Misconceptions of Christianity

dmaddox · July 15, 2010, 1:34pm

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Little tip, bud: If you have to believe in something before you see it, its bullshit and you’re just lying to yourself.

Sorry to break your heart.[/quote]

Can you see the wind? I guess we should not beleive in the wind, because “its bullshit and you’re just lying to yourself”. We can only see the effects of the wind. I may not be able to see God, but I see the effects of his work.[/quote]

Wow that analogy makes so much sense, because of course I only literally meant see in the sense of having a physical view of – because I certainly cant FEEL WIND AGAINST MY FUCKING SKIN. Yeah?[/quote]

You have some anger issues. What has happened in your life to make you hate God so much?

By the way I can feel God moving in my life. You can not taste the wind, you can hear the wind, you can not smell the wind. Got anything else?[/quote]

Belief in god =/= belief in the wind.

Please, stop. This is painful.[/quote]

I guess the truth is painful.

CappedAndPlanIt · July 15, 2010, 1:37pm

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
So when a man rapes a ten year old girl, we cant blame god, because the man was acting from his free will.

When a man tries to rape a ten year old girl and she manages to get away, that was god acting on the situation and proving his love.

Do any believers see the problem with this double standard? Please? Brains, anyone?
[/quote]

Ahhh, the problem of evil. That’s what this is called. It is the single biggest problem in theistic philosophies. Why does a good God, allow bad things to happen? All I have is theories, intuitions and speculations…Nothing I can prove, so I will spare you. Ultimately I do not know. I know there is evil, I know that it is primarily acted through humans, but I don’t know why.
I also know that the problem does not invalidate God, just because God doesn’t act like people think he should, doesn’t mean all the belief is fake or invalid, and getting all pissed off about it does really help anything.

Further, the presentations of the non-religious prove a clear lack of knowledge of God and religion. I don’t know how to solve that.[/quote]

Answer me this, sincerely: Why is it, that when something, at face value, is thought to be good, it is said to be proof of the existance of god and his benevolence… yet when something, at face value, is thought to be bad, and either the proof of the nonexistance of god, or lack of his benevolence, another interepretation entirely must be made in order to preserve both?

Example:

My crops grew very well, this proves god loves me and is kind! I understand the action and the reasoning for it.

or

My crops failed… clearly god must have some reason I cannot see, which still makes him benevolent, but beyond my understanding.

This just shows that Christians aren’t worried about proof, or reason: crops may grow or crops may fail, good or bad may happen, and either they take the good to mean they are right, or the bad to mean they are right.

Then pompously claim that they see proof of god all the time. Well, yeah, if you’re going to twist anything and everything into “proof of god”, you’re going to see it all the time.

CappedAndPlanIt · July 15, 2010, 1:38pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Little tip, bud: If you have to believe in something before you see it, its bullshit and you’re just lying to yourself.

Sorry to break your heart.[/quote]

Can you see the wind? I guess we should not beleive in the wind, because “its bullshit and you’re just lying to yourself”. We can only see the effects of the wind. I may not be able to see God, but I see the effects of his work.[/quote]

Wow that analogy makes so much sense, because of course I only literally meant see in the sense of having a physical view of – because I certainly cant FEEL WIND AGAINST MY FUCKING SKIN. Yeah?[/quote]

You have some anger issues. What has happened in your life to make you hate God so much?

By the way I can feel God moving in my life. You can not taste the wind, you can hear the wind, you can not smell the wind. Got anything else?[/quote]

Belief in god =/= belief in the wind.

Please, stop. This is painful.[/quote]

I guess the truth is painful.[/quote]

Calling something truth =/= it being true.

CappedAndPlanIt · July 15, 2010, 1:41pm

Tell you what, lets flip a coin. If its heads, god exists and is all loving. If it doesnt, god doesnt exist or isn’t omnipotent benevolent.

Then, no matter what the coin says, you can claim to be right: either you’re proven right by heads, or the tails simply means god refuses to show himself because proof would destroy faith.

Either way you always win and never have to consider the possibilty that you could be wrong.

dmaddox · July 15, 2010, 1:47pm

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Tell you what, lets flip a coin. If its heads, god exists and is all loving. If it doesnt, god doesnt exist or isn’t omnipotent benevolent.

Then, no matter what the coin says, you can claim to be right: either you’re proven right by heads, or the tails simply means god refuses to show himself because proof would destroy faith.

Either way you always win and never have to consider the possibilty that you could be wrong.[/quote]

I have faith that the coin will come up heads. My wife and I did this to decide if we should get married. We flipped it once and it came up heads. We flipped it six more times and all of them came up heads.

