Misconceptions of Christianity

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1041

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]

Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp[/quote]

I think this sums up the question fairly well:

“Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!”

While this may strengthen the argument that they can actually hear the prayers, it also strengthens the argument that it’s not necessary to ask for intercession because:

“-the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God…They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.” It doesn’t say only after we ask for intercession, rather it seems to be automatic.

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?

I guess I’m wondering what the importance of asking for intercession is if the Saints already aware of our petitions and offer them to God.

[/quote]

This is the same rational that people used to use to say you didn’t need to pray at all, since G-d knows your needs, He will just give you what you need without being asked, &c.

1042

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

I’d say atheistic atrocities are compounded by the pridefullness of atheists who trivialize the oppressed and murdered, by denying why they were oppressed and murdered under their banner.
[/quote]

Atheist system/people (Soviets, China, etc.) by their very nature devalue the human being. The next step of destroying life by the millions is merely a bureaucratic move. [/quote]

That is simply not true. A religion because it believes in an after life actually has less incentive to minimise suffering in the here and now.

If I let you suffer now, the suffering is good for your soul therefore I am helping you. (Mother Theressa had logic that ran along those lines)

If I go and blow myself up taking with me the enemies of my God then I will get my reward in the afterlife.

Neither of those positions would happen in an atheist society where the greater good of the community is all that should be important. (I know that the greater good argument has been horrifically misapplied however it is not the argument that is wrong.)

1043

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]

Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp[/quote]

I think this sums up the question fairly well:

“Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!”

While this may strengthen the argument that they can actually hear the prayers, it also strengthens the argument that it’s not necessary to ask for intercession because:

“-the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God…They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.” It doesn’t say only after we ask for intercession, rather it seems to be automatic.

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?

I guess I’m wondering what the importance of asking for intercession is if the Saints already aware of our petitions and offer them to God.

[/quote]

There is no real answer. Perhaps it is an exercise of community. For the same could be said of our Christian brothers living today. Why do we ask our brothers to pray for our sick child, if my prayers are heard directly by God? [/quote]

Because our earthly brothers and sisters cannot automatically hear our prayers and present them to God, so in this instance, a request is necessary. I feel a community of prayers is stronger than the singular. In any case, as your link says, the Saints will hear the multitude of prayers and present those petitions to God, regardless of a formal request for intercession by a Saint.

[quote]Why must Christ himself anoint a blind man’s eyes with spittle and mud?

Why must an Elder anoint the sick with oil? Why does an Elder even have to be the one doing it?

[/quote]
[/quote]

But if God is all knowing and everywhere why does anyone need to pray. He knows our situation, he knows our needs, he knows our thoughts.

1044

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]

Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp[/quote]

Ok, I finally made it to the end, and I have another question. There are many verses that say to ask other Earthly Christians to pray for you. I have no issue with this, because it was talking about Earthly Christians. There is only one verse in Revelation about the Saints in heaven praying for us, but there are no verses saying we should ask Heavenly Saints to pray for us. I can see how the Catholic Church can jump to this conclusion, but it still does not make it Biblical. Just because the Heavenly Saints over hear our prayers (Revelation scripture) does not mean that our prayers are to be directed to them.

I think the Hebrews 12:22-23 verses used in the article are taken out of context. It is talking about the New Jerusalem which we all know in Revelation is the new Kingdom of God, and not the current Jerusalem. This is after the Judgement of all so all are made righteous in the site of God, if we have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior. By the blood of Christ we are all righteous. By saying people in Heaven are more righteous than me seems a huge stretch.
[/quote]

They are as they are pure. And they are in the New Jerusalem.

[quote]

The two verses in the article that say we should pray with Angels from the OT have nothing to do with asking Saints to pray for us. They are only saying that the Angels should praise the Lord along with us. I have no issue with this, but to jump to conclusions that this means to pray to a Saint is another huge stretch.[/quote]

4th Kings ii. God of Elijah, read that. A reason to ask them for prayer is because you know that they’ll pray for you, they won’t just say they will like some earthy Christians do.

1045

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

So the Roman Church is going back to it’s polytheistic roots step by step ;-)[/quote]

I know you jest, but so people do not take this the wrong way, no we are not. We never took Mary as Deity.[/quote]

Face it, your religion is polytheistic (at least as much so as Hinduism) and practices human sacrifice and canibalism.

You can wrap it up in fancy language but at the root, that is what your religions practices are. Not that there is anythign wrong with that :wink:

1046

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]

Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp[/quote]

I think this sums up the question fairly well:

“Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!”

While this may strengthen the argument that they can actually hear the prayers, it also strengthens the argument that it’s not necessary to ask for intercession because:

“-the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God…They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.” It doesn’t say only after we ask for intercession, rather it seems to be automatic.

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?

I guess I’m wondering what the importance of asking for intercession is if the Saints already aware of our petitions and offer them to God.

[/quote]

There is no real answer. Perhaps it is an exercise of community. For the same could be said of our Christian brothers living today. Why do we ask our brothers to pray for our sick child, if my prayers are heard directly by God? [/quote]

Because our earthly brothers and sisters cannot automatically hear our prayers and present them to God, so in this instance, a request is necessary. I feel a community of prayers is stronger than the singular. In any case, as your link says, the Saints will hear the multitude of prayers and present those petitions to God, regardless of a formal request for intercession by a Saint.

[quote]Why must Christ himself anoint a blind man’s eyes with spittle and mud?

Why must an Elder anoint the sick with oil? Why does an Elder even have to be the one doing it?

[/quote]
[/quote]

Sure but have you ever asked St. Anthony to pray that you find something, wholly molly is intercession awesome and I thank G-d for it. But you still have to give to St. Anthony’s poor.

1047

Meh, I’ll throw this in here if there’s any questions about the ‘all men are priests’ and ‘ministerial priesthood’ thing-a-mabobber.

1048

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/03/31/qa-religious-violence-risks-reputation-of-indias-hyderabad/

http://www.minnpost.com/worldcsm/2010/04/15/17387/in_india_religious_violence_leaves_long_trail_of_refugee_camps

…people kill people for all kinds of reasons. Religion is one of them. Killing people in the name of atheism is not. People were killed because of ideology: e.i. communism or fascism, but not atheism. If you know of an instance were people were killed by an atheist for being a deist or having a belief of any kind, i’d like to know, seriously…[/quote]

Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt. Tell the religious victims they weren’t killed by those claiming atheism. In fact, I’d say atheistic atrocities are compounded by the pridefullness of atheists who trivialize the oppressed and murdered, by denying why they were oppressed and murdered under their banner. At least we get on our knees and pray together for the sins committed by us in the name of Christ. And don’t say we don’t. In fact, we do it very frequently. You guys could learn a little humility.

On a smaller scale, ever heard of Columbine?
[/quote]

…again, and i stress, people killing people in the name of atheism. Give me examples? Not ideology, not stress related, not madness, but purely killings in the name of atheism…

1049

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]

Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp[/quote]

I think this sums up the question fairly well:

“Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!”

While this may strengthen the argument that they can actually hear the prayers, it also strengthens the argument that it’s not necessary to ask for intercession because:

“-the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God…They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.” It doesn’t say only after we ask for intercession, rather it seems to be automatic.

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?

I guess I’m wondering what the importance of asking for intercession is if the Saints already aware of our petitions and offer them to God.

[/quote]

This is the same rational that people used to use to say you didn’t need to pray at all, since G-d knows your needs, He will just give you what you need without being asked, &c.[/quote]

I have never used that rational and disagree with it. And I do feel that prayer is necessary, and praying for others is a good thing and should be done. Which is why we should ask our earthly brothers and sisters to pray for us. And for them to pray on our behalf, we MUST ask, as they won’t readily know our need for it. I’ll say it again, those multitude of prayers will be heard by the Saints regardless of a formal request of intercession. It will happen automatically.

If you will answer the question I asked previously:

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?

1050

[quote]Sloth wrote:
For the Catholic, the Church community isn’t resigned to the earth alone. And being social and finite beings, we approach those in heaven by person, too.

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

[/quote]

Both of these verses are speaking about angels. They do not talk about Humans in Heaven. I am all for telling the Angels to Praise him with me. I just spent an hour in the car listening to Christian Music praising my God on my lunch break. When I type in here I am wanting to glorify God in all my words. I mess up all the time. I wish all Catholics understood the doctrines as well as you all. I personally think you guys are the exception and not the rule.

Even though we disagree on some subjects we are all in the family of God.

CB and Eph you both love hanging out here in these Christian threads so I would like to reach out to you two with a verse. Revelation 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Jesus is reaching out to you two. All you have to do is open the door.

1051

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

4th Kings ii. God of Elijah, read that. A reason to ask them for prayer is because you know that they’ll pray for you, they won’t just say they will like some earthy Christians do.[/quote]

Sorry, but I am not understanding the 4th Kings ii. To us Protestants would the be 2 Kings Chapter 4, or is this one of the apocryphal books?

1052

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
For the Catholic, the Church community isn’t resigned to the earth alone. And being social and finite beings, we approach those in heaven by person, too.

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

[/quote]

Both of these verses are speaking about angels. They do not talk about Humans in Heaven. I am all for telling the Angels to Praise him with me. I just spent an hour in the car listening to Christian Music praising my God on my lunch break. When I type in here I am wanting to glorify God in all my words. I mess up all the time. I wish all Catholics understood the doctrines as well as you all. I personally think you guys are the exception and not the rule.

Even though we disagree on some subjects we are all in the family of God.

CB and Eph you both love hanging out here in these Christian threads so I would like to reach out to you two with a verse. Revelation 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Jesus is reaching out to you two. All you have to do is open the door. [/quote]

…the door was never closed my friend, but nobody came knocking. Instead; silence. I like silence. Silence means peace, clarity and equilibrium. So maybe i don’t share the emotional aspect of your religious experience, for which i care little to be honest, things are as they are. I am that i am…

1053

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/03/31/qa-religious-violence-risks-reputation-of-indias-hyderabad/

http://www.minnpost.com/worldcsm/2010/04/15/17387/in_india_religious_violence_leaves_long_trail_of_refugee_camps

…people kill people for all kinds of reasons. Religion is one of them. Killing people in the name of atheism is not. People were killed because of ideology: e.i. communism or fascism, but not atheism. If you know of an instance were people were killed by an atheist for being a deist or having a belief of any kind, i’d like to know, seriously…[/quote]

Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt. Tell the religious victims they weren’t killed by those claiming atheism. In fact, I’d say atheistic atrocities are compounded by the pridefullness of atheists who trivialize the oppressed and murdered, by denying why they were oppressed and murdered under their banner. At least we get on our knees and pray together for the sins committed by us in the name of Christ. And don’t say we don’t. In fact, we do it very frequently. You guys could learn a little humility.

On a smaller scale, ever heard of Columbine?
[/quote]

…again, and i stress, people killing people in the name of atheism. Give me examples? Not ideology, not stress related, not madness, but purely killings in the name of atheism…
[/quote]

Don’t be cute, I have. If you’d like to hold fast to your caveats, I will simply adopt them. Christ did not instruct his church to kill in his name. Therefore, all killings done by the Church, in his name, are bouts of madness, stress, and the infection of an outside ideology (such as a nation’s wish to colonize or seize resources). But, such instances are not inherent to the faith itself. See, I put up force-fields too! Neeeener, neener!

Or, we could look at how you just tried to phrase the question. You’ve just implied that there is only one true atheist faith. That there are dogmas besides that of a non-belief in a diety. Therefore, you can add caveats in order to dismiss the actions of those brutal atheists, by implying that they are…excommunicated from the full communion of atheism. An odd avenue to take, ephrem.

1054

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…again, and i stress, people killing people in the name of atheism. Give me examples? Not ideology, not stress related, not madness, but purely killings in the name of atheism…
[/quote]

aye - but see, you had to add all sorts of caveats to your request . . . when one does not have a religious ideology - it is replaced with another ideology . . . thus any ideology based on the absence of religion would qualify . . .

everyone killed in russia from 19-teens through 1990 . . . just a few . . .

1055

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
For the Catholic, the Church community isn’t resigned to the earth alone. And being social and finite beings, we approach those in heaven by person, too.

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

[/quote]

Both of these verses are speaking about angels. They do not talk about Humans in Heaven. I am all for telling the Angels to Praise him with me. I just spent an hour in the car listening to Christian Music praising my God on my lunch break. When I type in here I am wanting to glorify God in all my words. I mess up all the time. I wish all Catholics understood the doctrines as well as you all. I personally think you guys are the exception and not the rule.

Even though we disagree on some subjects we are all in the family of God.

CB and Eph you both love hanging out here in these Christian threads so I would like to reach out to you two with a verse. Revelation 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Jesus is reaching out to you two. All you have to do is open the door. [/quote]

…the door was never closed my friend, but nobody came knocking. Instead; silence. I like silence. Silence means peace, clarity and equilibrium. So maybe i don’t share the emotional aspect of your religious experience, for which i care little to be honest, things are as they are. I am that i am…
[/quote]

God comes with a still small voice. I am just giving you an opportunity to listen. He is calling you.

1056

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …the door was never closed my friend, but nobody came knocking. Instead; silence. I like silence. Silence means peace, clarity and equilibrium. So maybe i don’t share the emotional aspect of your religious experience, for which i care little to be honest, things are as they are. I am that i am…
[/quote]Can we get a little organ music folks? ;-]

1057

[quote]cueball wrote:

If you will answer the question I asked previously:

Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?
[/quote]

“[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

1058

Some early thoughts.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

1059

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …the door was never closed my friend, but nobody came knocking. Instead; silence. I like silence. Silence means peace, clarity and equilibrium. So maybe i don’t share the emotional aspect of your religious experience, for which i care little to be honest, things are as they are. I am that i am…
[/quote]Can we get a little organ music folks? ;-]
[/quote]

…well, i thought that was quite eloquent actually, lol…

1060

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
For the Catholic, the Church community isn’t resigned to the earth alone. And being social and finite beings, we approach those in heaven by person, too.

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

[/quote]

Both of these verses are speaking about angels. They do not talk about Humans in Heaven. I am all for telling the Angels to Praise him with me. I just spent an hour in the car listening to Christian Music praising my God on my lunch break. When I type in here I am wanting to glorify God in all my words. I mess up all the time. I wish all Catholics understood the doctrines as well as you all. I personally think you guys are the exception and not the rule.

Even though we disagree on some subjects we are all in the family of God.

CB and Eph you both love hanging out here in these Christian threads so I would like to reach out to you two with a verse. Revelation 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Jesus is reaching out to you two. All you have to do is open the door. [/quote]

…the door was never closed my friend, but nobody came knocking. Instead; silence. I like silence. Silence means peace, clarity and equilibrium. So maybe i don’t share the emotional aspect of your religious experience, for which i care little to be honest, things are as they are. I am that i am…
[/quote]

God comes with a still small voice. I am just giving you an opportunity to listen. He is calling you.[/quote]

…thank you…