So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]
Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.
Work with me here because I am going to slowly work through the article. The article mentions that all the saints, which means all beleivers that have gone before us. To me it is one thing to offer up a prayer to God, and then one Saint, a beleiver that has died before me, picks up the line to hear the prayer, and then go to God and petition for us. To me there is a difference in praying to God, and a Saint hearing the prayer, then to direct a prayer at a particular Saint or Mary, and not directly to God. This seems to me that what is being said is the Saints, chosen by the Catholic Church, and Mary have more pull with God, or that they are better than the other Saints, believers who have gone before us, then there is an issue. The article kind of skips over this.
The part about different languages so the Saints can not understand to me is crap. God gives the gift of tounges to people so why not all the Saints that have gone before us not have the ability to speak in tounges.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The mountains of extra biblical superstition and the nearly comprehensive history of utterly grotesque and flagrant sin are 2 sides of the same coin. They together testify to the unholy nature of that church as an institution and her wholesale lack of spiritual power and authority in the earth. [/quote]
Okay, is this the heart of your problem with the Church? [/quote]
LOL!!! Uhhhhh… Yeah? LOL!!! Katz says [quote]"is THAT all??? well bless yer little ol heart and I thought it was sumthin serious[/quote]LOL!!!
…people kill people for all kinds of reasons. Religion is one of them. Killing people in the name of atheism is not. People were killed because of ideology: e.i. communism or fascism, but not atheism. If you know of an instance were people were killed by an atheist for being a deist or having a belief of any kind, i’d like to know, seriously…[/quote]
Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt. Tell the religious victims they weren’t killed by those claiming atheism. In fact, I’d say atheistic atrocities are compounded by the pridefullness of atheists who trivialize the oppressed and murdered, by denying why they were oppressed and murdered under their banner. At least we get on our knees and pray together for the sins committed by us in the name of Christ. And don’t say we don’t. In fact, we do it very frequently. You guys could learn a little humility.
So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]
Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.
“Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!”
While this may strengthen the argument that they can actually hear the prayers, it also strengthens the argument that it’s not necessary to ask for intercession because:
“-the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God…They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.” It doesn’t say only after we ask for intercession, rather it seems to be automatic.
Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?
I guess I’m wondering what the importance of asking for intercession is if the Saints already aware of our petitions and offer them to God.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The mountains of extra biblical superstition and the nearly comprehensive history of utterly grotesque and flagrant sin are 2 sides of the same coin. They together testify to the unholy nature of that church as an institution and her wholesale lack of spiritual power and authority in the earth. [/quote]
Okay, is this the heart of your problem with the Church? [/quote]
LOL!!! Uhhhhh… Yeah? LOL!!! Katz says [quote]"is THAT all??? well bless yer little ol heart and I thought it was sumthin serious[/quote]LOL!!!
Sorry man, I mean no harm. I’m jist funnin ya.[/quote]
Wait a second Trib! LOL!!! I NEVER said I agreed with your characterization. I’m trying to acertain what you believe, essentially, to be the problem with the Church.
I’d say atheistic atrocities are compounded by the pridefullness of atheists who trivialize the oppressed and murdered, by denying why they were oppressed and murdered under their banner.
[/quote]
Atheist system/people (Soviets, China, etc.) by their very nature devalue the human being. The next step of destroying life by the millions is merely a bureaucratic move.
So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]
Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.
Ok, I finally made it to the end, and I have another question. There are many verses that say to ask other Earthly Christians to pray for you. I have no issue with this, because it was talking about Earthly Christians. There is only one verse in Revelation about the Saints in heaven praying for us, but there are no verses saying we should ask Heavenly Saints to pray for us. I can see how the Catholic Church can jump to this conclusion, but it still does not make it Biblical. Just because the Heavenly Saints over hear our prayers (Revelation scripture) does not mean that our prayers are to be directed to them.
I think the Hebrews 12:22-23 verses used in the article are taken out of context. It is talking about the New Jerusalem which we all know in Revelation is the new Kingdom of God, and not the current Jerusalem. This is after the Judgement of all so all are made righteous in the site of God, if we have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior. By the blood of Christ we are all righteous. By saying people in Heaven are more righteous than me seems a huge stretch.
