Misconceptions of Christianity

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1061

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

If you will answer the question I asked previously:

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?
[/quote]

“[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).
[/quote]

Hmm. Ok. So are you saying that after a request for intercession, the Saint would then literally pray for you, instead of just “delivering the message” if you had prayed directly to God? Am I understanding this correctly?

1062

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

If you will answer the question I asked previously:

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?
[/quote]

“[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).
[/quote]

Hmm. Ok. So are you saying that after a request for intercession, the Saint would then literally pray for you, instead of just “delivering the message” if you had prayed directly to God? Am I understanding this correctly?

[/quote]

Yes, they would ‘pray’ for me as would any member of the Church.

1063

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

If you will answer the question I asked previously:

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?
[/quote]

“[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).
[/quote]

Hmm. Ok. So are you saying that after a request for intercession, the Saint would then literally pray for you, instead of just “delivering the message” if you had prayed directly to God? Am I understanding this correctly?

[/quote]

Yes, they would ‘pray’ for me as would any member of the Church.
[/quote]

So then I can assume your answer to my above question is “yes”, then?

1064

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

I’d say atheistic atrocities are compounded by the pridefullness of atheists who trivialize the oppressed and murdered, by denying why they were oppressed and murdered under their banner.
[/quote]

Atheist system/people (Soviets, China, etc.) by their very nature devalue the human being. The next step of destroying life by the millions is merely a bureaucratic move. [/quote]

That is simply not true. A religion because it believes in an after life actually has less incentive to minimise suffering in the here and now.

If I let you suffer now, the suffering is good for your soul therefore I am helping you. (Mother Theressa had logic that ran along those lines)

If I go and blow myself up taking with me the enemies of my God then I will get my reward in the afterlife.

Neither of those positions would happen in an atheist society where the greater good of the community is all that should be important. (I know that the greater good argument has been horrifically misapplied however it is not the argument that is wrong.)[/quote]

Mother Theresa’s logic did not run along those lines - where do you get this stuff from? She worked her entire life to help the poor and sick. What she said (and I think this is what you’re referring to) about suffering is: that we can all bear suffering, even the worst suffering imaginable, if we realize that the suffering here on earth will seem but a minor inconvenience, like a brief stay in an uncomfortable motel, compared to the blessedness of heaven.

Her engagement in and with the world and its suffering - like the work of everyone in the Church that preceeds and follows her - was only deepened by her faith. Quite the opposite, in fact, to what you’re suggesting.

The Church has performed more compassionate acts than any other group of people on earth. Ever. Bar none. And its members do so because they have the strength to do so; because they have a standard by which to compare present reality; because they are compelled to do so by love. The existence of heaven and heavenly things only furthers and deepens our engagement in the world.

I’d be glad to argue this^ - I do think you’re extremely confused on this matter.

But that’s another topic: what I was saying is that atheist peoples/systems fundamentally devalue the human being. Do I really have to argue that Communism does so? That Communist regimes have not only done so - but thereby proceed in a kind of nightmare logic to deciminate huge mases of people? Do I really have to argue that?

1065

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

If you will answer the question I asked previously:

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?
[/quote]

“[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).
[/quote]

Hmm. Ok. So are you saying that after a request for intercession, the Saint would then literally pray for you, instead of just “delivering the message” if you had prayed directly to God? Am I understanding this correctly?

[/quote]

Yes, they would ‘pray’ for me as would any member of the Church.
[/quote]

So then I can assume your answer to my above question is “yes”, then?[/quote]

Yep. Thought I had been clear on that.

1066

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…who are the godless parties in this current conflict?
[/quote]

Technically all of them as I am sure our religious brethren will inform us.[/quote]

…well, if reality had any meaning to those people we wouldn’t have religion in the first place…
[/quote]

Even for you that was embarrsingly lame ephrem. [/quote]

…and yet it’s true. If this life had as much value as heaven holds for religious folks, things might be different…
[/quote]

Atheism didn’t stop state atheists from their own deeds. Enough with the Atheism of Peace message. No one is buying it.[/quote]

You are looking at it the wrong way round. Groups of people are typically pretty nasty to other groups of people. Power has a corrupting influence. Whether people grab on to Religion to use as an Excuse or Atheism. The cause is not the faith or lack of it, it is human nature.

