Misconceptions of Christianity

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
641

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…thank you, that was clarifying. Suffice to say that this belief merely reaffirms the insanity of religion for me. How you, as a clearly intelligent person, can devote yourself to such beliefs is still baffling to me. But that horse has been beaten enough, so let’s not go there again…[/quote]Once again it has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with intelligence or the lack thereof.

[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< But if what you say is true i just hope i have enough time to slap god silly for being such a dick before i burn for ever… >>>[/quote]I sincerely hope and pray (I actually really do) that the judgment seat of Christ will not find you on the wrong side of His blood. If however my prayer for you is answered in the negative I assure you the God who commands light to exist and constantly knows the precise number of atoms in the universe will be entirely unimpressed with your assessment. He promises that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. In my case it will be a joyous occasion. I will continue to ask that it be for you as well.
[/quote]

…a father that only loves you if you do what he commands of you, and punishes you for all eternity if you don’t, is an abusive parent unfit of my adoration and love. I do appreciate your best intentions though, and i wish you well…
[/quote]

Prodigal Son, ask for forgiveness. :)[/quote]

…what for? I haven’t done anything wrong…

642

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< Organized religion (and I’m talking about all religions) relies on psychological manipulation that borders on emotional abuse. >>>[/quote]Out of curiosity, who do you figure is so manipulating and abusing me?
[/quote]

It’s internal. I PMed ephrem a link to a video series by a psychologist, who is an atheist, who has analogized religious doctrine to a computer virus. He notes that all of the world’s major religions (even Buddhism, he says) have very strict rules about sex. And he’s not talking about the rules that actually hurt someone, such as “don’t rape,” but rules about practices that hurt no one - a victimless crime. He uses masturbation as an example. This act hurts no other person. Yet every religion prohibits it. Why? Because everyone is going to do it at some point in their lives, and if we’re talking about teenage boys, we’re talking about a near-daily activity, sometimes more than once. Sexual tension builds up, the teenage boy (if he is very religious) may try his best not to think “dirty” thoughts, read his Bible, pray, whatever, but eventually something will give and he’ll go rub one out. In his mind he has violated “God’s law” and feels extremely guilty. To assuage his guilt, he goes to church (perhaps to confession if he is Catholic) and asks for forgiveness. He’ll generally get forgiveness, or some form of it, and off he goes. The cycle repeats itself. This guilt cycle, which has been implanted in the brain by priests, is what keeps most people from rejecting religion. It is emotionally abusive because it causes intense feelings of guilt, perhaps even feelings of depression, for no good reason other than to force people to remain with a particular religion.

This is just one method. There are also various hypnotic techniques that preachers use to get people to feel as if the spirit has descended upon them.

643

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< It’s internal. I PMed ephrem a link to a video series by a psychologist, who is an atheist, who has analogized religious doctrine to a computer virus. He notes that all of the world’s major religions (even Buddhism, he says) have very strict rules about sex. And he’s not talking about the rules that actually hurt someone, such as “don’t rape,” but rules about practices that hurt no one - a victimless crime. He uses masturbation as an example. This act hurts no other person. Yet every religion prohibits it. Why? Because everyone is going to do it at some point in their lives, and if we’re talking about teenage boys, we’re talking about a near-daily activity, sometimes more than once. Sexual tension builds up, the teenage boy (if he is very religious) may try his best not to think “dirty” thoughts, read his Bible, pray, whatever, but eventually something will give and he’ll go rub one out. In his mind he has violated “God’s law” and feels extremely guilty. To assuage his guilt, he goes to church (perhaps to confession if he is Catholic) and asks for forgiveness. He’ll generally get forgiveness, or some form of it, and off he goes. The cycle repeats itself. This guilt cycle, which has been implanted in the brain by priests, is what keeps most people from rejecting religion. It is emotionally abusive because it causes intense feelings of guilt, perhaps even feelings of depression, for no good reason other than to force people to remain with a particular religion.

This is just one method. There are also various hypnotic techniques that preachers use to get people to feel as if the spirit has descended upon them. [/quote]

You are a classic my friend. If I were independently wealthy I’d foot the bill to get a bunch of us here in the same room with a recording crew. It would be the best resource for teaching the reformed doctrines of grace to Arminian doubters ever.

644

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< Organized religion (and I’m talking about all religions) relies on psychological manipulation that borders on emotional abuse. >>>[/quote]Out of curiosity, who do you figure is so manipulating and abusing me?
[/quote]

It’s internal. I PMed ephrem a link to a video series by a psychologist, who is an atheist, who has analogized religious doctrine to a computer virus. He notes that all of the world’s major religions (even Buddhism, he says) have very strict rules about sex. And he’s not talking about the rules that actually hurt someone, such as “don’t rape,” but rules about practices that hurt no one - a victimless crime. He uses masturbation as an example. This act hurts no other person. Yet every religion prohibits it. Why? Because everyone is going to do it at some point in their lives, and if we’re talking about teenage boys, we’re talking about a near-daily activity, sometimes more than once. Sexual tension builds up, the teenage boy (if he is very religious) may try his best not to think “dirty” thoughts, read his Bible, pray, whatever, but eventually something will give and he’ll go rub one out. In his mind he has violated “God’s law” and feels extremely guilty. To assuage his guilt, he goes to church (perhaps to confession if he is Catholic) and asks for forgiveness. He’ll generally get forgiveness, or some form of it, and off he goes. The cycle repeats itself. This guilt cycle, which has been implanted in the brain by priests, is what keeps most people from rejecting religion. It is emotionally abusive because it causes intense feelings of guilt, perhaps even feelings of depression, for no good reason other than to force people to remain with a particular religion.

This is just one method. There are also various hypnotic techniques that preachers use to get people to feel as if the spirit has descended upon them. [/quote]

Rofl.

645

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a father that only loves you if you do what he commands of you, and punishes you for all eternity if you don’t, is an abusive parent unfit of my adoration and love. I do appreciate your best intentions though, and i wish you well…
[/quote]

Organized religion (and I’m talking about all religions) relies on psychological manipulation that borders on emotional abuse. It tells you that you are bad and worthless, suppresses critical thought, and instills guilt. But it also tells you that if you stick with the religion you will ultimately be forgiven and loved. It’s similar to how an abusive spouse operates. Many people ask why a woman (although men can also be victims of spousal abuse) would remain with an abusive spouse. Because after the woman gets beaten and told she is worthless (in religion we are told that we are all sinners), the guy then switches gears and tells her that he really does love her (but God really does love you), that he really needs her to love him and accept him because he is the way he is (God is the way God is and you cannot question God’s nature) because of a bad childhood or whatever (this is a guilt mechanism, and religions have tons of ways of making you feel guilty), that he promises to change and get counseling, and that although it may take some time to go through counseling, “some day” he will be the best husband ever (even though there may be some bad times ahead for you, just believe in what our religion and some day you will get to heaven and experience eternal peace and love). Some spouses are able to leave the abusive relationship. Some remain and continue to get beaten. Some remain and die at the hands of their abuser. Sounds a lot like religion.[/quote]

You should probably pick up a Catechism and read, the things you say are not even close to the truth. [/quote]

Is there a good online Catechism? I’ll willingly read it as I have an interest in religious thought and belief if for no other reason than to know what I’m up against. Remember, though, that I was raised Catholic and even went to a Catholic school, and the notion that I was a “sinner” was firmly implanted in my head at a young age. You can argue that this wasn’t quite right, that perhaps I misinterpreted something (I was 8 years old at the time so critical thinking and logic were not my strongest qualities), that perhaps they should have stressed more the redeeming nature of Christ, and all that. That’s fine, but the reality was that for the longest time I felt I was a bad person. Religion did nothing good for me. Now, before you go and say that I turned away from God because of a bad experience, no, that’s not why. I was willing to give organized religion another shot - I heard that the Episcopalians were pretty mellow and I was even thinking of going back to the Catholic Church on the theory that as a mature adult, I could focus more on the positive aspects and less on the negative. But the impediment is still the same - there is no verifiable evidence of the existence of a supreme being, and any evidence that might suggest that a supreme being exists most certainly does not support the idea that this being is anything like the one mentioned in the major religion’s of the world.[/quote]

Yes, we are all sinners (well besides two), however there is no such thing as a bad person, at least not in eyes of the Catholic Church. I am sorry that people made you feel as if you were not worthy, however they forget that they are no more worthy than you. They should have instead shown mercy and charity.

The conversion of people is, well, on the shoulders of the Holy Ghost.

However, this is the Catechism I use.

You can go to the External Links and find the Catechism.

646

…the problem with the God-virus approach is that the patients don’t realise they’re sick, or that they’re being manipulated. In fact, they sincerely believe that their faith is truth, and that everyone else is wrong. A muslim believes a christian is wrong for the same reason a christian believes a muslim is wrong, when both are just as caught up in a delusion [imo]…

647

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…thank you, that was clarifying. Suffice to say that this belief merely reaffirms the insanity of religion for me. How you, as a clearly intelligent person, can devote yourself to such beliefs is still baffling to me. But that horse has been beaten enough, so let’s not go there again…[/quote]Once again it has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with intelligence or the lack thereof.

[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< But if what you say is true i just hope i have enough time to slap god silly for being such a dick before i burn for ever… >>>[/quote]I sincerely hope and pray (I actually really do) that the judgment seat of Christ will not find you on the wrong side of His blood. If however my prayer for you is answered in the negative I assure you the God who commands light to exist and constantly knows the precise number of atoms in the universe will be entirely unimpressed with your assessment. He promises that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. In my case it will be a joyous occasion. I will continue to ask that it be for you as well.
[/quote]

…a father that only loves you if you do what he commands of you, and punishes you for all eternity if you don’t, is an abusive parent unfit of my adoration and love. I do appreciate your best intentions though, and i wish you well…
[/quote]

Prodigal Son, ask for forgiveness. :)[/quote]

…what for? I haven’t done anything wrong…
[/quote]

The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. The rest you won’t be punished for if you do not commit that one.

648

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< Organized religion (and I’m talking about all religions) relies on psychological manipulation that borders on emotional abuse. >>>[/quote]Out of curiosity, who do you figure is so manipulating and abusing me?
[/quote]

It’s internal. I PMed ephrem a link to a video series by a psychologist, who is an atheist, who has analogized religious doctrine to a computer virus. He notes that all of the world’s major religions (even Buddhism, he says) have very strict rules about sex. And he’s not talking about the rules that actually hurt someone, such as “don’t rape,” but rules about practices that hurt no one - a victimless crime. He uses masturbation as an example. This act hurts no other person. Yet every religion prohibits it. Why? Because everyone is going to do it at some point in their lives, and if we’re talking about teenage boys, we’re talking about a near-daily activity, sometimes more than once. Sexual tension builds up, the teenage boy (if he is very religious) may try his best not to think “dirty” thoughts, read his Bible, pray, whatever, but eventually something will give and he’ll go rub one out. In his mind he has violated “God’s law” and feels extremely guilty. To assuage his guilt, he goes to church (perhaps to confession if he is Catholic) and asks for forgiveness. He’ll generally get forgiveness, or some form of it, and off he goes. The cycle repeats itself. This guilt cycle, which has been implanted in the brain by priests, is what keeps most people from rejecting religion. It is emotionally abusive because it causes intense feelings of guilt, perhaps even feelings of depression, for no good reason other than to force people to remain with a particular religion.

This is just one method. There are also various hypnotic techniques that preachers use to get people to feel as if the spirit has descended upon them. [/quote]

I’m sorry but this is a crock of shit. So there is a conspiracy of preachers to get people to feel as if the spirit has descended upon them?

So we just came up with discernment, and understanding when the spirit is actually with you and when it is just feelings, because we are trying to trick people? Interesting.

And what is that purpose? So they can have more people sit in church on Sunday? So they can have more socials? So people will pray more decades, light more candles, or be more devout? Join an Order? Give more to Charity? Join a Fraternity?

649

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the problem with the God-virus approach is that the patients don’t realise they’re sick, or that they’re being manipulated. In fact, they sincerely believe that their faith is truth, and that everyone else is wrong. A muslim believes a christian is wrong for the same reason a christian believes a muslim is wrong, when both are just as caught up in a delusion [imo]…[/quote]
That was way too polite man, I’m disappointed. Come on put some grunt behind it. None of this [imo] stuff. Who cares about anybody’s opinion including mine? Have some conviction. I have stated everything I believe in absolute terms and you come back with some mushy [imo] crap. For shame.

650

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the problem with the God-virus approach is that the patients don’t realise they’re sick, or that they’re being manipulated. In fact, they sincerely believe that their faith is truth, and that everyone else is wrong. A muslim believes a christian is wrong for the same reason a christian believes a muslim is wrong, when both are just as caught up in a delusion [imo]…[/quote]

Letting New Atheists talk can do nothing but help us. Our religions are viruses. Indeed, psychologists describe us infected, and the carriers of a type of thought virus! We are brainwashed. Deluded. We are mentally abused, abuse ourselves, and in return, mentally abuse our children. If it wasn’t for the Darwinian dead-end that atheism is, they’d have the power to carry out a holocaust that would dwarf all others. For whatever wrongs might be carried out by humans using Christ’s good name, Atheists would teach them a thing or two.

651

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…what for? I haven’t done anything wrong…
[/quote]

The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. The rest you won’t be punished for if you do not commit that one.[/quote]

…is that sin saying goddammit?

652

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…what for? I haven’t done anything wrong…
[/quote]

The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. The rest you won’t be punished for if you do not commit that one.[/quote]

…is that sin saying goddammit? [/quote]
I couldn’t do it no matter how hard I tried. And I tried pretty hard. I mean as a believer. He loved me no matter what I did and it drove me to repentance.

653

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the problem with the God-virus approach is that the patients don’t realise they’re sick, or that they’re being manipulated. In fact, they sincerely believe that their faith is truth, and that everyone else is wrong. A muslim believes a christian is wrong for the same reason a christian believes a muslim is wrong, when both are just as caught up in a delusion [imo]…[/quote]
That was way too polite man, I’m disappointed. Come on put some grunt behind it. None of this [imo] stuff. Who cares about anybody’s opinion including mine? Have some conviction. I have stated everything I believe in absolute terms and you come back with some mushy [imo] crap. For shame.[/quote]

…waaayyy too controling and manipulative for my taste Tiri; this is how the virus works man, can’t you see that?

(:

654

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…what for? I haven’t done anything wrong…
[/quote]

The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. The rest you won’t be punished for if you do not commit that one.[/quote]

…is that sin saying goddammit? [/quote]
I couldn’t do it no matter how hard I tried.[/quote]

…in dutch it’s GODVERDOMME Now you read it, thought it and sinned. Problem?

655

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< Organized religion (and I’m talking about all religions) relies on psychological manipulation that borders on emotional abuse. >>>[/quote]Out of curiosity, who do you figure is so manipulating and abusing me?
[/quote]

It’s internal. I PMed ephrem a link to a video series by a psychologist, who is an atheist, who has analogized religious doctrine to a computer virus. He notes that all of the world’s major religions (even Buddhism, he says) have very strict rules about sex. And he’s not talking about the rules that actually hurt someone, such as “don’t rape,” but rules about practices that hurt no one - a victimless crime. He uses masturbation as an example. This act hurts no other person. Yet every religion prohibits it. Why? Because everyone is going to do it at some point in their lives, and if we’re talking about teenage boys, we’re talking about a near-daily activity, sometimes more than once. Sexual tension builds up, the teenage boy (if he is very religious) may try his best not to think “dirty” thoughts, read his Bible, pray, whatever, but eventually something will give and he’ll go rub one out. In his mind he has violated “God’s law” and feels extremely guilty. To assuage his guilt, he goes to church (perhaps to confession if he is Catholic) and asks for forgiveness. He’ll generally get forgiveness, or some form of it, and off he goes. The cycle repeats itself. This guilt cycle, which has been implanted in the brain by priests, is what keeps most people from rejecting religion. It is emotionally abusive because it causes intense feelings of guilt, perhaps even feelings of depression, for no good reason other than to force people to remain with a particular religion.

This is just one method. There are also various hypnotic techniques that preachers use to get people to feel as if the spirit has descended upon them. [/quote]

I’m sorry but this is a crock of shit. So there is a conspiracy of preachers to get people to feel as if the spirit has descended upon them?

So we just came up with discernment, and understanding when the spirit is actually with you and when it is just feelings, because we are trying to trick people? Interesting.

And what is that purpose? So they can have more people sit in church on Sunday? So they can have more socials? So people will pray more decades, light more candles, or be more devout? Join an Order? Give more to Charity? Join a Fraternity?[/quote]

I don’t completely agree with the God virus concept, although some of the ideas are intriguing. I feel that religion was initially invented to function as an unpaid, omnipresent police force. Let’s face it, people are more likely to do bad things if they don’t fear getting caught. And some of the rules served a purpose. For example, we all know that undercooked pork will make you sick and cause death. Today, we have cooking thermometers and ovens that can monitor temperature. These gadgets were not around in the Bronze Age. Hence the kosher laws. Judaism created a simple rule: don’t eat pork. How did they enforce the rule? Fear of punishment from an invisible but all-powerful being.

The same thing happened with marriage in the Middle Ages in Europe. Love was irrelevant in these early marriages. It was all about royalty marrying royalty to maximize land ownership and thus increase their power. A young prince would find himself stuck marrying some hideous troll of a cousin who never wanted sex. How do you get the prince to stay married to someone like that? The dukes and counts got together, went to the local priest, made a nice “donation,” and got the church to make a rule that if you get divorced you will go to hell. Problem solved. And how do you keep the young prince from sneaking out at night and having a roll in the hay with cute and saucy peasant girl? That’s right: hell! Cheat on your wife and you’ll go to hell. And in case the prince decides to screw the cute peasant girl anyway, their children will be called “bastards” with no right to inherit any property from the prince.

That’s right Sloth, marriage arose for economic reasons, not moral ones. And before anyone accuses me of trying to destroy marriage, please note that I’ve been married for over 19 years, and I think there are practical secular reasons for remaining married, one of them being that I believe that kids really do better with two parents. However, I do not judge divorced people as bad or single parents as somehow unfit.

656

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…what for? I haven’t done anything wrong…
[/quote]

The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. The rest you won’t be punished for if you do not commit that one.[/quote]

…is that sin saying goddammit? [/quote]

No, that is not the sin. “God damn it” is merely cursing something (whatever it is), but can be used in vain (or just saying it for no reason) is a no-no. However that is not the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is denying that the Godhead is truth, not because of ignorance (not having proof or not seeing it), but seeing truth and knowing it is truth, yet rejecting it.

657

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the problem with the God-virus approach is that the patients don’t realise they’re sick, or that they’re being manipulated. In fact, they sincerely believe that their faith is truth, and that everyone else is wrong. A muslim believes a christian is wrong for the same reason a christian believes a muslim is wrong, when both are just as caught up in a delusion [imo]…[/quote]

Letting New Atheists talk can do nothing but help us. Our religions are viruses. Indeed, psychologists describe us infected, and the carriers of a type of thought virus! We are brainwashed. Deluded. We are mentally abused, abuse ourselves, and in return, mentally abuse our children. If it wasn’t for the Darwinian dead-end that atheism is, they’d have the power to carry out a holocaust that would dwarf all others. For whatever wrongs might be carried out by humans using Christ’s good name, Atheists would teach them a thing or two.[/quote]

Please tell me why you think that atheists/agnostics/non-believers want to kill anybody or want to do bad things? I happen to like law and order. Why? Because if this is the only life I have, I don’t want to spend it in a constant fight for survival. Most atheists/agnostics would agree. I live what most would consider a very moral life. Why? How many religious people do you know who screwed up somehow and then prayed to God to get them out of their mess with the promise that they’ll never do it again? I’ve done it back when I was religious and I bet most people have. What happens is that they’ll get lucky and everything will turn out fine. Some people will keep their promise and not do it again, but many won’t. Eventually their luck will run out and they’ll get caught or the mess won’t be fixed. I don’t act like this. I know that if I do something, I am stuck with the consequences. Therefore, I try very hard to avoid those actions that may cause negative consequences.

658

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…what for? I haven’t done anything wrong…
[/quote]

The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. The rest you won’t be punished for if you do not commit that one.[/quote]

…is that sin saying goddammit? [/quote]

No, that is not the sin. “God damn it” is merely cursing something (whatever it is), but can be used in vain (or just saying it for no reason) is a no-no. However that is not the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is denying that the Godhead is truth, not because of ignorance (not having proof or not seeing it), but seeing truth and knowing it is truth, yet rejecting it.[/quote]

…aha. So, i reject the godhead as truth, altough i haven’t seen it’s truth, so i don’t know it’s truth. But i’ve been baptised and had my cathecism [sp?] in the Roman Catholic church though. Where does that leave me [in theory ofcourse]?

659

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…what for? I haven’t done anything wrong…
[/quote]

The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. The rest you won’t be punished for if you do not commit that one.[/quote]

…is that sin saying goddammit? [/quote]
I couldn’t do it no matter how hard I tried. And I tried pretty hard. I mean as a believer. He loved me no matter what I did and it drove me to repentance. [/quote]

…in dutch it’s GODVERDOMME Now you read it, thought it and sinned. Problem?[/quote]
I added the part I edited into my post. No. No problem for me. What was a problem was in my worst backslidden state nothing any of you people can think of could outdo the things I said to Him trying to get Him to leave me alone. He would not do it my way. The worse I was the more He loved me until I finally broke down and did it His way. Nothing and I do mean NOTHING… can convince me otherwise. I all I can do is tell people what I know. It’s up to the same God who broke me to break them. If this thread is not evidence to my friends that dead men cannot be argued into living I don’t know what would be.

Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? <<<>>> But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8, the end of the chapter

660

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…what for? I haven’t done anything wrong…
[/quote]

The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. The rest you won’t be punished for if you do not commit that one.[/quote]

…is that sin saying goddammit? [/quote]
I couldn’t do it no matter how hard I tried. And I tried pretty hard. I mean as a believer. He loved me no matter what I did and it drove me to repentance. [/quote]

…in dutch it’s GODVERDOMME Now you read it, thought it and sinned. Problem?[/quote]
I added the part I edited into my post. No. No problem for me. What was a problem was in my worst backslidden state nothing any of you people can think of could outdo the things I said to Him trying to get Him to leave me alone. He would not do it my way. The worse I was the more He loved me until I finally broke down and did it His way. Nothing and I do mean NOTHING… can convince me otherwise. I all I can do is tell people what I know. It’s up to the same God who broke me to break them. If this thread is not evidence to my friends that dead men cannot be argued into living I don’t know what would be.

Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? <<<>>> But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8, the end of the chapter[/quote]

Tirib, I would be very interested to hear your experience that lead to your conversion. I promise I won’t make fun of you. I know that I sometimes don’t keep my promise, but that’s usually when I get pissed off. As yet you haven’t done that. In fact, you’ve been understanding towards my point of view, probably because you were once a non-religious person yourself.