Misconceptions of Christianity

Tiribulus · July 15, 2010, 3:38pm

[quote]haney1 wrote:
What I find fascinating about the exchange is the fact that everyone here is a novice at philosophy, but that doesn’t stop the exchange from becoming degrading with a dash of absolute justification of belief on both sides.[/quote]If I came off as degrading I certainly didn’t mean to (though that’s not always out of bounds biblically either). However I claim nothing less than absolute justification for my beliefs as they are based on the person, power and authority of God himself. Not from the standpoint of the philosopher though of which Paul says in 1 Cor. it is foolishness to them[quote]haney1 wrote:
I personally find the evidence for my belief convincing, but I am not ignorant to the reasons why they are not enough for others. It is the absolute position with the degrading tone that becomes odd. That applies to all sides of the discussion.[/quote]I personally find plenty of convincing evidences as well and also know why they are not enough for others.

RC Sproul said:

[quote] “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins”- Ephesians 2:1"

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)- Ephesians 2:5

“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses”- Colossians 2:13

What does “dead in sin” mean?

Notice that in all three of the above Biblical references to the phrase “dead in sin” that the solution to spiritual death is God’s quickening (or regeneration). This means the concept refers to man’s natural state in original sin, apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. To be unspiritual, dead in sin or “of the flesh”, then, refers to man’s natural fallen condition of bondage to corruption prior to the intervention of the Holy Spirit. In 1 Corinthinans 2, it teaches us that persons in this state cannot understand spiritual truths when spoken to them, until the Spirit renews them and gives them understanding.[/quote] Please don’t get me wrong dear brother, but I chose Sproul on purpose. He is correct. It’s quite absolute and pretty much what I’ve been saying. The evidences born of unbelief are just that. They carry weight in the sphere of the fallen where yes our old nature still lives, but they will not be treated by me as equally legitimate or worthy of consideration. Those evidences are the product of sin and while I can acknowledge their apparent weightiness in the eyes of sinners I cannot treat them as anything other than they are. Illegitimate devices of self deception designed as an escape from moral responsibility to God. That’s the reformed view in contrast to the arminian view wherein “dead” doesn’t really mean quite dead. No matter how I say all this in an internet forum it’s gonna appear the wrong way, but I must be honest.

Brother_Chris · July 15, 2010, 4:33pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I think you forget about the freewill thing, >>>
[/quote]
Like I say, you and I are gonna butt heads eventually. I keep puttin it off because there’s other stuff goin on. I’m just puttin down a stake on this one for now. By the definition intended by most people, including many many Christians I reject that man has a free will. Take another look at Augustine’s City of God. He got pretty close there, but Aquinas steered himself into his Aristotelean rationalistic ditch on that one.[/quote]

Well what definition do you think most people use for free will?

Brother_Chris · July 15, 2010, 4:37pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
<<< I couldn’t agree more. This is the reason I stopped going to church with people in college. I would see people from fraternities and sororities who were doing terrible things the night before and then head to church to wash their hands of their bad deeds. They would do this every week. Eventually, I stopped going to church solely for this reason. >>>[/quote]
This is a crime against heaven.(although all sin is) People who claim the gospel of Christ and reproach His name with flagrant unrepentant sin will have much much to answer for. Everybody struggles. Everybody. The apostle Paul gives us a military style sit-rep of his own struggles in Romans. Augustine’s confessions are nothing but a brother sharing his struggles with sin. I myself (though certainly no Paul or Augustine) am at war with my old Adam every day.

However, people who love and embrace sin yet take His name on their lips and put a stumbling block before those who know them will be quite justly dealt with in the judgment.

Oh yeah. I agree. Going to church means less than nothing by itself.[/quote]

I back Tirib on this one.

I personally stopped going to church for this very reason. I did not hate the church but the people that were in the church. This is both Lay people and the staff. I was one of those people though. I would continue to sin, and show up to church to make myself feel good. I decided the only way to get away was stop going. I ran from God.

I really struggled going back to church, until I realized that we are all human. I have had a pastor cheat on his wife. I have had a pastor steal from the church. People put the clergy on a pedistool. They are human just like us that struggle with the same sin. God will definitely judge them more harshly for their sin, but that is between them and God, and they are still human. I no longer look at the clergy, staff, or pastor as being better than me, they just have more knowledge of the Bible. They are my Earthly shepperd, but they do not own the flock. The flock belongs to God. God is our true shepperd and he will protect us with his life. Sin will kill us, but Jesus being our true shepperd took that sin on himself so that we might be safe or saved from sin. Look to Jesus and you will see what true Christians are striving to be. I had to stop comparing myself to other humans. I had to compare myself to God. When you compare yourself to God you will know you are sinful.