The two verses in the article that say we should pray with Angels from the OT have nothing to do with asking Saints to pray for us. They are only saying that the Angels should praise the Lord along with us. I have no issue with this, but to jump to conclusions that this means to pray to a Saint is another huge stretch.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The mountains of extra biblical superstition and the nearly comprehensive history of utterly grotesque and flagrant sin are 2 sides of the same coin. They together testify to the unholy nature of that church as an institution and her wholesale lack of spiritual power and authority in the earth. [/quote]
Okay, is this the heart of your problem with the Church? [/quote]
LOL!!! Uhhhhh… Yeah? LOL!!! Katz says [quote]"is THAT all??? well bless yer little ol heart and I thought it was sumthin serious[/quote]LOL!!!
Sorry man, I mean no harm. I’m jist funnin ya.[/quote]
Wait a second Trib! LOL!!! I NEVER said I agreed with your characterization. I’m trying to acertain what you believe, essentially, to be the problem with the Church. [/quote]
I apologize for any part I may have played in inducing this kind of reaction in you. It was not my intent. The way your post was written just struck me funny.
I am really trying to understand where you all are coming from. As Protestants we think about what God did through Mary every Christmas. The Birth of Christ. The issue we as Protestants have is it seems like many Catholics take the Mary thing to the nth degree. When a picture of Mary shows up on a grilled cheese sandwhich (hyperbole but you know what I mean) people bow down to it. They may not be worshipping the grilled cheese sandwhich but there is definitely a portion of Catholics that think Mary is a supernatural being and she is reveling herself in the grilled cheese sandwhich.[/quote]
No, you have it wrong, it is still G-d’s miracle.
I think you need to learn a little more about supernatural things, because things in Heaven, Angels, Archangels, Principalities, Dominions, &c are supernatural things that have powers through G-d. And we still think that St. Mary is a friend, albeit closer friend than normal, to G-d and will have time advantage over us when we ask her to pray for us than when we pray for just ourselves, and the Bible asks us to ask others to pray for us, and since the Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints, that means the Saints can hear us since they are restricted by natural hearing.
Blessed are the poor in spirit:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
But she can pray right? She was close to G-d, like I said she was Full of Grace, she was always with G-d. And she can still ask her Son to do things for us, after she did ask Him to turn water into wine.
Faith of a mustard seed can move mountains, I am sure she had the faith of a mustard seed. However, you arguing against a straw man, we never said she has these wonderful powers. We just said that she can ask her Son to do stuff on our behalf.
[quote]
If she had these powers why would Jesus ask the favored apostle to take care of her.[/quote]
My mom is an entrepreneur, she has been a single mother, taken care of me and my brother until I was 12, she owns her own house and takes care of her ex-husband while he lays in the hospital bed, she grew up in an abusive house and has been thrown in jail multiple times and has dealt with alcoholic husbands, druggy boyfriends, and a husband that shot and killed himself. When I leave town, I still ask my friends to watch after my mother, even though you know she can pretty much take care of that whole town by herself.
She isn’t, we just honor her more than the other Saints, because as you said above, he asked His friends to take care of her. She is our G-d’s mother.
I think the real question is what kind of person has a problem with honoring someone’s mother, just because they are that person’s mother. If you walked into a friend’s house and ignored their mother, I doubt they would appreciate that. I know if you walk in my house, you better pay your respects to my whole family.
Because He can, he can through stones if he wishes. Or is G-d limited in his ability, is there something he cannot do?
I’ll take Our Lady of Guadalupe, biggest conversion known to man. Turned the Aztecs away from their G-d and turned it to Jesus.
I hope one day you see an appearance, because when you do. The whole idea of bowing down, and God or an Angel asking us why we are afraid makes sense, because it is a traumatic event.
[quote]He has angels to be his messengers and in the Bible that is all he used was Angels.
You all see where we are coming from?[/quote]
He used Moses as a messenger? He used the dead bones of Elias? He can use stones if He wishes.
So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]
Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.
“Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!”
While this may strengthen the argument that they can actually hear the prayers, it also strengthens the argument that it’s not necessary to ask for intercession because:
“-the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God…They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.” It doesn’t say only after we ask for intercession, rather it seems to be automatic.
Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?
I guess I’m wondering what the importance of asking for intercession is if the Saints already aware of our petitions and offer them to God.
[/quote]
This what I was trying to say. Cue you are better at getting across your thoughts than I am.
So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]
Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.
“Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!”
While this may strengthen the argument that they can actually hear the prayers, it also strengthens the argument that it’s not necessary to ask for intercession because:
“-the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God…They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.” It doesn’t say only after we ask for intercession, rather it seems to be automatic.
Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?
I guess I’m wondering what the importance of asking for intercession is if the Saints already aware of our petitions and offer them to God.