The reason that the religious try to throw up State Atheism as the biggest butcher is that firstly they wrongly include a number of religiously motivated individuals and groups as being atheist, and secondly some of the truly atheist groups just so happened to have larger populations to murder. This was due to the timing in history more than being any product of lack of religion.[/quote]

Haha, that is a crock of shit. Who is going to be more charitable to another group of people, people that are required by their G-d to charitable to all people, or a group that believes there is no after life so what we do in this life does not matter, because if we die, it is all over anyway.

Plus history proves me right.[/quote]

As I have stated elsewhere. The group of people who are being nice because they want to be nice and because they are focussed on this life really should be nicer than the group of people who are only being nice because they are told to by an unseen master so that they can get a reward in the next life.

Of course in reality, nice people are nice, nasty people are nasty and both sets can draw their justification from a number of sources.

1067

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

As I have stated elsewhere. The group of people who are being nice because they want to be nice and because they are focussed on this life really should be nicer than the group of people who are only being nice because they are told to by an unseen master so that they can get a reward in the next life.[/quote]

LOL. Is that what you think Christianity is? Really?

1068

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

As I have stated elsewhere. The group of people who are being nice because they want to be nice and because they are focussed on this life really should be nicer than the group of people who are only being nice because they are told to by an unseen master so that they can get a reward in the next life.

Of course in reality, nice people are nice, nasty people are nasty and both sets can draw their justification from a number of sources.[/quote]

Are you saying being nice is a predisposition for atheists? That they don’t learn niceness–eventually appreciating ‘nice’ for itself–through authority? I’d argue that almost no one would be ‘nice’ without an authority, at least originally, imparting a lesson. Parents, the meek kid you were bullying for awhile turning around an whooping your behind one day, gossiping only to be caught and humiliated by the victim. I would say every child, and even a good many adults, learns to be nice if only to get by. At first. After that, one might develop an appreciation for niceness, or not. Atheist might not break a law, for instance, because even if he could get away with it, the law is. So, it wouldn’t be the nice thing to do. Or, he may not break the law, because who the heck wants to risk prison?

Your statement does read that athe

1069

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

So the Roman Church is going back to it’s polytheistic roots step by step ;-)[/quote]

I know you jest, but so people do not take this the wrong way, no we are not. We never took Mary as Deity.[/quote]

Face it, your religion is polytheistic (at least as much so as Hinduism) and practices human sacrifice and canibalism.

You can wrap it up in fancy language but at the root, that is what your religions practices are. Not that there is anythign wrong with that ;-)[/quote]

Nay on the polytheistic, and yes on the second two. Are Bible, doctrine, and tradition do not point nor say more than one G-d.

1070

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
For the Catholic, the Church community isn’t resigned to the earth alone. And being social and finite beings, we approach those in heaven by person, too.

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

[/quote]

Both of these verses are speaking about angels. They do not talk about Humans in Heaven. I am all for telling the Angels to Praise him with me. I just spent an hour in the car listening to Christian Music praising my God on my lunch break. When I type in here I am wanting to glorify God in all my words. I mess up all the time. I wish all Catholics understood the doctrines as well as you all. I personally think you guys are the exception and not the rule.

Even though we disagree on some subjects we are all in the family of God.

CB and Eph you both love hanging out here in these Christian threads so I would like to reach out to you two with a verse. Revelation 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Jesus is reaching out to you two. All you have to do is open the door. [/quote]

As I keep saying, I know Jesus, he is my friend. In fact he works for me as a team leader.

1071

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]

Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp[/quote]

I think this sums up the question fairly well:

“Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!”

While this may strengthen the argument that they can actually hear the prayers, it also strengthens the argument that it’s not necessary to ask for intercession because:

“-the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God…They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.” It doesn’t say only after we ask for intercession, rather it seems to be automatic.

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?

I guess I’m wondering what the importance of asking for intercession is if the Saints already aware of our petitions and offer them to God.

