote]

no problem. I see what you’re saying.

I dont think taking out a catcher at home plate is a dirty play. completely blocking the plate, semi blocking the plate, missing the ball and turning to cover the plate/make the tag (which is what Posey did) is the same play to me and I dont think its dirty.

If the catcher was standing there and didnt have a chance at making the play and got laid out it would be dirty but I dont think the cousins/posey play was dirty.

If anyone think that was a dirty play then they should be appalled at every take out slide at second base. I’ve seen takeout slides where the runner goes 3 or 4 feet out of the way to slide at the short stop/second baseman.

[therajraj]

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Posey dove toward the plate after the ball hit his glove. 19 out of 20 major leaguers would have barreled into him.

I think being allowed to hit a defensive catcher is a stupid rule. It was not a dirty play.[/quote]

Exactly.

A play at the plate in a tie game in extra innings? Almost every player in the league would have done the same.[/quote]

Why are you ignoring the fact that the whole plate was exposed?

MOST major leaguers would hook slide around the catcher to GUARENTEE they would score. Not HOPE that the catcher loses the ball in the collision.

Do you know how easily the runner could have slid around posey? Instead he lowered his shoulder and went out of his way to hit Posey. Posey WASNT blocking the plate. If the catcher isnt blocking the plate then the runner necessarily went out of his way to make contact. The runners goal is to get to home plate and if it wasnt blocked, what’s the reason to knock the catcher over?
[/quote]

I don’t know how you can ignore the context - Posey was diving towards the plate in an effort to block it, Cousins was preparing for it to be blocked. Yeah he probably could have avoided it with a good slide, but I don’t agree that “most” major leaguers would.

I hope you and DB are this agitated about every similar plate collision and not just ones involving the Giants. What about the Carlos Santana play last year when the guy could have easily slid under his extended leg?[/quote]

What agitates me is hearing someone who never played the game start dispensing judgments about the unwritten rules of the game, rules you’d have to have played to understand. Posey was diving toward the plate because he wasn’t in front of it. He didn’t dive into contact; Cousins sought it out and created it and it happened in front of the plate. Posey was NOT impeding his route to the plate, period. That makes it a dirty play.

Regarding double plays rajraj: the rule states that as long as you can reach out to touch the bag it’s a legal play. But players do not barrel through a guy if he’s on the bag getting ready to receive the ball, they don’t come in with high cleats, they don’t roll over or put unnecessary body english into the slide, especially when the fielder’s back is turned and all of this happens at a time when the fielder already has the ball. Players police themselves and they know that there are certain plays that they should not make even if they aren’t technically illegal ones. It’s not illegal to break up a double play, but players know there is a wrong and a right way to do it, just like there is a right and wrong time to plow through the catcher. What Cousins did was the wrong play and people who played the game can understand this subtle difference. So stop with the whole “legality” aspect of the play entirely. Of course it’s a legal play, just like throwing in the general vicinity of a player’s head or sliding with your spikes up.[/quote]

LMAO I wasn’t aware that I said I’ve never played the game. It would be weird for me to say, given that I did play all through elementary school and high school. And yes, I was catcher for a while.

He has to make a decision early whether he is going to barrel into the catcher or slide. Like, a few steps down the line. He thought Posey was going to block the plate, so he made his decisions a few steps out. He had to start lowering his shoulder before he realized Posey would be late to the plate. At that point if he tries to avoid Posey he is out no matter what, so he seeks contact (he did not have any time at all to react to the dropped ball, even if he saw it at all).

One other thing I noticed (and always look for in sports arguments) is that the only people arguing it’s dirty are Giants fans, and every impartial fan who doesn’t give a rats ass is arguing the opposite. If it was a dirty play, some non-Giants fans would think so too.[/quote]

The collision didn’t happen on the line as if Posey was blocking the plate. He didn’t dive into the runner’s path either. The runner ran at Posey, NOT the plate (which was to his right, NOT right in front of him). I don’t know how else that can be defined. The runner made a play on Posey, NOT the plate. Whatever he anticipated, it clearly included him going out of his way and the plate’s way to initiate contact with a player who was not impeding his path to the plate.

The comments about not playing were directed at rajraj. And Bonez isn’t a Giants fan at all, but he played the game at a high level and he still plays now.[/quote]

Fair enough. In my opinion, he decided to make a bulldozer move towards the plate expecting Posey to be in his way; but, once Posey was late getting there, he had no option but to aim towards him because diving shoulder first straight towards the bag would have resulted in an out (as Posey ran into his midsection before he hit home), and he was already committed to the motion and couldn’t slide.

Reasonable minds may disagree, I suppose.[/quote]

Do you watch a lot of baseball? By a lot I mean 90% of the games you have access to on cable. You dont seem to comprehend how often players hook slide to score. Out of all the times there is a play or potential play at the plate, a collision is the huge minority of the results. I dont need statistics on this. I watch a lot of baseball. Guys only barrel a catcher over when it’s absolutely necessary. For good reason too, there is a huge injury risk for the runner. It just so happens that the runner in this case is some no name journeyman that doesnt give a shit if he hurts himself because he probably doesnt have a career ahead of him anyway.

You make it sound like collisions at the plate are an inevitable part of baseball. In reality, collisions are a rare occurance. There are about 90-100 games played per week. If there was 1 collision per week I’d be shocked. [/quote]

Are you sure about that? Perhaps they just don’t get much media attention unless it happens to star player and there’s an injury.

There have been 2 in the last week. Did you hear about them? I’m guessing no since they weren’t star players or Yankees.

[therajraj]

Scratch that. There have been 3 plate collisions in the last week. Have you heard of any of them?

[DBCooper]

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Posey dove toward the plate after the ball hit his glove. 19 out of 20 major leaguers would have barreled into him.

I think being allowed to hit a defensive catcher is a stupid rule. It was not a dirty play.[/quote]

Exactly.

A play at the plate in a tie game in extra innings? Almost every player in the league would have done the same.[/quote]

Why are you ignoring the fact that the whole plate was exposed?

MOST major leaguers would hook slide around the catcher to GUARENTEE they would score. Not HOPE that the catcher loses the ball in the collision.

Do you know how easily the runner could have slid around posey? Instead he lowered his shoulder and went out of his way to hit Posey. Posey WASNT blocking the plate. If the catcher isnt blocking the plate then the runner necessarily went out of his way to make contact. The runners goal is to get to home plate and if it wasnt blocked, what’s the reason to knock the catcher over?
[/quote]

I don’t know how you can ignore the context - Posey was diving towards the plate in an effort to block it, Cousins was preparing for it to be blocked. Yeah he probably could have avoided it with a good slide, but I don’t agree that “most” major leaguers would.

I hope you and DB are this agitated about every similar plate collision and not just ones involving the Giants. What about the Carlos Santana play last year when the guy could have easily slid under his extended leg?[/quote]

What agitates me is hearing someone who never played the game start dispensing judgments about the unwritten rules of the game, rules you’d have to have played to understand. Posey was diving toward the plate because he wasn’t in front of it. He didn’t dive into contact; Cousins sought it out and created it and it happened in front of the plate. Posey was NOT impeding his route to the plate, period. That makes it a dirty play.

Regarding double plays rajraj: the rule states that as long as you can reach out to touch the bag it’s a legal play. But players do not barrel through a guy if he’s on the bag getting ready to receive the ball, they don’t come in with high cleats, they don’t roll over or put unnecessary body english into the slide, especially when the fielder’s back is turned and all of this happens at a time when the fielder already has the ball. Players police themselves and they know that there are certain plays that they should not make even if they aren’t technically illegal ones. It’s not illegal to break up a double play, but players know there is a wrong and a right way to do it, just like there is a right and wrong time to plow through the catcher. What Cousins did was the wrong play and people who played the game can understand this subtle difference. So stop with the whole “legality” aspect of the play entirely. Of course it’s a legal play, just like throwing in the general vicinity of a player’s head or sliding with your spikes up.[/quote]

LMAO I wasn’t aware that I said I’ve never played the game. It would be weird for me to say, given that I did play all through elementary school and high school. And yes, I was catcher for a while.

He has to make a decision early whether he is going to barrel into the catcher or slide. Like, a few steps down the line. He thought Posey was going to block the plate, so he made his decisions a few steps out. He had to start lowering his shoulder before he realized Posey would be late to the plate. At that point if he tries to avoid Posey he is out no matter what, so he seeks contact (he did not have any time at all to react to the dropped ball, even if he saw it at all).

One other thing I noticed (and always look for in sports arguments) is that the only people arguing it’s dirty are Giants fans, and every impartial fan who doesn’t give a rats ass is arguing the opposite. If it was a dirty play, some non-Giants fans would think so too.[/quote]

The collision didn’t happen on the line as if Posey was blocking the plate. He didn’t dive into the runner’s path either. The runner ran at Posey, NOT the plate (which was to his right, NOT right in front of him). I don’t know how else that can be defined. The runner made a play on Posey, NOT the plate. Whatever he anticipated, it clearly included him going out of his way and the plate’s way to initiate contact with a player who was not impeding his path to the plate.

The comments about not playing were directed at rajraj. And Bonez isn’t a Giants fan at all, but he played the game at a high level and he still plays now.[/quote]

Fair enough. In my opinion, he decided to make a bulldozer move towards the plate expecting Posey to be in his way; but, once Posey was late getting there, he had no option but to aim towards him because diving shoulder first straight towards the bag would have resulted in an out (as Posey ran into his midsection before he hit home), and he was already committed to the motion and couldn’t slide.

Reasonable minds may disagree, I suppose.[/quote]

Do you watch a lot of baseball? By a lot I mean 90% of the games you have access to on cable. You dont seem to comprehend how often players hook slide to score. Out of all the times there is a play or potential play at the plate, a collision is the huge minority of the results. I dont need statistics on this. I watch a lot of baseball. Guys only barrel a catcher over when it’s absolutely necessary. For good reason too, there is a huge injury risk for the runner. It just so happens that the runner in this case is some no name journeyman that doesnt give a shit if he hurts himself because he probably doesnt have a career ahead of him anyway.

You make it sound like collisions at the plate are an inevitable part of baseball. In reality, collisions are a rare occurance. There are about 90-100 games played per week. If there was 1 collision per week I’d be shocked. [/quote]

Are you sure about that? Perhaps they just don’t get much media attention unless it happens to star player and there’s an injury.

There have been 2 in the last week. Did you hear about them? I’m guessing no since they weren’t star players or Yankees.
[/quote]

The point is that they’re rare. And they definitely get media attention since a collision at the plate is guaranteed to get replayed a million times on SportsCenter or Baseball Tonight, regardless of what happens. I’ve seen almost every single Giants game this year and every Sunday Night Game of the Week on ESPN and I’ve seen two collisions. I played baseball from 1st grade right through college at the DI level and I was involved in a grand total of two collisions at the plate and played in maybe three other games where there was a collision. I don’t have numbers to back this up, but I would feel safe betting that 99% of the runs scored in a season happen without a collision at the plate.

I also know from experience that some guys have it made up in their mind beforehand that if the opportunity presents itself, they will go right through the catcher and ask questions later. I’ve heard guys in the dugout say this very thing before and during games. I screamed it at a catcher on the other team in high school once. I’m not saying that this is what Cousins did, but for all of those who want to claim that he was simply reacting or Posey dove into him (an utter falsehood) or that he was committed to going headfirst and it was too late to avoid Posey, keep in mind that it is entirely possible that Cousins knew before the ball was even hit that he was going to light Posey up on a play at the plate no matter what. After all, that’s what it looked like and it certainly wouldn’t be the first time a player had committed himself to going through the catcher before the play even actually happened.

[BONEZ217]

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Posey dove toward the plate after the ball hit his glove. 19 out of 20 major leaguers would have barreled into him.

I think being allowed to hit a defensive catcher is a stupid rule. It was not a dirty play.[/quote]

Exactly.

A play at the plate in a tie game in extra innings? Almost every player in the league would have done the same.[/quote]

Why are you ignoring the fact that the whole plate was exposed?

MOST major leaguers would hook slide around the catcher to GUARENTEE they would score. Not HOPE that the catcher loses the ball in the collision.

Do you know how easily the runner could have slid around posey? Instead he lowered his shoulder and went out of his way to hit Posey. Posey WASNT blocking the plate. If the catcher isnt blocking the plate then the runner necessarily went out of his way to make contact. The runners goal is to get to home plate and if it wasnt blocked, what’s the reason to knock the catcher over?
[/quote]

I don’t know how you can ignore the context - Posey was diving towards the plate in an effort to block it, Cousins was preparing for it to be blocked. Yeah he probably could have avoided it with a good slide, but I don’t agree that “most” major leaguers would.

I hope you and DB are this agitated about every similar plate collision and not just ones involving the Giants. What about the Carlos Santana play last year when the guy could have easily slid under his extended leg?[/quote]

What agitates me is hearing someone who never played the game start dispensing judgments about the unwritten rules of the game, rules you’d have to have played to understand. Posey was diving toward the plate because he wasn’t in front of it. He didn’t dive into contact; Cousins sought it out and created it and it happened in front of the plate. Posey was NOT impeding his route to the plate, period. That makes it a dirty play.

Regarding double plays rajraj: the rule states that as long as you can reach out to touch the bag it’s a legal play. But players do not barrel through a guy if he’s on the bag getting ready to receive the ball, they don’t come in with high cleats, they don’t roll over or put unnecessary body english into the slide, especially when the fielder’s back is turned and all of this happens at a time when the fielder already has the ball. Players police themselves and they know that there are certain plays that they should not make even if they aren’t technically illegal ones. It’s not illegal to break up a double play, but players know there is a wrong and a right way to do it, just like there is a right and wrong time to plow through the catcher. What Cousins did was the wrong play and people who played the game can understand this subtle difference. So stop with the whole “legality” aspect of the play entirely. Of course it’s a legal play, just like throwing in the general vicinity of a player’s head or sliding with your spikes up.[/quote]

LMAO I wasn’t aware that I said I’ve never played the game. It would be weird for me to say, given that I did play all through elementary school and high school. And yes, I was catcher for a while.

He has to make a decision early whether he is going to barrel into the catcher or slide. Like, a few steps down the line. He thought Posey was going to block the plate, so he made his decisions a few steps out. He had to start lowering his shoulder before he realized Posey would be late to the plate. At that point if he tries to avoid Posey he is out no matter what, so he seeks contact (he did not have any time at all to react to the dropped ball, even if he saw it at all).

One other thing I noticed (and always look for in sports arguments) is that the only people arguing it’s dirty are Giants fans, and every impartial fan who doesn’t give a rats ass is arguing the opposite. If it was a dirty play, some non-Giants fans would think so too.[/quote]

The collision didn’t happen on the line as if Posey was blocking the plate. He didn’t dive into the runner’s path either. The runner ran at Posey, NOT the plate (which was to his right, NOT right in front of him). I don’t know how else that can be defined. The runner made a play on Posey, NOT the plate. Whatever he anticipated, it clearly included him going out of his way and the plate’s way to initiate contact with a player who was not impeding his path to the plate.

The comments about not playing were directed at rajraj. And Bonez isn’t a Giants fan at all, but he played the game at a high level and he still plays now.[/quote]

Fair enough. In my opinion, he decided to make a bulldozer move towards the plate expecting Posey to be in his way; but, once Posey was late getting there, he had no option but to aim towards him because diving shoulder first straight towards the bag would have resulted in an out (as Posey ran into his midsection before he hit home), and he was already committed to the motion and couldn’t slide.

Reasonable minds may disagree, I suppose.[/quote]

Do you watch a lot of baseball? By a lot I mean 90% of the games you have access to on cable. You dont seem to comprehend how often players hook slide to score. Out of all the times there is a play or potential play at the plate, a collision is the huge minority of the results. I dont need statistics on this. I watch a lot of baseball. Guys only barrel a catcher over when it’s absolutely necessary. For good reason too, there is a huge injury risk for the runner. It just so happens that the runner in this case is some no name journeyman that doesnt give a shit if he hurts himself because he probably doesnt have a career ahead of him anyway.

You make it sound like collisions at the plate are an inevitable part of baseball. In reality, collisions are a rare occurance. There are about 90-100 games played per week. If there was 1 collision per week I’d be shocked. [/quote]

Are you sure about that? Perhaps they just don’t get much media attention unless it happens to star player and there’s an injury.

There have been 2 in the last week. Did you hear about them? I’m guessing no since they weren’t star players or Yankees.
[/quote]

Are you talking about an actual collision specifically? I dont mean a play where a runner slid (feet or headfirst) and got tagged out.

[DBCooper]

Human growth hormone can lead to better vision and a better ability to track the ball toward the plate.

[therajraj]

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Posey dove toward the plate after the ball hit his glove. 19 out of 20 major leaguers would have barreled into him.

I think being allowed to hit a defensive catcher is a stupid rule. It was not a dirty play.[/quote]

Exactly.

A play at the plate in a tie game in extra innings? Almost every player in the league would have done the same.[/quote]

Why are you ignoring the fact that the whole plate was exposed?

MOST major leaguers would hook slide around the catcher to GUARENTEE they would score. Not HOPE that the catcher loses the ball in the collision.

Do you know how easily the runner could have slid around posey? Instead he lowered his shoulder and went out of his way to hit Posey. Posey WASNT blocking the plate. If the catcher isnt blocking the plate then the runner necessarily went out of his way to make contact. The runners goal is to get to home plate and if it wasnt blocked, what’s the reason to knock the catcher over?
[/quote]

I don’t know how you can ignore the context - Posey was diving towards the plate in an effort to block it, Cousins was preparing for it to be blocked. Yeah he probably could have avoided it with a good slide, but I don’t agree that “most” major leaguers would.

I hope you and DB are this agitated about every similar plate collision and not just ones involving the Giants. What about the Carlos Santana play last year when the guy could have easily slid under his extended leg?[/quote]

What agitates me is hearing someone who never played the game start dispensing judgments about the unwritten rules of the game, rules you’d have to have played to understand. Posey was diving toward the plate because he wasn’t in front of it. He didn’t dive into contact; Cousins sought it out and created it and it happened in front of the plate. Posey was NOT impeding his route to the plate, period. That makes it a dirty play.

Regarding double plays rajraj: the rule states that as long as you can reach out to touch the bag it’s a legal play. But players do not barrel through a guy if he’s on the bag getting ready to receive the ball, they don’t come in with high cleats, they don’t roll over or put unnecessary body english into the slide, especially when the fielder’s back is turned and all of this happens at a time when the fielder already has the ball. Players police themselves and they know that there are certain plays that they should not make even if they aren’t technically illegal ones. It’s not illegal to break up a double play, but players know there is a wrong and a right way to do it, just like there is a right and wrong time to plow through the catcher. What Cousins did was the wrong play and people who played the game can understand this subtle difference. So stop with the whole “legality” aspect of the play entirely. Of course it’s a legal play, just like throwing in the general vicinity of a player’s head or sliding with your spikes up.[/quote]

LMAO I wasn’t aware that I said I’ve never played the game. It would be weird for me to say, given that I did play all through elementary school and high school. And yes, I was catcher for a while.

He has to make a decision early whether he is going to barrel into the catcher or slide. Like, a few steps down the line. He thought Posey was going to block the plate, so he made his decisions a few steps out. He had to start lowering his shoulder before he realized Posey would be late to the plate. At that point if he tries to avoid Posey he is out no matter what, so he seeks contact (he did not have any time at all to react to the dropped ball, even if he saw it at all).

One other thing I noticed (and always look for in sports arguments) is that the only people arguing it’s dirty are Giants fans, and every impartial fan who doesn’t give a rats ass is arguing the opposite. If it was a dirty play, some non-Giants fans would think so too.[/quote]

The collision didn’t happen on the line as if Posey was blocking the plate. He didn’t dive into the runner’s path either. The runner ran at Posey, NOT the plate (which was to his right, NOT right in front of him). I don’t know how else that can be defined. The runner made a play on Posey, NOT the plate. Whatever he anticipated, it clearly included him going out of his way and the plate’s way to initiate contact with a player who was not impeding his path to the plate.

The comments about not playing were directed at rajraj. And Bonez isn’t a Giants fan at all, but he played the game at a high level and he still plays now.[/quote]

Fair enough. In my opinion, he decided to make a bulldozer move towards the plate expecting Posey to be in his way; but, once Posey was late getting there, he had no option but to aim towards him because diving shoulder first straight towards the bag would have resulted in an out (as Posey ran into his midsection before he hit home), and he was already committed to the motion and couldn’t slide.

Reasonable minds may disagree, I suppose.[/quote]

Do you watch a lot of baseball? By a lot I mean 90% of the games you have access to on cable. You dont seem to comprehend how often players hook slide to score. Out of all the times there is a play or potential play at the plate, a collision is the huge minority of the results. I dont need statistics on this. I watch a lot of baseball. Guys only barrel a catcher over when it’s absolutely necessary. For good reason too, there is a huge injury risk for the runner. It just so happens that the runner in this case is some no name journeyman that doesnt give a shit if he hurts himself because he probably doesnt have a career ahead of him anyway.

You make it sound like collisions at the plate are an inevitable part of baseball. In reality, collisions are a rare occurance. There are about 90-100 games played per week. If there was 1 collision per week I’d be shocked. [/quote]

Are you sure about that? Perhaps they just don’t get much media attention unless it happens to star player and there’s an injury.

There have been 2 in the last week. Did you hear about them? I’m guessing no since they weren’t star players or Yankees.
[/quote]

Are you talking about an actual collision specifically? I dont mean a play where a runner slid (feet or headfirst) and got tagged out. [/quote]

I include any play where the catcher is attempting to block the plate and the runner makes hard contact. He may be sliding. Anything resembling a tag at bases 1-3 is not counted.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110527&content_id=19661012&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb Quintero

http://network.yardbarker.com/mlb/article_external/whiteside_ok_after_collision_at_plate_with_fielder/4808769 Whiteside

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15333667 Ryan Doumit

Not questioning if they are dirty just a discussion of frequency.