If I truely beleived that you would start beleiving in God then I would tell you to flip the coin, but I do not think you would beleive. When it came up heads and you would become a mighty warrior for Christ I would tell you to flip the coin.

I say if it came up heads you would say it was just a flip of a coin and it is nothing more than a coincidence. If it came up tails you would say that it proves that God does not exist.

When you get some change today flip the coin. Let God show you who he is.

Tiribulus · July 15, 2010, 1:48pm

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Yeah, dont take it too personal. Chushin don’t like me from some other threads, and is just using flattering you as a way of taking a shot at me.

Carry on. :)[/quote]
What is it with you man? Dmaddox may be on to sumthin here. Is there some hypocritical religious person in your past that hurt you or are you just worried your education may not turn out to be all you hoped for? I know, I know, It’s got nuthin to do with any of that. You’re just an intelligent objective level headed guy examining all sides on their merit and in the interest of truth you simply cannot suffer anachronistic morons like me to spread their dangerous unscientific delusions unchallenged.

Even though everything I say is the inconsequential long discredited belief system of a bygone era it simply infuriates you that some of us still believe it… because you care?. Your compassionate concern is much appreciated, but quite unnecessary.

Cockney_Blue · July 15, 2010, 1:54pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
<<< And most atheists remember the time that they believed in God.[/quote]
No they can’t. Atheism is the ultimate self delusion. In Romans 1, which I’ve quoted already a couple times, Paul tells me:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things

There remains in sinful men (and women, in case that isn’t clear) as well as creation at large universal testimony to the God-hood of God. They are contemporaneously everywhere confronted with it and unable to embrace it and yes that is completely just of God. There is no such thing as an atheist and all their protestations to the contrary serve only as the latest in a very long train of testimony to God’s truth. It is non disprovable and therefor not science as I have never claimed it was. In fact it probably is tautological from the standpoint of unbelief.[/quote]

I know I am arguing like a 4 year old but…yes they do.

Cockney_Blue · July 15, 2010, 1:59pm

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
These threads are always interesting. They always turn into debates between theists and non-theists (and they get pretty vicious). Here’s the thing, neither side is definitively correct. Theists have no physical evidence of the existence of God and non-theists have no physical evidence for the non-existence of God. Neither side was around during the time of creation/start of everything. So when someone says “you’re wrong”, they aren’t being completely honest with themselves because they are just guessing (along with the rest of us). The best way to go about these discussions is to present your side of the argument with some evidence or logical reasoning and keep an open mind.

[/quote]

No one can definitively rule on the side of theism or atheism, but if you tell me we were created by a pink panda god who spoke to you and told you the world was flat and only 3,000 years old, I’m calling bullshit.

Abstract, universalist, concepts of the divine are impossible to refute or confirm, but specific religious dogma that attempts to describe, in detail, the specifics of the workings of the universe are not. We know Zeus doesn’t throw lighting bolts, it’s not a matter of having faith/belief or lack there of, if you take such a claim seriously.[/quote]

Do you have proof Zeus doesn’t throw lightening bolts? If you can answer this definitively, I’ll agree with you.
[/quote]

On pretty good authority lightning is as a result of a build up of static electricity and a subsequently a discharge of electricity.

So, it’s a pretty good probability that if there is a Zeus, he ain’t chucking lightning bolts…
[/quote]

While I totally agree and highly doubt there every was/is a Zeus, there is always the possibility he is involved unless we know everything from all time. Perhaps a Zeus existed and died out leaving only the lightening we see today. My point is that no matter how likely and logical something is, unless you are aware of every factor for it’s entire existence, you don’t know completely.
[/quote]

And yet we manage to function everyday basically on pure faith. Zeus did exist, but he died a few years ago, he was a friend of mine’s dog.[/quote]

And Jesus works for me as a team leader.

CappedAndPlanIt · July 15, 2010, 1:59pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Yeah, dont take it too personal. Chushin don’t like me from some other threads, and is just using flattering you as a way of taking a shot at me.

Carry on. :)[/quote]
What is it with you man? Dmaddox may be on to sumthin here. Is there some hypocritical religious person in your past that hurt you or are you just worried your education may not turn out to be all you hoped for? I know, I know, It’s got nuthin to do with any of that. You’re just an intelligent objective level headed guy examining all sides on their merit and in the interest of truth you simply cannot suffer anachronistic morons like me to spread their dangerous unscientific delusions unchallenged.

Even though everything I say is the inconsequential long discredited belief system of a bygone era it simply infuriates you that some of us still believe it… because you care?. Your compassionate concern is much appreciated, but quite unnecessary.[/quote]

Because your system of belief is full of nonsense. Then, you claim that I’m a bad person for not agreeing with it, make threats of eternal torment for my inability or unwillingness to agree with things that make no sense.

Also, your nonsense is printed on the money I spend. Politicians are elected based on their apparent agreement with your nonsense. People of differeing sexual orientations are discriminated against based on your nonsense, as were once people of different ethnicities or cultures (did you know that their full name is the Christian White Knights of the KKK?). Women are kept subservient to men, in accordance with your nonsense. Thanks to your nonsense, developments in other areas have been stunted. Because of your nonsense, certain stores do not operate on certain days of the week.

Please don’t pretend like christianity doesn’t exert an effect on my life (as well as the lives of everyone else in america) and my irritation with it must be evidence of some personal problem.

haney1 · July 15, 2010, 1:59pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Yeah, dont take it too personal. Chushin don’t like me from some other threads, and is just using flattering you as a way of taking a shot at me.

Carry on. :)[/quote]
What is it with you man? Dmaddox may be on to sumthin here. Is there some hypocritical religious person in your past that hurt you or are you just worried your education may not turn out to be all you hoped for? I know, I know, It’s got nuthin to do with any of that. You’re just an intelligent objective level headed guy examining all sides on their merit and in the interest of truth you simply cannot suffer anachronistic morons like me to spread their dangerous unscientific delusions unchallenged.

Even though everything I say is the inconsequential long discredited belief system of a bygone era it simply infuriates you that some of us still believe it… because you care?. Your compassionate concern is much appreciated, but quite unnecessary.[/quote]

What I find fascinating about the exchange is the fact that everyone here is a novice at philosophy, but that doesn’t stop the exchange from becoming degrading with a dash of absolute justification of belief on both sides.

Greater minds than ours have wrestled with the philosophy problems and some have found more than enough to convert as well as deconvert. That alone lets you know that the argument is less than settled and staunch believers are no more naive than staunch athiest.

I personally find the evidence for my belief convincing, but I am not ignorant to the reasons why they are not enough for others. It is the absolute position with the degrading tone that becomes odd. That applies to all sides of the discussion.

dmaddox · July 15, 2010, 2:00pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

<<< And most atheists remember the time that they believed in God.

I know I am arguing like a 4 year old but…yes they do.[/quote]

I like your arguing style, and not being sarcastic.

I would like encourage you to read some works by C.S. Lewis. Raised in the church, mother died and became Atheist, then a friend, JRR Tolkein, spoke to him for 10 years about religion, and then became a beleiver again, and wrote many books on the subject. He grew up in England so has a bit of similarity to you. Mere Christianity is one of his best books on this very topic. I need to take my own advice and read more of his books. I read Chronicles of Narnia just recently.

CappedAndPlanIt · July 15, 2010, 2:01pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Tell you what, lets flip a coin. If its heads, god exists and is all loving. If it doesnt, god doesnt exist or isn’t omnipotent benevolent.

Then, no matter what the coin says, you can claim to be right: either you’re proven right by heads, or the tails simply means god refuses to show himself because proof would destroy faith.

Either way you always win and never have to consider the possibilty that you could be wrong.[/quote]

I have faith that the coin will come up heads. My wife and I did this to decide if we should get married. We flipped it once and it came up heads. We flipped it six more times and all of them came up heads.

If I truely beleived that you would start beleiving in God then I would tell you to flip the coin, but I do not think you would beleive. When it came up heads and you would become a mighty warrior for Christ I would tell you to flip the coin.

I say if it came up heads you would say it was just a flip of a coin and it is nothing more than a coincidence. If it came up tails you would say that it proves that God does not exist.

When you get some change today flip the coin. Let God show you who he is.[/quote]

Just flipped. Came up tails.

Cockney_Blue · July 15, 2010, 2:03pm

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

No but you are missing the point. Zeus sets things up to seem like he doesn’t exist as a test of our faith. You are too closed minded with your dogma. If you had a personal relationship with Zeus like I do then you would see how obvious it is. Also, the universe can’t have come from nothing so obviously it was caused during the war between the Gods and the Titans.
[/quote]

I got the point, but you cannot have a relationship with something that does not exist. Has no relevance what so ever, it’s just a Red Herring. We weren’t discussing the existence of Zeus, we were talking about God.
Because one doesn’t exist, doesn’t mean the other doesn’t exist.
It’s really simple, we know “stuff” exists. We know it came from some where. It either came from something or nothing…It’s really that simple.[/quote]

Even were we to suspend logic for a moment and accept that as proof of a god, it is not proof in any way of your god so it adds nothing to the argument about Christianity.

