MLB 2011 Part Two

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Oh come on, not another one with a home run fixation

How bout this

You have two guys

Guy 1 hits 0 home runs. Drives in 100 runs.

Guy 2 hits 99 home runs. Drives in 99 runs.

Who is more valuable to putting W’s on the scoreboard?

And about the OBP comment, since I dont think you read all the comments, what good is a player reaching base if he doesnt drive in a run in the process or proceed to score a run? “Total baserunners” isnt even a stat that’s considered when measuring the productivity of a team’s offense. [/quote]

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.

edit - not only home runs though, all forms of power are valuable… doubles, triples etc. Not as much as HR, but should’ve clarified a bit more.

Bautista makes an out when comes to the plate less often than any other player in baseball - in the toughest division. That’s not valuable?

[quote]scj119 wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.
[/quote]

And runs scored is basically the other side of the coin. Having good hitters behind you must also be an invaluable skill.

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Bautista makes an out when comes to the plate less often than any other player in baseball - in the toughest division. That’s not valuable?[/quote]

Of course it is, hence his inclusion in a discussion where he is outmatched in 2 very important stat categories.

But it’s not nearly as important as being responsible for putting runs on the scoreboard. Scoring runs wins games. Not getting on base.

No one said Bautista isnt valuable. But he isnt the MOST valuable player when a few other guys are responsible for a whole lot more runs on the scoreboard. Again, wins are not handed out to the team that puts the most men on base.

This is what I wrote about WAR earlier in the thread.

WAR is a funny stat. It depends heavily on how strong a teams bench and minor league system is in addition to how the player performs. Obviously I’m a person that prefers to look at the most concrete stats when deciding an MVP. WAR doesnt say how much better a player is than other players in the league, it says how many more wins he accounts for than a bench player or a minor leaguer or someone on the waiver wire. Obviously WAR depends on how the player produces but we have all the other stats to figure that out, WAR just adds in the dynamic of how deep the bench/farm system is.

Good to show contribution to the TEAM but doesnt say who’s the best in the LEAGUE, IMO

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.
[/quote]

And runs scored is basically the other side of the coin. Having good hitters behind you must also be an invaluable skill.[/quote]

Ah so that’s where the baserunning stats came from. It does take some skill to baserun but give me the slowpoke on 2nd with Mark Teixiera batting over the speedster on 2nd with Adam Lind batting.

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Oh come on, not another one with a home run fixation

How bout this

You have two guys

Guy 1 hits 0 home runs. Drives in 100 runs.

Guy 2 hits 99 home runs. Drives in 99 runs.

Who is more valuable to putting W’s on the scoreboard?

And about the OBP comment, since I dont think you read all the comments, what good is a player reaching base if he doesnt drive in a run in the process or proceed to score a run? “Total baserunners” isnt even a stat that’s considered when measuring the productivity of a team’s offense. [/quote]

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.

edit - not only home runs though, all forms of power are valuable… doubles, triples etc. Not as much as HR, but should’ve clarified a bit more.[/quote]

Dude. You have no clue what youre talking about.

At what level did you stop playing baseball?

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.
[/quote]

And runs scored is basically the other side of the coin. Having good hitters behind you must also be an invaluable skill.[/quote]

Ah so that’s where the baserunning stats came from. It does take some skill to baserun but give me the slowpoke on 2nd with Mark Teixiera batting over the speedster on 2nd with Adam Lind batting.[/quote]

This comment proves my point exactly. Runs scored are the whole reason to play the game.

Who gives a shit if you get on base if you dont score. What you just wrote here says exactly that. Damn.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.
[/quote]

And runs scored is basically the other side of the coin. Having good hitters behind you must also be an invaluable skill.[/quote]

Id love for you to find an example of ONE general manager, manager, historian that will say that OBP is a more important stat than RBI when it comes to winning games.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.
[/quote]

And runs scored is basically the other side of the coin. Having good hitters behind you must also be an invaluable skill.[/quote]

Id love for you to find an example of ONE general manager, manager, historian that will say that OBP is a more important stat than RBI when it comes to winning games. [/quote]

I don’t have to because that’s not the point I’m making. Runs matter more than OBP for winning games I agree. But the amount of runs scored by an individual does not accurately depict his INDIVIDUAL contribution to the team. Hence, why I said I like runs scored as a team stat but not an individual performance measure.

Robinson Cano is the best hitter on the Yankees. By far. It’s not even debatable.

Yet he doesnt bat third. He bats fifth because that gives him a better chance to hit with men on base over the course of a season. You want your best hitters to have the most opportunities to drive in runs. This is such basic baseball ideology I cant wrap my head around the fact that there are people that think runs on the scoreboard aren’t the most important stat by a mile.

You can claim that Granderson having more RBI than Cano blows up the idea that the 5 hitter has more RBI opportunities than the 2,3,6 (where Granderson has hit this year) but it doesnt. Cano has had a down year for the most part whilst Granderson is having the best year of his career. And Cano hasnt been moved up in the batting order because he doesnt run well enough. Simple as that.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Bautista makes an out when comes to the plate less often than any other player in baseball - in the toughest division. That’s not valuable?[/quote]

Of course it is, hence his inclusion in a discussion where he is outmatched in 2 very important stat categories.

But it’s not nearly as important as being responsible for putting runs on the scoreboard. Scoring runs wins games. Not getting on base.

No one said Bautista isnt valuable. But he isnt the MOST valuable player when a few other guys are responsible for a whole lot more runs on the scoreboard. Again, wins are not handed out to the team that puts the most men on base.

This is what I wrote about WAR earlier in the thread.

WAR is a funny stat. It depends heavily on how strong a teams bench and minor league system is in addition to how the player performs. Obviously I’m a person that prefers to look at the most concrete stats when deciding an MVP. WAR doesnt say how much better a player is than other players in the league, it says how many more wins he accounts for than a bench player or a minor leaguer or someone on the waiver wire. Obviously WAR depends on how the player produces but we have all the other stats to figure that out, WAR just adds in the dynamic of how deep the bench/farm system is.

Good to show contribution to the TEAM but doesnt say who’s the best in the LEAGUE, IMO [/quote]

WAR is relative to the average replacement player, not to that team’s specific replacement if someone was injured.

The problem is RBI opportunities are not equal. Granderson has come to the plate 272 times with runners on, and 157 times with RISP (12 times bases loaded)

Bautista has come to the plate 253 times with runners on, 142 with RISP (4 times bases loaded).

I would bet dollars to donuts that there have been a lot fewer runners on when Bautista bats as well (i.e. “Runners On” means 1 runner instead of 2).

How is that his fault? I could have more RBI than Granderson if you gave me 600 at-bats with the bases loaded and gave him 600 at-bats with the bases empty (well probably not, but you get the point… a single-A player could). That wouldn’t make that single-A player more valuable than Granderson.

When you’re talking about two guys of near-equal talent level, small differences in those numbers can lead to big differences in RBI. Pitchers basically walk Bautista every time he comes to bat with RISP, is that his fault? He’s been walked 49 out of 142 plate appearances with RISP because he has no protection, Granderson’s been walked 16 out of 157 times in that situation because he has Teix behind him.

Consider how many more chances Granderson’s had to put the ball in play with runners in scoring position.

Let me reiterate that last point. Granderson has had 141 at bats with runners in scoring position to Bautista’s 93. Bautista would have to be the best hitter of all time to make up that difference.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.
[/quote]

And runs scored is basically the other side of the coin. Having good hitters behind you must also be an invaluable skill.[/quote]

Id love for you to find an example of ONE general manager, manager, historian that will say that OBP is a more important stat than RBI when it comes to winning games. [/quote]

I don’t have to because that’s not the point I’m making. Runs matter more than OBP for winning games I agree. But the amount of runs scored by an individual does not accurately depict his INDIVIDUAL contribution to the team. Hence, why I said I like runs scored as a team stat but not an individual performance measure.

[/quote]

Individual contribution to the team is NOT what MVP is given for.

MVP is best player in the LEAGUE. If the award was given to the player most valuable to his team no yankee or red sox or phillie would be capable of winning the award. That criteria would automatically make a good player on a terrible team a landslide winner over a very good player on a 1st place team.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.
[/quote]

And runs scored is basically the other side of the coin. Having good hitters behind you must also be an invaluable skill.[/quote]

Ah so that’s where the baserunning stats came from. It does take some skill to baserun but give me the slowpoke on 2nd with Mark Teixiera batting over the speedster on 2nd with Adam Lind batting.[/quote]

This comment proves my point exactly. Runs scored are the whole reason to play the game.

Who gives a shit if you get on base if you dont score. What you just wrote here says exactly that. Damn. [/quote]

YOU CAN’T SCORE RUNS IF YOU DON’T GET ON BASE. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

My point is getting on base is the MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO to set up runs being scored. This is not hard to understand.