[/quote]
There is no real answer. Perhaps it is an exercise of community. For the same could be said of our Christian brothers living today. Why do we ask our brothers to pray for our sick child, if my prayers are heard directly by God?
Why must Christ himself anoint a blind man’s eyes with spittle and mud?
Why must an Elder anoint the sick with oil? Why does an Elder even have to be the one doing it?
So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]
Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.
“Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!”
While this may strengthen the argument that they can actually hear the prayers, it also strengthens the argument that it’s not necessary to ask for intercession because:
“-the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God…They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.” It doesn’t say only after we ask for intercession, rather it seems to be automatic.
Do you feel that asking directly for intercession by the Saints will make the prayer more likely to be met? Or another way, do you feel God looks upon prayers where intercession was asked for as more worthy of recognition than those directed straight to Him?
I guess I’m wondering what the importance of asking for intercession is if the Saints already aware of our petitions and offer them to God.
[/quote]
There is no real answer. Perhaps it is an exercise of community. For the same could be said of our Christian brothers living today. Why do we ask our brothers to pray for our sick child, if my prayers are heard directly by God? [/quote]
Because our earthly brothers and sisters cannot automatically hear our prayers and present them to God, so in this instance, a request is necessary. I feel a community of prayers is stronger than the singular. In any case, as your link says, the Saints will hear the multitude of prayers and present those petitions to God, regardless of a formal request for intercession by a Saint.
[quote]Why must Christ himself anoint a blind man’s eyes with spittle and mud?
Why must an Elder anoint the sick with oil? Why does an Elder even have to be the one doing it?
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
<<< Trib, I have a lot I’d like to say to all that - as much as I respect you, I personally think you’re misunderstanding a great deal. For example, its simply a historical fact that the Church and doctrine were in existence before the Gospels were written, and certainly before the Holy Bible was assembled. Where do you think the Gospels and Bible came from? However, I really don’t want to fan the flames any more. I prolly already have. LOL.
Let me instead say this: the book I mentioned is not speculative theology; it is a fascinating account of what is not only strongly pre-figured via Old Testament typology (which I’d think you’d really like; it’s really quite beautiful & amazing), but finds its roots in the very first moments of the Church, and is given passionate expression by the very early Church Fathers.
“What He bestowed on Mary in the Flesh, He has bestowed on the Church in the Spirit: Mary gave birth to the One, and the Church gives birth to the Many, who through the One become one.” ~ St. Augustine. >>>[/quote]
And I respect you guys too, I do, as tough as that may be to believe in light of what I’ve said. This is exactly why I put this off and the thing that Sloth had greatly feared has come upon us. I’ve read all this. I know about the catholic interpretations concerning Mary and OT types. I know about the early church, especially guys like Irenaeus. I know about Augustine and his Mary friendly statements. So have untold millions of other believers.
It’s not that we simply haven’t given roman catholicism a fair hearing whether intentionally or not and if we could just be put in possession of the right piece of information we’d see the light. At least in my case Rome is it’s own worst witness. The mountains of extra biblical superstition and the nearly comprehensive history of utterly grotesque and flagrant sin are 2 sides of the same coin. They together testify to the unholy nature of that church as an institution and her wholesale lack of spiritual power and authority in the earth. It is only by the unsearchable depths of the grace and mercy of God that any man joining himself to such a church can be saved in and in spite of her. AND hopefully eventually delivered out of her. Not through her if I may disagree with Dmaddox on that point.[/quote]
Haha, how non-biblical this is. I find it funny though, that the Catholic Church that is the only Church that since Jesus, transcends time, country, ethnicity. So we are the only Church that is actually catholic. If anyone disagree with one bit of Catholic doctrine they are not Catholic, so we are the only Church that is one, as universal doctrine and the Bible is the same for all inside the church. We are the only Church created by Jesus, Himself. We are the only church with Apostolic origins and beliefs.
The rest are do not transcend from Jesus, you all broke from the Church. You all have different leaders in different countries. So, not catholic. You do not have one head that tells everyone that is a Calvinist how things are supposed to go and even in your own denominations locally you have disagreement. So, not one. Everyone’s else church was started by a man not Jesus. Your beliefs and origins come from rebellious men, not the apostles.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I’d like to make some request of my protestant pals of perpetual Pontiff pulverizing.
Don’t pass on rumors, then when corrected, make up a future where it would be true.
