[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< a long post >>>
[/quote]I (and others) have addressed all this already elsewhere in this thread. If you are interested in Christian views please peruse. If not then why are you here? Not that I’m sorry in the slightest that you are, but I’m curious. I have to say again that it’s been like a couple decades since I’ve heard a new argument against the Christian faith. They’re all the same argument in different packages anyway.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< By contrast, religiosity is increasing at a very fast rate in Third World countries. What does that tell you?[/quote]That God is doing exactly what He promises and has always done? The “enlightened” are being swallowed up in their own degrading corruption with every bad stat there is climbing steadily while the meek and childlike just may get the baton of progress passed to them. We’ll see.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< a long post >>>
[/quote]I (and others) have addressed all this already elsewhere in this thread. If you are interested in Christian views please peruse. If not then why are you here? Not that I’m sorry in the slightest that you are, but I’m curious. I have to say again that it’s been like a couple decades since I’ve heard a new argument against the Christian faith. They’re all the same argument in different packages anyway.
[/quote]
You’re right, I don’t get what a person in the modern world would still believe in any of the Abrahamic religions. I could see how a person could be a Deist. For a while I had somewhat of a Deistic belief based mainly on the cosmological argument that the universe required some sort of prime mover. But I never understood the Jesus story. If God wanted to forgive humans, why not just do so? Why the need for what was essentially a human sacrifice of his son no less? I could also see how the Abrahamic religions fulfilled a need to impose law, order, and a sense of morality during the Bronze Age and into the Middle Ages. But why these beliefs survive into the 21st century is a mystery.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
On another note…Just how much of an evolutionary/biological dead end has atheism/secularism turned out to be? Children tend to hold onto the faith of their religious fathers, while the atheist doesn’t seem to be able to breed at replacement rates. Isn’t that something? Are we arguing with a Darwinian dead-end, as bizarre as that may sound? Demographically, the righteous really will inherit the earth. [/quote]
First, where did you get the statistics that atheists are not breeding at replacement rates? At any rate, breeding is irrelevant. Many atheists/agnostics were raised in religions families and were once religious, some very much so. I was raised Catholic, and subsequently determined that it was a bunch of crap. Second, a choice to limit family size is not evolutionary in nature as it is not based on natural selection or adaptation. In fact, I would argue that the humans that are best adapted to modern society are the ones who have rejected ideas that came from the Bronze Age. Statistics on religiosity show that in the U.S., atheists, agnostics, and those who answered “none” for religious preference have nearly doubled in the last 10 years. Religious belief in industrialized nations is decreasing. Sweden is about 80% atheist/agnostic. England about 40%. By contrast, religiosity is increasing at a very fast rate in Third World countries. What does that tell you?[/quote]
Look at every one of those nations’ fertility rates…Guess what the solution has been? Mass immigration from foreign, and rather religious, populations.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< By contrast, religiosity is increasing at a very fast rate in Third World countries. What does that tell you?[/quote]That God is doing exactly what He promises and has always done? The “enlightened” are being swallowed up in their own degrading corruption with every bad stat there is climbing steadily while the meek and childlike just may get the baton of progress passed to them. We’ll see.
[/quote]
Please tell me why I am so “corrupt?” I’ve been married for almost 20 years. I have a job. I spend time with my kid, help her with homework, and volunteer at her school when I can. I help with housework. I don’t cheat or steal, and I try hard not to lie. I never killed anyone. I try to help people when I can. I do this because I love my family and because I think this is what people in a civilized society should do, not because I fear any sort of punishment from a Sky Wizard. My “flaw,” if you can call it that, is that I am a die-hard skeptic and I accept things based only on evidence. I have rejected religion because I see no evidence to support it. Although it is possible that there is a Deity that started the universe, this is only speculation on my part as I have no hard evidence for this, and I definitely reject the Jesus story as a myth. However, despite being a generally decent person, by virtue of rejecting the Jesus story I am corrupt and will go to hell. Is that correct?
Related to what I was saying. I’ll leave it at that so as not to completely hijack this thread.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< By contrast, religiosity is increasing at a very fast rate in Third World countries. What does that tell you?[/quote]That God is doing exactly what He promises and has always done? The “enlightened” are being swallowed up in their own degrading corruption with every bad stat there is climbing steadily while the meek and childlike just may get the baton of progress passed to them. We’ll see.
[/quote]
Please tell me why I am so “corrupt?” I’ve been married for almost 20 years. I have a job. I spend time with my kid, help her with homework, and volunteer at her school when I can. I help with housework. I don’t cheat or steal, and I try hard not to lie. I never killed anyone. I try to help people when I can. I do this because I love my family and because I think this is what people in a civilized society should do, not because I fear any sort of punishment from a Sky Wizard. My “flaw,” if you can call it that, is that I am a die-hard skeptic and I accept things based only on evidence. I have rejected religion because I see no evidence to support it. Although it is possible that there is a Deity that started the universe, this is only speculation on my part as I have no hard evidence for this, and I definitely reject the Jesus story as a myth. However, despite being a generally decent person, by virtue of rejecting the Jesus story I am corrupt and will go to hell. Is that correct?[/quote]I was speaking in this context of unbelieving societies, one of which ours has most assuredly become rather than individuals. Like I said, all this has been addressed. What you are asking specifically has been between Ephrem and myself.
However, God Himself is the standard, not our estimation of our own decency as we compare ourselves with others. The most heinous and insidious sins are the ones nobody can see because God looks on the heart. That’s why Jesus taught that unrighteous anger is murder and lustful eyes are adultery whether either is actually acted on or not, but yes rejecting Christ is is rejecting the only forgiveness possible for God’s estimation of human sin which is the only one that matters.
God cannot simply wink and pass on sin due to His violated holiness and inviolate justice demanding payment because He says so. All infractions of the law of God are equally damnable no matter how seemingly small to us hence a bite from a piece of fruit justly plunges all of mankind into eternal damnation if left to themselves. It’s not the fruit or even primarily the action. It’s the independent autonomous attitude and whom it’s against, both of which you have here perfectly illustrated in this last post. You have done this because as a child of Adam it is natural for you to do so. It is also natural for you to scowl and sneer at your monitor while reading this and wonder how a seemingly reasonably smart guy can believe fantastic bullshit like this. How well I know. I spent my first 20 years as a prime specimen myself.
Like I said in another post. Mahatma Ghandi and Charles Manson will spend eternity in the same hell, (assuming Manson doesn’t repent which is not beyond possibility). If you really want more than this I will respond again, but all this really has already been covered, and not just by me. Also once the inevitable debate between myself and Haney1 on one side and a few others here on the other, who all consider each other brother’s in Christ, gets rolling, some very meaty topics will be addressed and along the way many more answers to questions people always ask.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Related to what I was saying. I’ll leave it at that so as not to completely hijack this thread.
[/quote]
Interesting site. The one thing in their favor is that one of the articles noted that many of today’s Republicans are “fascists.” This is true to some extent. But this article had me shaking my head:
They seem to have a very parochial world view. I agree that not everyone can “be whatever they want,” but the idea that expanding educational opportunities is somehow bad is antithetical to a successful free market system.
End of hijack.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Like I said in another post. Mahatma Ghandi and Charles Manson will spend eternity in the same hell, (assuming Manson doesn’t repent which is not beyond possibility).
[/quote]
No need to expand on this as this is what I thought the answer would be. But let me ask you this: Do you think that it is a fair result that Mahatma Ghandi and Charles Manson will spend eternity in the same hell? I know you’ll probably say that it is not your place to question God and that God doesn’t care what you think. I get all that. But deep down, do you truly think that this is a fair and just result?
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Like I said in another post. Mahatma Ghandi and Charles Manson will spend eternity in the same hell, (assuming Manson doesn’t repent which is not beyond possibility).
[/quote]
No need to expand on this as this is what I thought the answer would be. But let me ask you this: Do you think that it is a fair result that Mahatma Ghandi and Charles Manson will spend eternity in the same hell? I know you’ll probably say that it is not your place to question God and that God doesn’t care what you think. I get all that. But deep down, do you truly think that this is a fair and just result?
[/quote]Having been shown by God Himself the precise nature of sin, especially my own, without hesitation absolutely yes. He lives in my heart just as He promised He would. I see things His way.
Believe me man I do understand completely lol. DOO DOO DOO DOO (twilight zone theme) There’s no possible way I can prove that to you by standards you will accept, but HE IS there and more real than any other fact there is.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
So I know the Bible is true, because I tested it . . . Have you personally tested it or are you just parroting what someone else has stated . . . who’s being intellectually dishonest now?
[/quote]
ROFLMMFAO!!!
Prove there is a dome above the earth, holding up water, that the sun and moon are set into. Right now.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
So I know the Bible is true, because I tested it . . . Have you personally tested it or are you just parroting what someone else has stated . . . who’s being intellectually dishonest now?
[/quote]
ROFLMMFAO!!!
Prove there is a dome above the earth, holding up water, that the sun and moon are set into. Right now.[/quote]
I really did have you figured as sharper than this. That’s a serious statement. I can find stickier problems in the bible myself. I’ll let him have the honor of answering this one though.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
So I know the Bible is true, because I tested it . . . Have you personally tested it or are you just parroting what someone else has stated . . . who’s being intellectually dishonest now?
[/quote]
ROFLMMFAO!!!
Prove there is a dome above the earth, holding up water, that the sun and moon are set into. Right now.[/quote]
I really did have you figured as sharper than this. That’s a serious statement. I can find stickier problems in the bible myself. I’ll let him have the honor of answering this one though.[/quote]
Just think, out there somewhere is some muslim, or hindu, or shinto who is just as sure of his religion as you are of yours.
And has just as much chance of being right.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< By contrast, religiosity is increasing at a very fast rate in Third World countries. What does that tell you?[/quote]That God is doing exactly what He promises and has always done? The “enlightened” are being swallowed up in their own degrading corruption with every bad stat there is climbing steadily while the meek and childlike just may get the baton of progress passed to them. We’ll see.
[/quote]
LMAO
You’ve been so meek and childlike, Tirib. So meek.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< By contrast, religiosity is increasing at a very fast rate in Third World countries. What does that tell you?[/quote]That God is doing exactly what He promises and has always done? The “enlightened” are being swallowed up in their own degrading corruption with every bad stat there is climbing steadily while the meek and childlike just may get the baton of progress passed to them. We’ll see.
[/quote]
LMAO
You’ve been so meek and childlike, Tirib. So meek.[/quote]
Wow.
All hyperbole aside, you really are not a very nice person.
I don’t know what has caused all that spite and anger in you, but I’m sure you’d be a lot happier if you dealt with it in some constructive way.
I’m not really Christian, but I do believe there is a certain justice / karma in the world, and can only feel sorry for what you’re going to experience at some point.
[/quote]
Weren’t you the guy who was just using a lot of mean words to describe me, because I made you angry and you wanted to hurt my feelings?
…
Of course there’s karma in the world. Karma is sanskrit for “action”. The concept of karma is that good action produces good results, bad action, bad results.
So, if you exercise and eat right, you’ll be healthy. Don’t do either, you’ll be unhealthy.
Simple, logical, makes sense.
This whole “mystical invisible force balancing good and evil in the universe in ways we cant understand”… not karma.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Just think, out there somewhere is some muslim, or hindu, or shinto who is just as sure of his religion as you are of yours. And has just as much chance of being right.[/quote]One day, by the grace of God, you just may realize that with every keystroke here you have unavoidably established the perfect providence of the triumphant risen Christ. Today does not appear to be that day, but in the meantime the God who works all things according to His purpose will continue to make even the scorn of sinners to praise Him.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
LMAYou’ve been so meek and childlike, Tirib. So meek.[/quote]Meekness toward God IS boldness toward men.
…Tiribulus, do you believe you’ll go to heaven?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…Tiribulus, do you believe you’ll go to heaven?[/quote]
I do