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Let me reiterate that last point. Granderson has had 141 at bats with runners in scoring position to Bautista’s 93. Bautista would have to be the best hitter of all time to make up that difference.[/quote]

Read my posts earlier on. We covered all of this already.

WHat you are saying is that the player on the bad team should have his stats given more weight than the player on the good team.

PRODUCTION wins games. Winning games is all that matters. You get credit for production, not for potential production. Again, if potential production was the barometer it would be impossible to have anything close to a concrete analysis of worth.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.
[/quote]

And runs scored is basically the other side of the coin. Having good hitters behind you must also be an invaluable skill.[/quote]

Ah so that’s where the baserunning stats came from. It does take some skill to baserun but give me the slowpoke on 2nd with Mark Teixiera batting over the speedster on 2nd with Adam Lind batting.[/quote]

This comment proves my point exactly. Runs scored are the whole reason to play the game.

Who gives a shit if you get on base if you dont score. What you just wrote here says exactly that. Damn. [/quote]

Let me argue this point with more clarity. I’d take Mark Teixiera in that situation BECAUSE he is less likely to make an out, WHICH IN TURN makes him more likely to drive in the run.

This is different than saying he’s a better hitter because he has more RBI.

Even if Teix was an equal hitter to Adam Lind, he would have more RBI because he has men on base more frequently when he hits. This is not arguable.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Let me reiterate that last point. Granderson has had 141 at bats with runners in scoring position to Bautista’s 93. Bautista would have to be the best hitter of all time to make up that difference.[/quote]

Read my posts earlier on. We covered all of this already.

WHat you are saying is that the player on the bad team should have his stats given more weight than the player on the good team.

PRODUCTION wins games. Winning games is all that matters. You get credit for production, not for potential production. Again, if potential production was the barometer it would be impossible to have anything close to a concrete analysis of worth. [/quote]

OK, well if you’re penalizing someone for not having a chance to drive in runs, we simply aren’t going to agree and will have to leave it at that. Fair enough.

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.
[/quote]

And runs scored is basically the other side of the coin. Having good hitters behind you must also be an invaluable skill.[/quote]

Ah so that’s where the baserunning stats came from. It does take some skill to baserun but give me the slowpoke on 2nd with Mark Teixiera batting over the speedster on 2nd with Adam Lind batting.[/quote]

This comment proves my point exactly. Runs scored are the whole reason to play the game.

Who gives a shit if you get on base if you dont score. What you just wrote here says exactly that. Damn. [/quote]

YOU CAN’T SCORE RUNS IF YOU DON’T GET ON BASE. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

My point is getting on base is the MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO to set up runs being scored. This is not hard to understand.
[/quote]

And being in the lineup is the most important thing you can do to give yourself a chance to get on base. And staying healthy all season is the most important thing you can do to give yourself a chance to be in the lineup everyday. And working hard in the offseason is the most important thing you can do to ensure longevity.

Jesus christ. POTENTIAL PRODUCTION is NOT what makes a player valuable.

Seriously, at what age did you stop playing baseball?

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot about the invaluable skill of getting men on base in front of you.

Laugh. RBI are a joke.
[/quote]

And runs scored is basically the other side of the coin. Having good hitters behind you must also be an invaluable skill.[/quote]

Id love for you to find an example of ONE general manager, manager, historian that will say that OBP is a more important stat than RBI when it comes to winning games. [/quote]

I don’t have to because that’s not the point I’m making. Runs matter more than OBP for winning games I agree. But the amount of runs scored by an individual does not accurately depict his INDIVIDUAL contribution to the team. Hence, why I said I like runs scored as a team stat but not an individual performance measure.

[/quote]

Individual contribution to the team is NOT what MVP is given for.

MVP is best player in the LEAGUE. If the award was given to the player most valuable to his team no yankee or red sox or phillie would be capable of winning the award. That criteria would automatically make a good player on a terrible team a landslide winner over a very good player on a 1st place team. [/quote]

I agree and I don’t see how that changes anything. I’m not trying to give Bautista an advantage for playing on a bad team, rather I’m trying to discount the stats that heavily benefit players on good teams - Runs scored and RBI.

I think of the MVP as going to the best player. Most valuable to me is who would be paid the most for the current year’s production, knowing what we know now. IMO if you plopped Bautista where Granderson is, he’d have more RBI, ergo, he’s more valuable. But it is a term people can interpret differently, and that’s fine.

Also, we are strictly talking offense, that’s what raj stated at the start… I personally think defense is part of the MVP debate and Granderson plays the tougher position by far, so that would be weighed if I had a vote.