Do not claim to know the hearts and minds of man as if you were God. When I tell you I do not pray through an icon, do not tell me I do. When I honor a saint, or ask for their prayers, do not tell me I am giving them the adoration reserved for God. To claim that I do is to claim that you have awareness of my inner thoughts. If you want to discuss our practices do not claim Catholic-mind reading abilities. For now on, if someone’s argument starts on that sort of premise–that you know the nature of our inner thought–the question will be ignored by myself. [/quote]
Because our earthly brothers and sisters cannot automatically hear our prayers and present them to God, so in this instance, a request is necessary. I feel a community of prayers is stronger than the singular. In any case, as your link says, the Saints will hear the multitude of prayers and present those petitions to God, regardless of a formal request for intercession by a Saint.
[/quote]
But if the objection is the ability of the Saints to directly and automatically hear our prayers, addressed to them or not, why do we even ask for prayers at all? God will also hear our prayers directly and automatically.
We ask others because we are finite, personal, and social beings. It is a practice of community. For the Catholic, the Church community isn’t resigned to the earth alone. And being social and finite beings, we approach those in heaven by person, too.
“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21).
And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I’d like to make some request of my protestant pals of perpetual Pontiff pulverizing.
Don’t pass on rumors, then when corrected, make up a future where it would be true.
Do not claim to know the hearts and minds of man as if you were God. When I tell you I do not pray through an icon, do not tell me I do. When I honor a saint, or ask for their prayers, do not tell me I am giving them the adoration reserved for God. To claim that I do is to claim that you have awareness of my inner thoughts. If you want to discuss our practices do not claim Catholic-mind reading abilities. For now on, if someone’s argument starts on that sort of premise–that you know the nature of our inner thought–the question will be ignored by myself. [/quote]
Will do. I just have an issue with taking direction from the Pope as being equal with the Holy Scriptures. If it is scripurally based I have zero issues, but not scripturally based then I take issue.
I do not mind you respecting the Saints that have gone before us, and learning from them. I would like to say that you, Brother Chris, and Katz are very good Catholic Brothers. I welcome your knowledge. IMO it is the people that call themselves Catholic, but do not understand what it means to be one. For Example, I started asking people several years ago if they were Christian. When they said, “Yes I follow Christ but I go to Catholic Church,” to me they were beleivers in Jesus. If they said, “No I am not a Christian I am Catholic,” to me that meant they followed the Chruch and not Christ. There are both Catholics and Protestants that go to church on Easter and Christmas only. I take a real issue with that. You either follow Christ or you do not. There is no middle ground.[/quote]
Don’t worry I’m at Church at 9:00 everyday.
It is all about Jesus, if it was not for Jesus. Mary really would not matter.
No, but you have been to Mass. In Mass who do we pray to, who are we celebrating, what are we celebrating? Who do we ask to hear our prayers?
Even praying a rosary, we are praying to G-d. When you do the LOTH, you are praying to G-d.
[quote]
God wants to walk with us. To walk with us means to talk with us. Go to God first. When I ask people to pray for me it is so they know my struggles and will try to share the load with me. They will ask me how I am doing the next time they see me. It lets me know that someone is walking a mile in my shoes. I do not think they have a better connection to God. I agree that at least you 3 guys do not worship Mary or the Saints. I believe that is the teaching of the Church.
[quote]
There is some good Catholic resources on prayer, and the different kinds of prayer. Only two kind are directed at the Saints, one is intercession. The rest are prayers G-d.
There is different kinds of worship, but basically the three different kinds break down to three modern English terms. Adore, honor, and more than honor.
I do have a question. Why do you ask Mary and the Saints to pray for you?[/quote]
Because I am sure they have connection with G-d, and that they will actually pray for me.
…who are the godless parties in this current conflict?
[/quote]
Technically all of them as I am sure our religious brethren will inform us.[/quote]
…well, if reality had any meaning to those people we wouldn’t have religion in the first place…
[/quote]
Even for you that was embarrsingly lame ephrem. [/quote]
…and yet it’s true. If this life had as much value as heaven holds for religious folks, things might be different…
[/quote]
Atheism didn’t stop state atheists from their own deeds. Enough with the Atheism of Peace message. No one is buying it.[/quote]
You are looking at it the wrong way round. Groups of people are typically pretty nasty to other groups of people. Power has a corrupting influence. Whether people grab on to Religion to use as an Excuse or Atheism. The cause is not the faith or lack of it, it is human nature.
The reason that the religious try to throw up State Atheism as the biggest butcher is that firstly they wrongly include a number of religiously motivated individuals and groups as being atheist, and secondly some of the truly atheist groups just so happened to have larger populations to murder. This was due to the timing in history more than being any product of lack of religion.[/quote]
Haha, that is a crock of shit. Who is going to be more charitable to another group of people, people that are required by their G-d to charitable to all people, or a group that believes there is no after life so what we do in this life does not matter, because if we die, it is all over anyway.
So then why are they so special? Why do you just not ask us to pray for you. Why are they better than you or me? Do they have a direct line to God that you or I do not? We are all considered Saints. As in the Apostles Creed, the communion of Saints, all this means is to have fellowship with your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Why are they better?[/quote]
Just because I’m taking a break from writing my own wordy posts, read this a few times.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yep, I am going to tell you that. We do not pray through them. We show our respects and honor great people of the Church. And we do use earthly items in our observances, because well, we have earthly bodies and senses. Man builds statues to remember, recall, and honor their respected. >>>[/quote Forget statues and relics, if I was wrong not one family would feel the want to own a camera, even. >>>[/quote] I just quoted you the official canons from your greatest of all ecumenical councils wherein it is clearly stated that the prostration of oneself before relics refers you to the prototype it represents. Whatever else YOU may do, I’m reporting what THAT says. AND the reason you give for using them is exactly the reason NOT TO. We are commanded to live not according to the flesh, but to worship God in spirit and truth. That’s the point. Man does indeed build all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons and always has. Look brother, No protestant claims great benefits from God through photography. If they did, I would write the first piece condemning them as idolaters and calling them to repentance. [quote]Sloth wrote: Protestants wouldn’t clutch the bible to them while praying. Yes, the bible is an earthly object, yet protestants in their meditations will often kneel with it firmly grasped in hand, even kissing it. Do they pray through the bible? The physical earthly book before them? Do protestants despise Passion Plays, the nativity scene during Christmas, the fish/Jesus Icon?[/quote] I don’t personally do passion plays, christmas, nativity scenes or Jesus fish. However, protestants who do participate in these things do not do them as part of their formal service to God and heaven as catholics do with their saints and relics. Also, the bible is the written word of God, but even then none of the inadvertent motions you cite are even vaguely equivalent to the codified and allegedly efficacious dogma of Rome. [quote]Sloth wrote:I’ll play the game, too. I will refuse to accept what is told to me about the private inner thought of the protestant, by the protestant. I will instead claim that they believe they are praying THROUGH the bible, a physical object, to God. I, yes I, will determine the inner thoughts of the Protestant. There, now we both claim psychic powers. It’s an unfair advantage the protestant makes use of, but I intend to borrow it.[/quote] I answered this already, but will here add that if you are NOT using these “holy” objects to “refer” you to their prototypes then you stand condemned by your own church. I’m not addicted to the phraseology of “praying through” either. Call it… whatever, it’s using physical objects in the worship of/prayer to (ok, dulia) dead people.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
<<< How are untold volumes written on Adam Smith? Lincoln? Washington? Does the protestant object? But, whole volumes can’t be written about the most blessed of all women? I don’t even understand the line of thinking. Does the American evangelical raise up the founding fathers, and other Americans figures, as people to be honored and respected in word and image, while arguing that the blessed of all women is nothing more that a passing moment in history? Yikes.[/quote] You really need get this squared away in yer mind once and for all. Nothing in any way related to historical figures, no matter how great and significant has anything to do with sacred service to God or heaven. No evangelical I have ever known would prostrate themselves before or kiss ANY piece of historical Americana while talking to a very dead Samuel Adams. I do hereby formally denounce this completely non existent straw man in advance just in case any Christian falls into it in the future. Your church holds under pain of condemnation that these practices are to be upheld as pleasing service to God and as a means of divine blessing to men. NONE of the non catholic observances (American history, photography etc) you have here mentioned are even roughly analogous. I’m promising you even our pagan pals see this much. [quote]Sloth wrote:
<<< Sorry, but we believe the Church is made up of the earthy and the heavenly congregation. >>>[/quote]So do we (at least I) >>> [quote]Sloth wrote:We have no problem asking our church members to pray for us. >>>
[/quote]Neither do we except we prefer they be alive in this world since their is no evidence God wants or expects us to invoke the favors of those who have gone on to be with the Lord. Or once again that they are even aware of what’s happening in this world. There are a couple of very rare and special instances in the bible which I suspect I may be hearing about, but they do not establish anything like this practice.
[/quote]