Zeus is just as likely to exist as YHW. As a far wiser person once wrote. We are both Atheist, I just believe in one less god than you do.

CappedAndPlanIt · July 15, 2010, 2:07pm

But all the believers in Zeus saw his effects on the world… they couldnt have been wrong, could they? They even had holy books claiming his word…

Cockney_Blue · July 15, 2010, 2:14pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

<<< And most atheists remember the time that they believed in God.

I know I am arguing like a 4 year old but…yes they do.[/quote]

I like your arguing style, and not being sarcastic.

I would like encourage you to read some works by C.S. Lewis. Raised in the church, mother died and became Atheist, then a friend, JRR Tolkien, spoke to him for 10 years about religion, and then became a believer again, and wrote many books on the subject. He grew up in England so has a bit of similarity to you. Mere Christianity is one of his best books on this very topic. I need to take my own advice and read more of his books. I read Chronicles of Narnia just recently.[/quote]

Have read a lot of C.S. Lewis (and Tolkien) and enjoyed them both. Have you read ‘God is not great’ by Christopher Hitchins. It is a very good read. Where Dawkins annoys me by being far too smug in his books on Religion (he should stick to writing about evolution which he is very good at.) Hitchins just goes for the throat.

cueball · July 15, 2010, 2:20pm

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Yeah, dont take it too personal. Chushin don’t like me from some other threads, and is just using flattering you as a way of taking a shot at me.

Carry on. :)[/quote]
What is it with you man? Dmaddox may be on to sumthin here. Is there some hypocritical religious person in your past that hurt you or are you just worried your education may not turn out to be all you hoped for? I know, I know, It’s got nuthin to do with any of that. You’re just an intelligent objective level headed guy examining all sides on their merit and in the interest of truth you simply cannot suffer anachronistic morons like me to spread their dangerous unscientific delusions unchallenged.

Even though everything I say is the inconsequential long discredited belief system of a bygone era it simply infuriates you that some of us still believe it… because you care?. Your compassionate concern is much appreciated, but quite unnecessary.[/quote]

Because your system of belief is full of nonsense. Then, you claim that I’m a bad person for not agreeing with it, make threats of eternal torment for my inability or unwillingness to agree with things that make no sense.

Also, your nonsense is printed on the money I spend. Politicians are elected based on their apparent agreement with your nonsense. People of differeing sexual orientations are discriminated against based on your nonsense, as were once people of different ethnicities or cultures (did you know that their full name is the Christian White Knights of the KKK?). Women are kept subservient to men, in accordance with your nonsense. Thanks to your nonsense, developments in other areas have been stunted. Because of your nonsense, certain stores do not operate on certain days of the week.

Please don’t pretend like christianity doesn’t exert an effect on my life (as well as the lives of everyone else in america) and my irritation with it must be evidence of some personal problem. [/quote]

I’ve been content to stay out of this discussion thus far, (due to the fact that my reading it and being educated and enlighted due to some of the posters here, to which I am grateful, is serving me better than participating) but I’ll jump in and say that your statement is indeed a misconception of Christianity-that the actions of men dictate what Christianity is.

Please stop using the actions of men, executed in the name of Christianity, as your definition of what Christianity ACTUALLY is. And had you been honestly reading this entire thread, I believe you would have seen this.

Tiribulus · July 15, 2010, 2:33pm

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Either way you always win and never have to consider the possibility that you could be wrong.[/quote]
EUREKA!!! He gets it!!! (At least from the intellectual standpoint of unbelief)

If I set out to prove your existence to you, you would REALLY think I was even nuttier than you do now. Why? Because regardless of anything else there you are. To you it’s the first fact upon which depends all others. I have the God I’ve been talking about living in me. I have His mind (I Corinthians 2:16) When walking in victory I think His thoughts after Him as far as that’s possible for a created man to do. He promises this.

So you see, what is to you ridiculous is to me a self evident fact just like your own existence (which reigns totally supreme in your fallen state of spiritual death) is THE foundational all defining fact for you.

There would be no point addressing you at all if you didn’t believe you existed. (that really WOULD BE idiotic) Likewise to me, there is no point in ANYTHING without reference to Him because He is the first preeminently supreme fact upon which all others depend including you and I. Not only for their existence, but for their meaning and purpose as well. He is with me at all times. As long as I stay in His Word and prayer I can’t help but see it this way.

CappedAndPlanIt · July 15, 2010, 2:27pm

[quote]cueball wrote: