[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…Tiribulus, do you believe you’ll go to heaven?[/quote]
I do[/quote]
…i’m probably mistaken, but i thought no one could be sure of entering heaven until they were judged in the afterlife?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …i’m probably mistaken, but i thought no one could be sure of entering heaven until they were judged in the afterlife?[/quote]You are mistaken, which is fine. These are not subjects you’ve spent a lot of time on and my posts can get somewhat lengthy.
What I said was this:
…what does eternal life in heaven look like? I mean, are you you, as you are now? Without a physical body obviously, but with your personality intact?
Still waiting, Irish.
[quote]cueball wrote:
Capped, answer me this question if you would. Do you feel there are ANY redeeming or good qualities about Christianity? Or are you wholeheartedly dead set against it? And to be clear, I’m not talking about those who practice it.
[/quote]
Sorry I missed this.
Absolutely. There are scores of good qualities about christianity.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…what does eternal life in heaven look like? I mean, are you you, as you are now? Without a physical body obviously, but with your personality intact?[/quote]
I can only tell you what I’m told. There will be a physical resurrection of both sinners and saints including the very body each lived this life in. Even if they were vaporized in Hiroshima. The elect saints having been transformed in the work of Christ will not be judged in terms of salvation or not, but will be rewarded according to works done as Christians in this life.
Sinners will have every last sin and secret exposed before all, defined as God sees them and they will be declared guilty of eternally capital crimes for which they will receive the sentence of unending spiritual and physical torment as their bodies will have been then rendered incapable of perishing. The saints will have their bodies glorified in the same way Jesus’s was after His resurrection.
There will be no more tears or sorrow OR SIN for the church, the bride of Christ and hence we will stand in solemn and wholehearted agreement with the perfectly just and holy judgment of the God in who’s very presence we are now standing thanks to the righteousness of Christ we have been freely blessed with. There will be no dispute or regret even when someone we have loved in this life is judged.
Personality and individuality intact, but like I say and praise be to His name for it. NO MORE SIN!!! Paul cries out in Romans “Who will deliver me from this body of death!!!” We will have been so delivered. Even the closest of human of human relations are dissolved though with each having perfect fellowship with each and God.
That’s the short hopefully uncontroversial version as there are details about which true believers disagree, but I doubt if anybody will take me task on much in this post.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…what does eternal life in heaven look like? I mean, are you you, as you are now? Without a physical body obviously, but with your personality intact?[/quote]
I can only tell you what I’m told. There will be a physical resurrection of both sinners and saints including the very body each lived this life in. Even if they were vaporized in Hiroshima. The elect saints having been transformed in the work of Christ will not be judged in terms of salvation or not, but will be rewarded according to works done as Christians in this life.
Sinners will have every last sin and secret exposed before all, defined as God sees them and they will be declared guilty of eternally capital crimes for which they will receive the sentence of unending spiritual and physical torment as their bodies will have been then rendered incapable of perishing. The saints will have their bodies glorified in the same way Jesus’s was after His resurrection.
There will be no more tears or sorrow OR SIN for the church, the bride of Christ and hence we will stand in solemn and wholehearted agreement with the perfectly just and holy judgment of the God in who’s very presence we are now standing thanks to the righteousness of Christ we have been freely blessed with. There will be no dispute or regret even when someone we have loved in this life is judged.
Personality and individuality intact, but like I say and praise be to His name for it. NO MORE SIN!!! Paul cries out in Romans “Who will deliver me from this body of death!!!” We will have been so delivered. Even the closest of human of human relations are dissolved though with each having perfect fellowship with each and God.
That’s the short hopefully uncontroversial version as there are details about which true believers disagree, but I doubt if anybody will take me task on much in this post.[/quote]
…thank you, that was clarifying. Suffice to say that this belief merely reaffirms the insanity of religion for me. How you, as a clearly intelligent person, can devote yourself to such beliefs is still baffling to me. But that horse has been beaten enough, so let’s not go there again…
…i must admit that the prospect of living eternally as me, regardless of being without sin, even if i would’ve been admitted to heaven, which is doubtful to say the least, is not something i desire. I like life and living, but i’m at peace with death and the subsequent non-existence i expect death to hold for me. Nor do i fear hell and eternal torment for the simple fact i don’t believe in hell [or heaven]. But if what you say is true i just hope i have enough time to slap god silly for being such a dick before i burn for ever…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…thank you, that was clarifying. Suffice to say that this belief merely reaffirms the insanity of religion for me. How you, as a clearly intelligent person, can devote yourself to such beliefs is still baffling to me. But that horse has been beaten enough, so let’s not go there again…[/quote]Once again it has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with intelligence or the lack thereof.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< But if what you say is true i just hope i have enough time to slap god silly for being such a dick before i burn for ever… >>>[/quote]I sincerely hope and pray (I actually really do) that the judgment seat of Christ will not find you on the wrong side of His blood. If however my prayer for you is answered in the negative I assure you the God who commands light to exist and constantly knows the precise number of atoms in the universe will be entirely unimpressed with your assessment. He promises that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. In my case it will be a joyous occasion. I will continue to ask that it be for you as well.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…thank you, that was clarifying. Suffice to say that this belief merely reaffirms the insanity of religion for me. How you, as a clearly intelligent person, can devote yourself to such beliefs is still baffling to me. But that horse has been beaten enough, so let’s not go there again…[/quote]Once again it has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with intelligence or the lack thereof.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< But if what you say is true i just hope i have enough time to slap god silly for being such a dick before i burn for ever… >>>[/quote]I sincerely hope and pray (I actually really do) that the judgment seat of Christ will not find you on the wrong side of His blood. If however my prayer for you is answered in the negative I assure you the God who commands light to exist and constantly knows the precise number of atoms in the universe will be entirely unimpressed with your assessment. He promises that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. In my case it will be a joyous occasion. I will continue to ask that it be for you as well.
[/quote]
…a father that only loves you if you do what he commands of you, and punishes you for all eternity if you don’t, is an abusive parent unfit of my adoration and love. I do appreciate your best intentions though, and i wish you well…
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
When those actions are obviously influenced by the teachings of christianity, yes, its the religions fault.
I’m not saying christianity is bad because some priests molest children - that would be blaming the relgion for the actions of some of its members.
[/quote]
Can you please show me where burning crosses or lynching someone of another race, or molesting children is a Christian teaching.
Edit: Another misconception of Christianity-if people who claim to be Christians do something evil, it must have been taught to them through Christianity. Leaving the blame not in their hands, but the religion they claim to be a part of.
[/quote]
Read what I wrote again. I’m NOT doing that.
However, the bible says homosexuality is evil, and christians are bigoted against gays IN ACCORDANCE with their religion.
[/quote]
No, I’m pretty sure the actions of a bigot and thoughts of a bigot are a big no-no in the Christian world. Bigots are bigots because of prejudice, not because Christian Theology actually justifies it.
Actually it doesn’t teach that, and neither does doctrine.
Okay, that is a straight moral issue, I’m sorry but whether the person volunteers or is opposed to it, killing someone besides serving justice is murder.
[quote]
I’m not singling out the actions of a few members of the group that dont reflect the teachings, my problems are with the actions of the majority that come directly from the teachings.[/quote]
They do not come directly from the teachings, out of the three things you have stated two are complete wrong, and the third someone could come to logically outside of theology.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
I’m not much of a believer, either.
But if I could choose between being the kind of person Christianity has apparently made Tirib, and the kind of your person your beliefs seem to manifest here, I’d choose Tirib anytime.
And, it’s beyond me why people like you find it so urgently necessary to try to prove the Tiribs of the world wrong…[/quote]
This is most exceedingly gracious and humbling of you kind sir. It also means more to me than you know.[/quote]
Yeah, dont take it too personal. Chushin don’t like me from some other threads, and is just using flattering you as a way of taking a shot at me.
Carry on. :)[/quote]
Ha! Don’t flatter yourself there, Captain Planet.
If we’ve conflicted in the past (not unlikely, given the bozo you seem to be), Chushin “don’t recall it.”
And Tirib? YOU know my words stand, from our PMs.[/quote]
Name calling. Super. [/quote]
Yes, and we know you’re above name calling.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Answer me this, sincerely: Why is it, that when something, at face value, is thought to be good, it is said to be proof of the existance of god and his benevolence… yet when something, at face value, is thought to be bad, and either the proof of the nonexistance of god, or lack of his benevolence, another interepretation entirely must be made in order to preserve both?
Example:
My crops grew very well, this proves god loves me and is kind! I understand the action and the reasoning for it.
or
My crops failed… clearly god must have some reason I cannot see, which still makes him benevolent, but beyond my understanding.
This just shows that Christians aren’t worried about proof, or reason: crops may grow or crops may fail, good or bad may happen, and either they take the good to mean they are right, or the bad to mean they are right.
Then pompously claim that they see proof of god all the time. Well, yeah, if you’re going to twist anything and everything into “proof of god”, you’re going to see it all the time.[/quote]
LMAO - this post just goes to show you’ve never known a farmer or a Christian . . .
My crops succeed = God has blessed my efforts. My crops failed = God has blessed my efforts.
A Christian understands that all of life, every event, has the potential for being a blessing. Nothing is taken as a punishment or a lack of blessing.
My crops failing may have been just the thing needed to get me off my a$$ and back to school, or perhaps convince me to move to Africa and to be a missionary farmer there, or maybe a sign that my counting on a single crop was a poor choice of planning on my part.
Your oversimplistic and misinformed opinions of Christianity are sad to see. . . it’s no wonder you don’t believe in Christianity - you don’t even know what it is . . . .[/quote]
Yup. Raised catholic, got confirmed, in numerous bible study groups… I have no idea what it is. Right. [/quote]
Just because you were raised Catholic and were confirmed, does not mean you know theology. Just because you are in numerous study groups, does not mean you know the Bible. Just saying.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a father that only loves you if you do what he commands of you, and punishes you for all eternity if you don’t, is an abusive parent unfit of my adoration and love. I do appreciate your best intentions though, and i wish you well…
[/quote]
Organized religion (and I’m talking about all religions) relies on psychological manipulation that borders on emotional abuse. It tells you that you are bad and worthless, suppresses critical thought, and instills guilt. But it also tells you that if you stick with the religion you will ultimately be forgiven and loved. It’s similar to how an abusive spouse operates. Many people ask why a woman (although men can also be victims of spousal abuse) would remain with an abusive spouse. Because after the woman gets beaten and told she is worthless (in religion we are told that we are all sinners), the guy then switches gears and tells her that he really does love her (but God really does love you), that he really needs her to love him and accept him because he is the way he is (God is the way God is and you cannot question God’s nature) because of a bad childhood or whatever (this is a guilt mechanism, and religions have tons of ways of making you feel guilty), that he promises to change and get counseling, and that although it may take some time to go through counseling, “some day” he will be the best husband ever (even though there may be some bad times ahead for you, just believe in what our religion and some day you will get to heaven and experience eternal peace and love). Some spouses are able to leave the abusive relationship. Some remain and continue to get beaten. Some remain and die at the hands of their abuser. Sounds a lot like religion.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
The point was to illustrate the intellectual dishonesty with which christians approach the subject.
It is dishonest to claim you see objective proof of something, when the fact is that you will twist any outcome to be “proof”. This is not proof, its wanton confirmation bias.
Oh, and another intellectually weak and dishonest technique: accuse the person of lying.
I’m about done here. Have fun.[/quote]
LOL - intellectual dishonesty? Come on - man up and show me any intellectual dishonesty in my Christianity - it’s nice to build straw men and burn them down and all, but here I am . … a real life, intellectually honest Christian . . . hit me with your best shot. Prove that anything that I believe is intellectually dishonest . . . come up - no more rants or rhetoric, a real example of where my Christianity is based on intellectual dishonesty . . . .[/quote]
sigh
- You operate from the foregone conclusion that the bible is perfect and god exists, because the bible, which is perfect, says so.
The intellectually honest method of looking at the possibility of the bibles perfection is to start with the belief that it may be the case that the bible is perfect, or it may not be the case that the bible is perfect.
In order to test this, you look at the bible, searching for any inaccuraces, falsehoods, contradictions, etc. When you find some, you conclude that the bible is not perfect (impeccable, inerrent, etc).
For example, the bible says there is a dome above the earth, holding out the waters of heaven, that the sun and moon are set into. This is not fact. The bible is wrong.
So, it is not the case that the bible is inerrent. Therefore, claiming that something else written in the bible must be true, because it is written in the “perfect” word of god, is untrue. Things in the bible may be true or not, but being written in your bible does not inherently make them true or false.
You, however, ignore this because it does not work as confirmation for what you “already know” - that the bible is without error.
-
Intellectual terrorism - you stoop to using fear as a tactic to convert people to your side. If what you were saying was true, you wouldnt need threats of eternal torment from your “omnipotent benevolent” creator.
-
You ignore evidence against your cause and cherry pick evidence for it. As explained with the coin flipping analogy, you twist any outcome of any situation to be proof of your cause, shifting the rules with each step.
You still have yet to answer my question: Why can gods benevolent character be directly observed when you see something “good”, yet “bad” events do not reveal a malevolent character?
That would be intellectually honest: to say gods character can be directly observed by what we see.
However, you take the dishonest approach; that gods character can be directly observed by what we see ONLY when we see something good, however, when we see something bad, gods character cannot be directly observed, but, instead, there must be a deeper or hidden meaning behind his action.
You change the rules back and forth and create double standards in order to preserve a foregone conclusion. That is intellectual dishonesty.[/quote]
Yeah, what I thought. For being Catholic you sure know a lot about Theology and Apologetics.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a father that only loves you if you do what he commands of you, and punishes you for all eternity if you don’t, is an abusive parent unfit of my adoration and love. I do appreciate your best intentions though, and i wish you well…
[/quote]
Organized religion (and I’m talking about all religions) relies on psychological manipulation that borders on emotional abuse. It tells you that you are bad and worthless, suppresses critical thought, and instills guilt. But it also tells you that if you stick with the religion you will ultimately be forgiven and loved. It’s similar to how an abusive spouse operates. Many people ask why a woman (although men can also be victims of spousal abuse) would remain with an abusive spouse. Because after the woman gets beaten and told she is worthless (in religion we are told that we are all sinners), the guy then switches gears and tells her that he really does love her (but God really does love you), that he really needs her to love him and accept him because he is the way he is (God is the way God is and you cannot question God’s nature) because of a bad childhood or whatever (this is a guilt mechanism, and religions have tons of ways of making you feel guilty), that he promises to change and get counseling, and that although it may take some time to go through counseling, “some day” he will be the best husband ever (even though there may be some bad times ahead for you, just believe in what our religion and some day you will get to heaven and experience eternal peace and love). Some spouses are able to leave the abusive relationship. Some remain and continue to get beaten. Some remain and die at the hands of their abuser. Sounds a lot like religion.[/quote]
You should probably pick up a Catechism and read, the things you say are not even close to the truth.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…thank you, that was clarifying. Suffice to say that this belief merely reaffirms the insanity of religion for me. How you, as a clearly intelligent person, can devote yourself to such beliefs is still baffling to me. But that horse has been beaten enough, so let’s not go there again…[/quote]Once again it has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with intelligence or the lack thereof.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< But if what you say is true i just hope i have enough time to slap god silly for being such a dick before i burn for ever… >>>[/quote]I sincerely hope and pray (I actually really do) that the judgment seat of Christ will not find you on the wrong side of His blood. If however my prayer for you is answered in the negative I assure you the God who commands light to exist and constantly knows the precise number of atoms in the universe will be entirely unimpressed with your assessment. He promises that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. In my case it will be a joyous occasion. I will continue to ask that it be for you as well.
[/quote]
…a father that only loves you if you do what he commands of you, and punishes you for all eternity if you don’t, is an abusive parent unfit of my adoration and love. I do appreciate your best intentions though, and i wish you well…
[/quote]
Prodigal Son, ask for forgiveness. 
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a father that only loves you if you do what he commands of you, and punishes you for all eternity if you don’t, is an abusive parent unfit of my adoration and love. I do appreciate your best intentions though, and i wish you well…
[/quote]
Organized religion (and I’m talking about all religions) relies on psychological manipulation that borders on emotional abuse. It tells you that you are bad and worthless, suppresses critical thought, and instills guilt. But it also tells you that if you stick with the religion you will ultimately be forgiven and loved. It’s similar to how an abusive spouse operates. Many people ask why a woman (although men can also be victims of spousal abuse) would remain with an abusive spouse. Because after the woman gets beaten and told she is worthless (in religion we are told that we are all sinners), the guy then switches gears and tells her that he really does love her (but God really does love you), that he really needs her to love him and accept him because he is the way he is (God is the way God is and you cannot question God’s nature) because of a bad childhood or whatever (this is a guilt mechanism, and religions have tons of ways of making you feel guilty), that he promises to change and get counseling, and that although it may take some time to go through counseling, “some day” he will be the best husband ever (even though there may be some bad times ahead for you, just believe in what our religion and some day you will get to heaven and experience eternal peace and love). Some spouses are able to leave the abusive relationship. Some remain and continue to get beaten. Some remain and die at the hands of their abuser. Sounds a lot like religion.[/quote]
…the similarities are undeniable. I’m watching the God Virus vids, and he makes a strong case for his thesis, but i’m at no.5 so he said nothing yet about a anti-dote. I wonder what his solution is…
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< Organized religion (and I’m talking about all religions) relies on psychological manipulation that borders on emotional abuse. >>>[/quote]Out of curiosity, who do you figure is so manipulating and abusing me?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a father that only loves you if you do what he commands of you, and punishes you for all eternity if you don’t, is an abusive parent unfit of my adoration and love. I do appreciate your best intentions though, and i wish you well…
[/quote]
Organized religion (and I’m talking about all religions) relies on psychological manipulation that borders on emotional abuse. It tells you that you are bad and worthless, suppresses critical thought, and instills guilt. But it also tells you that if you stick with the religion you will ultimately be forgiven and loved. It’s similar to how an abusive spouse operates. Many people ask why a woman (although men can also be victims of spousal abuse) would remain with an abusive spouse. Because after the woman gets beaten and told she is worthless (in religion we are told that we are all sinners), the guy then switches gears and tells her that he really does love her (but God really does love you), that he really needs her to love him and accept him because he is the way he is (God is the way God is and you cannot question God’s nature) because of a bad childhood or whatever (this is a guilt mechanism, and religions have tons of ways of making you feel guilty), that he promises to change and get counseling, and that although it may take some time to go through counseling, “some day” he will be the best husband ever (even though there may be some bad times ahead for you, just believe in what our religion and some day you will get to heaven and experience eternal peace and love). Some spouses are able to leave the abusive relationship. Some remain and continue to get beaten. Some remain and die at the hands of their abuser. Sounds a lot like religion.[/quote]
You should probably pick up a Catechism and read, the things you say are not even close to the truth. [/quote]
Is there a good online Catechism? I’ll willingly read it as I have an interest in religious thought and belief if for no other reason than to know what I’m up against. Remember, though, that I was raised Catholic and even went to a Catholic school, and the notion that I was a “sinner” was firmly implanted in my head at a young age. You can argue that this wasn’t quite right, that perhaps I misinterpreted something (I was 8 years old at the time so critical thinking and logic were not my strongest qualities), that perhaps they should have stressed more the redeeming nature of Christ, and all that. That’s fine, but the reality was that for the longest time I felt I was a bad person. Religion did nothing good for me. Now, before you go and say that I turned away from God because of a bad experience, no, that’s not why. I was willing to give organized religion another shot - I heard that the Episcopalians were pretty mellow and I was even thinking of going back to the Catholic Church on the theory that as a mature adult, I could focus more on the positive aspects and less on the negative. But the impediment is still the same - there is no verifiable evidence of the existence of a supreme being, and any evidence that might suggest that a supreme being exists most certainly does not support the idea that this being is anything like the one mentioned in the major religion’s of the world.
His will be catholic which is up to him. If you care, the above is in my view the closest thing to biblical truth outside the bible itself. This should give you plenty more to ridicule.