[/quote]

This is the same rational that people used to use to say you didn’t need to pray at all, since G-d knows your needs, He will just give you what you need without being asked, &c.[/quote]

I have never used that rational and disagree with it. And I do feel that prayer is necessary, and praying for others is a good thing and should be done. Which is why we should ask our earthly brothers and sisters to pray for us. And for them to pray on our behalf, we MUST ask, as they won’t readily know our need for it. I’ll say it again, those multitude of prayers will be heard by the Saints regardless of a formal request of intercession. It will happen automatically.

If you will answer the question I asked previously:

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?
[/quote]

I cannot be positive on that note, but the Bible tells me so, to ask my brothers and sisters to pray for me, that includes the Saints in Heaven. The difference between the Saints in Heaven and the Saints on earth is that the one’s in Heaven, I know will pray for me and not just say they will like some people do on Heaven. I still ask those on earth to pray for me, but I know that the one’s in Heaven will pray.

1072

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…again, and i stress, people killing people in the name of atheism. Give me examples? Not ideology, not stress related, not madness, but purely killings in the name of atheism…
[/quote]

aye - but see, you had to add all sorts of caveats to your request . . . when one does not have a religious ideology - it is replaced with another ideology . . . thus any ideology based on the absence of religion would qualify . . .

everyone killed in russia from 19-teens through 1990 . . . just a few . . .[/quote]

Stalin was in a seminary preparing to become a Priest before he became to all intents and purposes a God to his people so not sure where the atheism comes in on that example.

1073

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

4th Kings ii. God of Elijah, read that. A reason to ask them for prayer is because you know that they’ll pray for you, they won’t just say they will like some earthy Christians do.[/quote]

Sorry, but I am not understanding the 4th Kings ii. To us Protestants would the be 2 Kings Chapter 4, or is this one of the apocryphal books?[/quote]

Sorry, I forget about that once and awhile. 2nd Kings, Chapter two, I believe.

1074

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

I’d say atheistic atrocities are compounded by the pridefullness of atheists who trivialize the oppressed and murdered, by denying why they were oppressed and murdered under their banner.
[/quote]

Atheist system/people (Soviets, China, etc.) by their very nature devalue the human being. The next step of destroying life by the millions is merely a bureaucratic move. [/quote]

That is simply not true. A religion because it believes in an after life actually has less incentive to minimise suffering in the here and now.

If I let you suffer now, the suffering is good for your soul therefore I am helping you. (Mother Theressa had logic that ran along those lines)

If I go and blow myself up taking with me the enemies of my God then I will get my reward in the afterlife.

Neither of those positions would happen in an atheist society where the greater good of the community is all that should be important. (I know that the greater good argument has been horrifically misapplied however it is not the argument that is wrong.)[/quote]

Mother Theresa’s logic did not run along those lines - where do you get this stuff from? She worked her entire life to help the poor and sick. What she said (and I think this is what you’re referring to) about suffering is: that we can all bear suffering, even the worst suffering imaginable, if we realize that the suffering here on earth will seem but a minor inconvenience, like a brief stay in an uncomfortable motel, compared to the blessedness of heaven.

Her engagement in and with the world and its suffering - like the work of everyone in the Church that precedes and follows her - was only deepened by her faith. Quite the opposite, in fact, to what you’re suggesting.

The Church has performed more compassionate acts than any other group of people on earth. Ever. Bar none. And its members do so because they have the strength to do so; because they have a standard by which to compare present reality; because they are compelled to do so by love. The existence of heaven and heavenly things only furthers and deepens our engagement in the world.

I’d be glad to argue this^ - I do think you’re extremely confused on this matter.

But that’s another topic: what I was saying is that atheist peoples/systems fundamentally devalue the human being. Do I really have to argue that Communism does so? That Communist regimes have not only done so - but thereby proceed in a kind of nightmare logic to deciminate huge mases of people? Do I really have to argue that?

[/quote]

Mother Theressa shunned modern medicine for the people in her care preferring to keep them in a state of suffering that was conducive to the atmosphere she wanted her Nuns to live in. She also supported some pretty horrific regimes and embezzled funds. Not the Saint that the Catholic Church would like to paint her to be.

Large scale communism I agree has some pretty big issues but I don’t think any system can devalue the individual more than the Catholic Church which claims that we are all scum, inherently sinners and should writhe on the ground in joy that God cares enough to give us diseases, hardships and pain saying thank you master, give me more master like some sort of Sado Masochist being spanked by his Dominatrix.

1075

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

As I have stated elsewhere. The group of people who are being nice because they want to be nice and because they are focussed on this life really should be nicer than the group of people who are only being nice because they are told to by an unseen master so that they can get a reward in the next life.[/quote]

LOL. Is that what you think Christianity is? Really? [/quote]

At a very basic and ridiculously simplified level yes that is the case.

1076

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…again, and i stress, people killing people in the name of atheism. Give me examples? Not ideology, not stress related, not madness, but purely killings in the name of atheism…
[/quote]

aye - but see, you had to add all sorts of caveats to your request . . . when one does not have a religious ideology - it is replaced with another ideology . . . thus any ideology based on the absence of religion would qualify . . .

everyone killed in russia from 19-teens through 1990 . . . just a few . . .[/quote]

Stalin was in a seminary preparing to become a Priest before he became to all intents and purposes a God to his people so not sure where the atheism comes in on that example.[/quote]

Because he was an atheist.

1077

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

As I have stated elsewhere. The group of people who are being nice because they want to be nice and because they are focussed on this life really should be nicer than the group of people who are only being nice because they are told to by an unseen master so that they can get a reward in the next life.[/quote]

LOL. Is that what you think Christianity is? Really? [/quote]

At a very basic and ridiculously simplified level yes that is the case.[/quote]

Not even true “at a very basic and ridiculously simplified level.”

You probably know that. Or maybe you don’t. If case you don’t, by any chance have you ever heard of the term “invincible ignorance”?

1078

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

As I have stated elsewhere. The group of people who are being nice because they want to be nice and because they are focussed on this life really should be nicer than the group of people who are only being nice because they are told to by an unseen master so that they can get a reward in the next life.

Of course in reality, nice people are nice, nasty people are nasty and both sets can draw their justification from a number of sources.[/quote]

Are you saying being nice is a predisposition for atheists? That they don’t learn niceness–eventually appreciating ‘nice’ for itself–through authority? I’d argue that almost no one would be ‘nice’ without an authority, at least originally, imparting a lesson. Parents, the meek kid you were bullying for awhile turning around an whooping your behind one day, gossiping only to be caught and humiliated by the victim. I would say every child, and even a good many adults, learns to be nice if only to get by. At first. After that, one might develop an appreciation for niceness, or not. Atheist might not break a law, for instance, because even if he could get away with it, the law is. So, it wouldn’t be the nice thing to do. Or, he may not break the law, because who the heck wants to risk prison?

Your statement does read that athe[/quote]

I think you are misreading me. I am certainly not saying being nice is a preisposition for atheists. There are Dicks and Nice people on both sides of the fence.

1079

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

So the Roman Church is going back to it’s polytheistic roots step by step ;-)[/quote]

I know you jest, but so people do not take this the wrong way, no we are not. We never took Mary as Deity.[/quote]

Face it, your religion is polytheistic (at least as much so as Hinduism) and practices human sacrifice and canibalism.

You can wrap it up in fancy language but at the root, that is what your religions practices are. Not that there is anythign wrong with that ;-)[/quote]

Nay on the polytheistic, and yes on the second two. Are Bible, doctrine, and tradition do not point nor say more than one G-d.[/quote]

Your Bible certainly does in the old testament and the oldest documents it is formed from, your tradition is actually Polythestic. JHW was the war God from a Polytheistic religion. Your doctrine skirts round it with semantics.

1080

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

So the Roman Church is going back to it’s polytheistic roots step by step ;-)[/quote]

I know you jest, but so people do not take this the wrong way, no we are not. We never took Mary as Deity.[/quote]

Face it, your religion is polytheistic (at least as much so as Hinduism) and practices human sacrifice and canibalism.

You can wrap it up in fancy language but at the root, that is what your religions practices are. Not that there is anythign wrong with that ;-)[/quote]

Nay on the polytheistic, and yes on the second two. Are Bible, doctrine, and tradition do not point nor say more than one G-d.[/quote]

Your Bible certainly does in the old testament and the oldest documents it is formed from, your tradition is actually Polythestic. JHW was the war God from a Polytheistic religion. Your doctrine skirts round it with semantics.[/quote]

And pigs can fly.