I still struggle with the people in church, especially the “Tithers of the Month.” These are the people that beleive since they give so much to the church they have the right to get preferrential treatment. They demand the church to serve them. [/quote]

As a wise man once said, “If a hypocrite is standing between you and G-d, that just means that the hypocrite is a little closer to G-d than you are.”

IrishSteel · July 15, 2010, 4:46pm

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Answer me this, sincerely: Why is it, that when something, at face value, is thought to be good, it is said to be proof of the existance of god and his benevolence… yet when something, at face value, is thought to be bad, and either the proof of the nonexistance of god, or lack of his benevolence, another interepretation entirely must be made in order to preserve both?

Example:

My crops grew very well, this proves god loves me and is kind! I understand the action and the reasoning for it.

or

My crops failed… clearly god must have some reason I cannot see, which still makes him benevolent, but beyond my understanding.

This just shows that Christians aren’t worried about proof, or reason: crops may grow or crops may fail, good or bad may happen, and either they take the good to mean they are right, or the bad to mean they are right.

Then pompously claim that they see proof of god all the time. Well, yeah, if you’re going to twist anything and everything into “proof of god”, you’re going to see it all the time.[/quote]

LMAO - this post just goes to show you’ve never known a farmer or a Christian . . .

My crops succeed = God has blessed my efforts. My crops failed = God has blessed my efforts.

A Christian understands that all of life, every event, has the potential for being a blessing. Nothing is taken as a punishment or a lack of blessing.

My crops failing may have been just the thing needed to get me off my a$$ and back to school, or perhaps convince me to move to Africa and to be a missionary farmer there, or maybe a sign that my counting on a single crop was a poor choice of planning on my part.

Your oversimplistic and misinformed opinions of Christianity are sad to see. . . it’s no wonder you don’t believe in Christianity - you don’t even know what it is . . . .

Brother_Chris · July 15, 2010, 4:53pm

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have a few questions on sin. Is there any way I cannot commit sin in the eyes of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam? Is my very existence a sin? If so, why would killing myself also be a sin?[/quote]

I am not sure about Judaism or Islam, but in Christianity. No, because of Original Sin. However, if you repent and get baptized, then continue to grow and ask for forgiveness, &c. You’ll be absolved of your sins.

haney1 · July 15, 2010, 5:06pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
If I came off as degrading I certainly didn’t mean to (though that’s not always out of bounds biblically either). However I claim nothing less than absolute justification for my beliefs as they are based on the person, power and authority of God himself. Not from the standpoint of the philosopher though of which Paul says in 1 Cor. it is foolishness to them
[/quote]
I don’t think you came of as degrading, and I was referring to many others who on this forum in the past were over the top with their view to the point of being down right spiteful. I don’t back down from my views either and I side with your perspective totally. I just take a different approach than you do. :-). My original post was geared more towards the introduction of a strong athiest into the topic who was exhibiting the traits I wrote about.

[quote]haney1 wrote:

I personally find plenty of convincing evidences as well and also know why they are not enough for others.

RC Sproul said:

[quote] “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins”- Ephesians 2:1"

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)- Ephesians 2:5

“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses”- Colossians 2:13

What does “dead in sin” mean?

Notice that in all three of the above Biblical references to the phrase “dead in sin” that the solution to spiritual death is God’s quickening (or regeneration). This means the concept refers to man’s natural state in original sin, apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. To be unspiritual, dead in sin or “of the flesh”, then, refers to man’s natural fallen condition of bondage to corruption prior to the intervention of the Holy Spirit. In 1 Corinthinans 2, it teaches us that persons in this state cannot understand spiritual truths when spoken to them, until the Spirit renews them and gives them understanding.[/quote] Please don’t get me wrong dear brother, but I chose Sproul on purpose. He is correct. It’s quite absolute and pretty much what I’ve been saying. The evidences born of unbelief are just that. They carry weight in the sphere of the fallen where yes our old nature still lives, but they will not be treated by me as equally legitimate or worthy of consideration. Those evidences are the product of sin and while I can acknowledge their apparent weightiness in the eyes of sinners I cannot treat them as anything other than they are. Illegitimate devices of self deception designed as an escape from moral responsibility to God. That’s the reformed view in contrast to the arminian view wherein “dead” doesn’t really mean quite dead. No matter how I say all this in an internet forum it’s gonna appear the wrong way, but I must be honest.
[/quote]

oh no doubt about our perspective on it. I think you have managed to have a view point with extreme conviction but not come of as a jerk about it. I would not be able to pull that off and be loyal to my aim which is to let Christ’s light shine through me. It is a doorway to ego for me. That I have learned it is best I never enter through that doorway again.

You know as well as I do that we can’t convert anyone no matter how absolute or eloquent our reasoning. So that leaves me with my only options. To stand firm in my convictions, continually seek truth, and to show God’s love to all.

We are speaking the same language my friend, we just have a different approach.

Tiribulus · July 15, 2010, 5:07pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
<<< And most atheists remember the time that they believed in God.[/quote]
No they can’t. Atheism is the ultimate self delusion. In Romans 1, which I’ve quoted already a couple times, Paul tells me:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things

There remains in sinful men (and women, in case that isn’t clear) as well as creation at large universal testimony to the God-hood of God. They are contemporaneously everywhere confronted with it and unable to embrace it and yes that is completely just of God. There is no such thing as an atheist and all their protestations to the contrary serve only as the latest in a very long train of testimony to God’s truth. It is non disprovable and therefor not science as I have never claimed it was. In fact it probably is tautological from the standpoint of unbelief.[/quote]

I know I am arguing like a 4 year old but…yes they do.[/quote]
LOL! Sorry man. Didn’t see this before. You will no doubt be unsurprised to learn that I do not concede your point =]

dmaddox · July 15, 2010, 5:10pm

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
If I came off as degrading I certainly didn’t mean to (though that’s not always out of bounds biblically either). However I claim nothing less than absolute justification for my beliefs as they are based on the person, power and authority of God himself. Not from the standpoint of the philosopher though of which Paul says in 1 Cor. it is foolishness to them
[/quote]
I don’t think you came of as degrading, and I was referring to many others who on this forum in the past were over the top with their view to the point of being down right spiteful. I don’t back down from my views either and I side with your perspective totally. I just take a different approach than you do. :-). My original post was geared more towards the introduction of a strong athiest into the topic who was exhibiting the traits I wrote about.

[quote]haney1 wrote:

I personally find plenty of convincing evidences as well and also know why they are not enough for others.

RC Sproul said:

[quote] “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins”- Ephesians 2:1"

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)- Ephesians 2:5

“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses”- Colossians 2:13

What does “dead in sin” mean?

Notice that in all three of the above Biblical references to the phrase “dead in sin” that the solution to spiritual death is God’s quickening (or regeneration). This means the concept refers to man’s natural state in original sin, apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. To be unspiritual, dead in sin or “of the flesh”, then, refers to man’s natural fallen condition of bondage to corruption prior to the intervention of the Holy Spirit. In 1 Corinthinans 2, it teaches us that persons in this state cannot understand spiritual truths when spoken to them, until the Spirit renews them and gives them understanding.[/quote] Please don’t get me wrong dear brother, but I chose Sproul on purpose. He is correct. It’s quite absolute and pretty much what I’ve been saying. The evidences born of unbelief are just that. They carry weight in the sphere of the fallen where yes our old nature still lives, but they will not be treated by me as equally legitimate or worthy of consideration. Those evidences are the product of sin and while I can acknowledge their apparent weightiness in the eyes of sinners I cannot treat them as anything other than they are. Illegitimate devices of self deception designed as an escape from moral responsibility to God. That’s the reformed view in contrast to the arminian view wherein “dead” doesn’t really mean quite dead. No matter how I say all this in an internet forum it’s gonna appear the wrong way, but I must be honest.
[/quote]

oh no doubt about our perspective on it. I think you have managed to have a view point with extreme conviction but not come of as a jerk about it. I would not be able to pull that off and be loyal to my aim which is to let Christ’s light shine through me. It is a doorway to ego for me. That I have learned it is best I never enter through that doorway again.

You know as well as I do that we can’t convert anyone no matter how absolute or eloquent our reasoning. So that leaves me with my only options. To stand firm in my convictions, continually seek truth, and to show God’s love to all.

We are speaking the same language my friend, we just have a different approach.
[/quote]

We are all different parts of the same body I guess.

Brother_Chris · July 15, 2010, 6:46pm

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
No the Bible is not wrong, it is actually inerrant. However it is limited because of human ability.[/quote]

What do you mean by this?[/quote]

Inerrant = without error.

Human limitations, include wouldn’t know certain scientific equations that hadn’t come around yet, &c. As well the whole days thing days = era back in the day?[/quote]

I’m sorry, Brother Chris, but that is simply not true (that the Bible is without error).

#1
1 Kings 7:23 “He made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.”

Incorrect: Circumference = Pi() x Diameter, which means the line would have to have been over 31 cubits. In order for this to be rounding, it would have had to overstate the amount to ensure that the line did “compass it round about.”

#2
Lev 11:20-21: “All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.”

Incorrect: Fowl do not go upon all four.

#3
Lev 11:6: “And the hare, because he cheweth the cud…”

Incorrect: Hare do not chew the cud.

#4
Deut 14:7: " “…as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof.”

Incorrect: For the hare this is wrong on both counts: Hare donÃ?Â¢??t chew the cud and they do divide the “hoof.”

#5
Jonah 1:17 says, “…Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights”

Incorrect: Matt 12:40 says “…Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly…” whales and fish are not related

#6
Matt 13:31-32: " “the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed whichÃ?Â¢?Ã?Â¦is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown is the greatest among herbs and becometh a tree.”

Incorrect: There are 2 significant errors here: first, there are many smaller seeds, like the orchid seed; and second, mustard plants don’t grow into trees.

#7
Matt 4:8: " Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them."

Incorrect: Unless the world is flat, altitude simply will not help you see all the kingdoms of the earth.

[/quote]

I have an answer for each one of those as those have all been thrown in my face. However, I won’t go into that, because I have found it just is not hospitable.

“Although inerrancy isn’t limited to religious truths which pertain to salvation but may include non-religious assertions by the biblical authors, this doesn’t mean Scripture is an inspired textbook of science or history. Inerrancy extends to what the biblical writers intend to teach, not necessarily to what they assume or presuppose or what isn’t integral to what they assert. In order to distinguish these things, scholars must examine the kind of writing or literary genre the biblical writers employ.”

New Advent : CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Quick Questions (1991)

Basically, you wouldn’t expect the most stringent scientific facts in a poem, or a child’s literary story that symbolizes something more complex. You wouldn’t expect a businessman 2000 years ago to know that a fish and whale is not related. They didn’t have google, so they made assumptions on certain things that were not directly pertaining to their message.

However, those examples come from modern translations, if you look the originals things change.

ephrem · July 15, 2010, 5:19pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …atheism is simply the lack of beliefs in any god. For me, this lack of belief came about naturally after years of contemplation, as the default position, so to say. This thread started out to clear up misconceptions about christianity, but in the end they’re confirmed by you and other posters not as misconceptions, but as reality…
[/quote]
The only beliefs that don’t come naturally to fallen man are authentically Christian ones so again, I understand completely. However, God’s Word cannot fail to accomplish His purpose;
Isaiah 55:8-11
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Our (Christians) success or failure depends entirely on our obedience and not whether anybody believes us. How anybody responds is up to the grace of God by the work of the Holy Spirit. Our job is to love them and tell them. It will ultimately either heighten their judgment or break their hearts and we may never find out which in this life. Either way the Word of God cannot fail.[/quote]

…your reasoning is circular, you do realise that, don’t you?

IrishSteel · July 15, 2010, 5:34pm

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have a few questions on sin. Is there any way I cannot commit sin in the eyes of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam? Is my very existence a sin? If so, why would killing myself also be a sin?[/quote]

I will be differing from the Catholic’s, the Protesting Catholics and the Reformed Protesting Catholics on this answer just a wit bit:

Yes, you can live a sinless live (potential), but you won’t (probability) because at some point we all choose pleasure for self over obedience to God in some area of our life - a choice made in unrestrained free will. it is your first sin that condemns you - nothing else.

No your existence is not a sin - you are born blank, you choose to sin, and thus your continued existence is a sinful existence, until you repent.

Suicide is a form of disobedience, but if you have come to the point that suicide is a possibility - there are many other more serious issues that should be dealt with (including prior sins). The possible sinfulness of your death is the least of your concerns. BTW - if this is something you were asking out of mere interest, cool - if not and you have been thinking about this - please reach out and talk to someone!

Brother_Chris · July 15, 2010, 5:39pm

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Do any believers see the problem with this double standard? Please? Brains, anyone?[/quote]
Nope, not even slightly. No double standard whatsoever, but that’s a brainless guy like me so waddaya expect? God has rendered certain whatever comes to pass, good and evil, without in any way being responsible for evil. That’s even worse huh? [/quote]

Yup. It makes no sense.

If you want to believe it, feel free. But don’t try to pretend like you’re living in the real world as you do.

Oh, and keep talking to the sky wizard in your head… even though, he’s already “rendered certain” whatever will or will not happen, and he wont change his plan, so it doesnt matter what you do or dont ask for, because he’ll do what he wants anyway… except that he’ll always answer your prayers…

Yeah. No sense. Sorry.[/quote]

Straw-man, and if you want to be taken serious, sky wizard, will not get you that creditability.

G-d’s will is for all His children to get to Heaven, not he planned out every single move we make. Yes, he may know our every move, that doesn’t mean he planned it out otherwise how would we be able have free will?

Tiribulus · July 15, 2010, 5:58pm

[quote]haney1 wrote:
<<< A long good post ending with this >>>

We are speaking the same language my friend, we just have a different approach.
[/quote]
OK, I feel better then. Seriously. Written communication leaves much to be desired sometimes. Trust me when I tell you I have not always had the ability to remain so calm with unbelievers. Or fine fellow believers for that matter like brother Irish here who are so wrong about so much (BIG smiley here) I suffered from young prophet syndrome pretty bad for a while. Some will no doubt say I now suffer from old prophet syndrome, but any progress is welcome.

Brother_Chris · July 15, 2010, 6:00pm

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I’m sorry, you were busy making so much sense.

Your all powerful, all loving god allows evil to exist, and will punish his most beloved creations for eternity if they dont think like you do.

He made the earth 6 thousand years ago, then made it so that every reliable form of dating consistantly shows objects to be much older – confusing people into thinking that the bible must be wrong, and condemning them to hell for their conclusion.

He gave humans paradise - then goes out of his way to set up the conditions under which man may easily disobey him and be cast out. Just for shits and giggles, not only does he put the forbidden fruit very close by, he allows the devil to talk eve into eating it. Yup, benevolent as hell.

But, of course, like darkness is the absence of light, and cold of heat, so is evil the absence of god… except that sort of destroys the “omnipresent” part of your sky wizard myth, to suggest there could be a place that god is not.

Also, there is a dome above the earth keeping the waters of heaven out, the sun and moon are in this dome, blah blah blah.

God created plants before the sun, even though plants need the sun to exist. He did this backwards, in a totally impossible way, to combat arguments that the genesis myth is a metaphor. Read that again: because the theory makes no sense, it is more reasonable. Also, god will go that far out of his way, but refuses proof of himself.

Because we already HAVE enough proof, as a poster in this thread said – proof being old, impossible stories that are impossible to verify and wildy rediculous explanations of the world around us. Proof in answered prayers - while the unanswered prayers are not supposed to affect our believing at all.

Sky wizard doesn’t exist. I’ll bet my soul on it. :P[/quote]

Put your soul where your mouth is…Prove that all that exists comes from utter nothingness and I’ll join you…[/quote]

Didn’t say that. I said there is no sky wizard. Higher power beyond our undertanding? Quite possibly.

I love the “Its my sky wizard white man in white robe Zeus inspired character God or its nothingness!” argument.[/quote]

I don’t believe in a sky wizard either. Are you saying you believe in a higher power, just not God as described by the Judeo-Christian traditions?[/quote]

Hm. Its obvious there are things beyond our understanding, forces we can’t see. Even if materialism is true, we cant see all the matter in the universe.

So, yes, there are “higher powers”. These may be sentient, or they may be forces of randomness and chaos. I do not know.

But you’re right, the fact is the Judeo-Christian interepretion, so often shoved down our throats, makes no sense. IF there is a god, he isn’t the all powerful daddy-dom contemporary Christians claim him to be.

At very least, polytheistic religions easily explained the problem of evil: there were good and bad gods, and neither were all powerful. Sometimes good wins, sometimes bad. Hell, even the Old Testament makes sense with its wrathful, angry, vengeful, jealous God.

[/quote]

The G-d of the New Testament and Old are one in the same. G-d of the OT, did not do anything evil, and His character has not changed. However the distance between G-d in the OT made Him seem as He was only wrathful, &c.

BackInAction · July 15, 2010, 6:00pm

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote: