Misconceptions of Christianity

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
541

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Tell you what, lets flip a coin. If its heads, god exists and is all loving. If it doesnt, god doesnt exist or isn’t omnipotent benevolent.

Then, no matter what the coin says, you can claim to be right: either you’re proven right by heads, or the tails simply means god refuses to show himself because proof would destroy faith.

Either way you always win and never have to consider the possibilty that you could be wrong.[/quote]

I have faith that the coin will come up heads. My wife and I did this to decide if we should get married. We flipped it once and it came up heads. We flipped it six more times and all of them came up heads.

If I truely beleived that you would start beleiving in God then I would tell you to flip the coin, but I do not think you would beleive. When it came up heads and you would become a mighty warrior for Christ I would tell you to flip the coin.

I say if it came up heads you would say it was just a flip of a coin and it is nothing more than a coincidence. If it came up tails you would say that it proves that God does not exist.

When you get some change today flip the coin. Let God show you who he is.[/quote]

Just flipped. Came up tails.[/quote]

If it did, you wouldn’t have to tell us.[/quote]

Okay, I’m impartial (not atheist or theist). Flipping coin now…

Interesting, I got heads. Perhaps this means God does exist.

Or more likely, it just a game of chance :slight_smile:

542

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have a few questions on sin. Is there any way I cannot commit sin in the eyes of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam? Is my very existence a sin? If so, why would killing myself also be a sin?[/quote]

I will be differing from the Catholic’s, the Protesting Catholics and the Reformed Protesting Catholics on this answer just a wit bit:

Yes, you can live a sinless live (potential), but you won’t (probability) because at some point we all choose pleasure for self over obedience to God in some area of our life - a choice made in unrestrained free will. it is your first sin that condemns you - nothing else.

No your existence is not a sin - you are born blank, you choose to sin, and thus your continued existence is a sinful existence, until you repent.

Suicide is a form of disobedience, but if you have come to the point that suicide is a possibility - there are many other more serious issues that should be dealt with (including prior sins). The possible sinfulness of your death is the least of your concerns. BTW - if this is something you were asking out of mere interest, cool - if not and you have been thinking about this - please reach out and talk to someone![/quote]

Very interesting. I was taught in our Catholic church and the university that I went to (Jesuits) that we have original sin. It seems like every sect of Christianity is a little different. What type of Christian are you again (Protestant wasn’t it)?

And thank you Irish for your concern. I really appreciate it buddy. No worries though, I have no plans of going anywhere anytime soon. Life is just too interesting right now :slight_smile: My questions were purely conceptual.

543

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Yeah, dont take it too personal. Chushin don’t like me from some other threads, and is just using flattering you as a way of taking a shot at me.

Carry on. :)[/quote]
What is it with you man? Dmaddox may be on to sumthin here. Is there some hypocritical religious person in your past that hurt you or are you just worried your education may not turn out to be all you hoped for? I know, I know, It’s got nuthin to do with any of that. You’re just an intelligent objective level headed guy examining all sides on their merit and in the interest of truth you simply cannot suffer anachronistic morons like me to spread their dangerous unscientific delusions unchallenged.

Even though everything I say is the inconsequential long discredited belief system of a bygone era it simply infuriates you that some of us still believe it… because you care?. Your compassionate concern is much appreciated, but quite unnecessary.[/quote]

Because your system of belief is full of nonsense. Then, you claim that I’m a bad person for not agreeing with it, make threats of eternal torment for my inability or unwillingness to agree with things that make no sense.
[/quote]

You are a bad person, because you are rude and ignorant, while Tirib continues to be cordial with this discussion, and you continue to be rude and condescending. If you were in fact logical you would know that you are making the fallacy of false dichotomy.

[quote]
Also, your nonsense is printed on the money I spend. Politicians are elected based on their apparent agreement with your nonsense. People of differeing sexual orientations are discriminated against based on your nonsense, as were once people of different ethnicities or cultures (did you know that their full name is the Christian White Knights of the KKK?). Women are kept subservient to men, in accordance with your nonsense. Thanks to your nonsense, developments in other areas have been stunted. Because of your nonsense, certain stores do not operate on certain days of the week.

Please don’t pretend like christianity doesn’t exert an effect on my life (as well as the lives of everyone else in america) and my irritation with it must be evidence of some personal problem. [/quote]

Wait, so you are saying Christians (even though our Theology does not agree with it) are just like KKK and Nazi’s because they claim to be like us. Someone of such astute logical ability should know better.

So you are upset that Christians have an influence on society? What should we do, should we lock them in chains and make them slaves and take away their votes?

Women are subservient? I think you are being a little hypocritical, you want to live your life your way, and when women choose to be obedient to a man, like Christians are obedient to G-d and Church? Or Children to parents, you get upset?

Because someone owns a store and believes that people should not work on Sunday/Saturday, it is out fault?

What developments have been stunted?

I’m not sure what this has to do with the argument, but for the time being I’ll entertain you.

544

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …your reasoning is circular, you do realise that, don’t you?
[/quote]
Indeed I do. From the vantage point of the self proclaimed autonomous man it is absolutely subjective and circular. However to your sincere credit you have declared your own position to be subjective. I don’t know if I’ve ever met another person who will say that.

In your case, from where you’re sitting both our viewpoints are subjective. I contend that God is the only true source of objective knowledge there is and that either directly or by faithful implication He explains everything while your view explains nothing. You will no doubt reply that we are both in the same boat only you are the honest one by admitting your subjectivity while I insist on the false comfort of an imaginary deity. To which I reply once again that that’s precisely what I would expect you to say and off we go skipping into the sunset together agreeing to disagree with me continuing to pray for you and you wondering where the hell I went so wrong.

545

Why does it matter if you believe in God or not?
Jesus died for our sins, so I’m absolved. So it’s win-win if you don’t believe.

546

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have a few questions on sin. Is there any way I cannot commit sin in the eyes of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam? Is my very existence a sin? If so, why would killing myself also be a sin?[/quote]

I will be differing from the Catholic’s, the Protesting Catholics and the Reformed Protesting Catholics on this answer just a wit bit:

Yes, you can live a sinless live (potential), but you won’t (probability) because at some point we all choose pleasure for self over obedience to God in some area of our life - a choice made in unrestrained free will. it is your first sin that condemns you - nothing else.

No your existence is not a sin - you are born blank, you choose to sin, and thus your continued existence is a sinful existence, until you repent.

Suicide is a form of disobedience, but if you have come to the point that suicide is a possibility - there are many other more serious issues that should be dealt with (including prior sins). The possible sinfulness of your death is the least of your concerns. BTW - if this is something you were asking out of mere interest, cool - if not and you have been thinking about this - please reach out and talk to someone![/quote]

Very interesting. I was taught in our Catholic church and the university that I went to (Jesuits) that we have original sin. It seems like every sect of Christianity is a little different. What type of Christian are you again (Protestant wasn’t it)?

And thank you Irish for your concern. I really appreciate it buddy. No worries though, I have no plans of going anywhere anytime soon. Life is just too interesting right now :slight_smile: My questions were purely conceptual.[/quote]
Lol if you didn’t catch his joke he says he isn’t catholic , protestant or reformed. However I will let him answer for himself.

547

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

<<< And most atheists remember the time that they believed in God.

I know I am arguing like a 4 year old but…yes they do.[/quote]

I like your arguing style, and not being sarcastic.

I would like encourage you to read some works by C.S. Lewis. Raised in the church, mother died and became Atheist, then a friend, JRR Tolkien, spoke to him for 10 years about religion, and then became a believer again, and wrote many books on the subject. He grew up in England so has a bit of similarity to you. Mere Christianity is one of his best books on this very topic. I need to take my own advice and read more of his books. I read Chronicles of Narnia just recently.[/quote]

Have read a lot of C.S. Lewis (and Tolkien) and enjoyed them both. Have you read ‘God is not great’ by Christopher Hitchins. It is a very good read. Where Dawkins annoys me by being far too smug in his books on Religion (he should stick to writing about evolution which he is very good at.) Hitchins just goes for the throat.[/quote]

I thought this was cool:

548

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have a few questions on sin. Is there any way I cannot commit sin in the eyes of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam? Is my very existence a sin? If so, why would killing myself also be a sin?[/quote]

I am not sure about Judaism or Islam, but in Christianity. No, because of Original Sin. However, if you repent and get baptized, then continue to grow and ask for forgiveness, &c. You’ll be absolved of your sins.[/quote]

Thank you, BC.

I never understood original sin and don’t think I ever will. To me, it makes no sense and always seemed like a loop hole to make us feel guilty.[/quote]

No, I’m a Catholic and I have never felt guilty. No real reason to feel guilty besides to push yourself to be more up right, I suppose. CCC #201: “…sin is the greatest of evils
and an offense against God our Creator, Preserver, and Redeemer, and because mortal sin shuts us out of heaven and condemns us to the eternal pains of hell.”

Basically sin pushes us out of fellowship with God, and we inherent that from our fathers, just like we inherent receding hair lines. :slight_smile:

That does not mean we should feel guilty about it, it is what we are dealt, repent (renew your mind) and baptize (be washed clean and become healthy in G-d’s family). However, the reason I have done all these things is because they are what is right to do, and I know that doing other things are wrong and reconciliation needs to happen.

It is a little difficult to understand, I’ll see if I can find something that explains it a little better.

549

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
<<< I will be differing from the Catholic’s, the Protesting Catholics and the Reformed Protesting Catholics on this answer just a wit bit:[/quote]Aw geeeez. Yes I caught this in your PM too, but now you’ve gone n said it here LOL! You can’t possibly mean this to be taken as a seriously literal assessment. Protesting Catholics? I’m saying all this with a smile BTW.

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Yes, you can live a sinless live (potential), but you won’t (probability) because at some point we all choose pleasure for self over obedience to God in some area of our life[/quote]No he can’t [quote]IrishSteel wrote:- a choice made in unrestrained free will. it is your first sin that condemns you - nothing else.[/quote]You already know I disagree. The will is conceived and born in bondage to the flesh (Yes, I know about Paul’s “I once was alive without he law thing”) The best concise way I know to say this is the will itself due to inherited corruption freely chooses sin every time even in formally non sinful choices. In other words anything not done to the intentional glory of God is selfish sinfulness. Ex. Eating is not sin in itself. Eating so as to sustain yourself in an ongoing life of rebellion against God is. The motivation is what matters.

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
No your existence is not a sin[/quote]True - [quote]IrishSteel wrote: you are born blank, [/quote]Not true. We are born dead. Spiritually stillborn and only the resurrection from actual death to actual life frees the will. [quote]IrishSteel wrote:you choose to sin, and thus your continued existence is a sinful existence, until you repent.[/quote]You account for what I just said about personal resurrection by agreeing except that you hold that each individual has their own personal fall. I may concede the personal fall idea strictly from the standpoint of actual transgressions, but would hasten to add that it is the inevitable manifestation of the nature of Adam passed to us by him.

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Suicide is a form of disobedience, but if you have come to the point that suicide is a possibility - there are many other more serious issues that should be dealt with (including prior sins). The possible sinfulness of your death is the least of your concerns. BTW - if this is something you were asking out of mere interest, cool - if not and you have been thinking about this - please reach out and talk to someone![/quote]I’m pretty sure he was asking out of mere interest so I’ll leave this alone.

This obviously covers practically nothing.

550

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
No the Bible is not wrong, it is actually inerrant. However it is limited because of human ability.[/quote]

What do you mean by this?[/quote]

Inerrant = without error.

Human limitations, include wouldn’t know certain scientific equations that hadn’t come around yet, &c. As well the whole days thing days = era back in the day?[/quote]

I’m sorry, Brother Chris, but that is simply not true (that the Bible is without error).

#1
1 Kings 7:23 “He made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.”

Incorrect: Circumference = Pi() x Diameter, which means the line would have to have been over 31 cubits. In order for this to be rounding, it would have had to overstate the amount to ensure that the line did “compass it round about.”

#2
Lev 11:20-21: “All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.”

Incorrect: Fowl do not go upon all four.

#3
Lev 11:6: “And the hare, because he cheweth the cud…”

Incorrect: Hare do not chew the cud.

#4
Deut 14:7: " “…as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof.”

Incorrect: For the hare this is wrong on both counts: Hare donÃ??Ã?¢??t chew the cud and they do divide the “hoof.”

#5
Jonah 1:17 says, “…Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights”

Incorrect: Matt 12:40 says “…Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly…” whales and fish are not related

#6
Matt 13:31-32: " “the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed whichÃ??Ã?¢?Ã??Ã?¦is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown is the greatest among herbs and becometh a tree.”

Incorrect: There are 2 significant errors here: first, there are many smaller seeds, like the orchid seed; and second, mustard plants don’t grow into trees.

#7
Matt 4:8: " Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them."

Incorrect: Unless the world is flat, altitude simply will not help you see all the kingdoms of the earth.

[/quote]

I have an answer for each one of those as those have all been thrown in my face. However, I won’t go into that, because I have found it just is not hospitable.

“Although inerrancy isn’t limited to religious truths which pertain to salvation but may include non-religious assertions by the biblical authors, this doesn’t mean Scripture is an inspired textbook of science or history. Inerrancy extends to what the biblical writers intend to teach, not necessarily to what they assume or presuppose or what isn’t integral to what they assert. In order to distinguish these things, scholars must examine the kind of writing or literary genre the biblical writers employ.”

Basically, you wouldn’t expect the most stringent scientific facts in a poem, or a child’s literary story that symbolizes something more complex. You wouldn’t expect a businessman 2000 years ago to know that a fish and whale is not related. They didn’t have google, so they made assumptions on certain things that were not directly pertaining to their message. [/quote]

Couldn’t they have made assumptions on the rest of the message as well? If not, I ask you to find one other document of man that is without error. If so, how can we assume anything in the book is truthful?[/quote]

No, at least none that has been proven. Other document of man without error? No, I am not aware of any.

551

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Tell you what, lets flip a coin. If its heads, god exists and is all loving. If it doesnt, god doesnt exist or isn’t omnipotent benevolent.

Then, no matter what the coin says, you can claim to be right: either you’re proven right by heads, or the tails simply means god refuses to show himself because proof would destroy faith.

Either way you always win and never have to consider the possibilty that you could be wrong.[/quote]

I have faith that the coin will come up heads. My wife and I did this to decide if we should get married. We flipped it once and it came up heads. We flipped it six more times and all of them came up heads.

If I truely beleived that you would start beleiving in God then I would tell you to flip the coin, but I do not think you would beleive. When it came up heads and you would become a mighty warrior for Christ I would tell you to flip the coin.

I say if it came up heads you would say it was just a flip of a coin and it is nothing more than a coincidence. If it came up tails you would say that it proves that God does not exist.

When you get some change today flip the coin. Let God show you who he is.[/quote]

Just flipped. Came up tails.[/quote]

If it did, you wouldn’t have to tell us.[/quote]

Okay, I’m impartial (not atheist or theist). Flipping coin now…

Interesting, I got heads. Perhaps this means God does exist.

Or more likely, it just a game of chance :)[/quote]

I think your faith would be stronger if you came to it through reason.

552

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …your reasoning is circular, you do realise that, don’t you?
[/quote]
Indeed I do. From the vantage point of the self proclaimed autonomous man it is absolutely subjective and circular. However to your sincere credit you have declared your own position to be subjective. I don’t know if I’ve ever met another person who will say that.

In your case, from where you’re sitting both our viewpoints are subjective. I contend that God is the only true source of objective knowledge there is and that either directly or by faithful implication He explains everything while your view explains nothing. You will no doubt reply that we are both in the same boat only you are the honest one by admitting your subjectivity while I insist on the false comfort of an imaginary deity. To which I reply once again that that’s precisely what I would expect you to say and off we go skipping into the sunset together agreeing to disagree with me continuing to pray for you and you wondering where the hell I went so wrong.[/quote]

…not quite Tiribulus; your source of religious truth, the bible, is only validated as truth by itself, and nothing else. If i believe that The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe and everything in it, would you consider that objective?

553

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Why does it matter if you believe in God or not?
Jesus died for our sins, so I’m absolved. So it’s win-win if you don’t believe.[/quote]

I am not sure who told you that, but…

Matt 7:21
Not every one who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 19:16-19
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

John 3:1-7
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.” In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit [Baptism]. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.’ [This entire chapter is about baptizing, John the Baptist, “ceremonial washing”, etc.] (this will get the Protestants flustered)

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. [Charity is greater than Faith!]

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which WORKETH BY LOVE.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For BY grace are ye saved THROUGH faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and LABOUR OF LOVE, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

I think that is enough for today.

554

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …your reasoning is circular, you do realise that, don’t you?
[/quote]
Indeed I do. From the vantage point of the self proclaimed autonomous man it is absolutely subjective and circular. However to your sincere credit you have declared your own position to be subjective. I don’t know if I’ve ever met another person who will say that.

In your case, from where you’re sitting both our viewpoints are subjective. I contend that God is the only true source of objective knowledge there is and that either directly or by faithful implication He explains everything while your view explains nothing. You will no doubt reply that we are both in the same boat only you are the honest one by admitting your subjectivity while I insist on the false comfort of an imaginary deity. To which I reply once again that that’s precisely what I would expect you to say and off we go skipping into the sunset together agreeing to disagree with me continuing to pray for you and you wondering where the hell I went so wrong.[/quote]

…not quite Tiribulus; your source of religious truth, the bible, is only validated as truth by itself, and nothing else. If i believe that The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe and everything in it, would you consider that objective?
[/quote]No. That would be a delusion because flying spaghetti monsters don’t exist. =] The God of the bible not only exists, but is responsible for the existence of all else. Your flying spaghetti monster is merely vanilla subjectivity by another name. You reply that it’s no different than my God… hey… here comes that sunset again.

555

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …your reasoning is circular, you do realise that, don’t you?
[/quote]
Indeed I do. From the vantage point of the self proclaimed autonomous man it is absolutely subjective and circular. However to your sincere credit you have declared your own position to be subjective. I don’t know if I’ve ever met another person who will say that.

In your case, from where you’re sitting both our viewpoints are subjective. I contend that God is the only true source of objective knowledge there is and that either directly or by faithful implication He explains everything while your view explains nothing. You will no doubt reply that we are both in the same boat only you are the honest one by admitting your subjectivity while I insist on the false comfort of an imaginary deity. To which I reply once again that that’s precisely what I would expect you to say and off we go skipping into the sunset together agreeing to disagree with me continuing to pray for you and you wondering where the hell I went so wrong.[/quote]

…not quite Tiribulus; your source of religious truth, the bible, is only validated as truth by itself, and nothing else. If i believe that The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe and everything in it, would you consider that objective?
[/quote]No. That would be a delusion because flying spaghetti monsters don’t exist. =] The God of the bible not only exists, but is responsible for the existence of all else. Your flying spaghetti monster is merely vanilla subjectivity by another name. You reply that it’s no different than my God… hey… here comes that sunset again.
[/quote]

…and then they say god works in mysterious ways!

556

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Why does it matter if you believe in God or not?
Jesus died for our sins, so I’m absolved. So it’s win-win if you don’t believe.[/quote]

The Bible is very clear - salvation is universally available - but individually applied . . .

557

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have a few questions on sin. Is there any way I cannot commit sin in the eyes of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam? Is my very existence a sin? If so, why would killing myself also be a sin?[/quote]

I will be differing from the Catholic’s, the Protesting Catholics and the Reformed Protesting Catholics on this answer just a wit bit:

Yes, you can live a sinless live (potential), but you won’t (probability) because at some point we all choose pleasure for self over obedience to God in some area of our life - a choice made in unrestrained free will. it is your first sin that condemns you - nothing else.

No your existence is not a sin - you are born blank, you choose to sin, and thus your continued existence is a sinful existence, until you repent.

Suicide is a form of disobedience, but if you have come to the point that suicide is a possibility - there are many other more serious issues that should be dealt with (including prior sins). The possible sinfulness of your death is the least of your concerns. BTW - if this is something you were asking out of mere interest, cool - if not and you have been thinking about this - please reach out and talk to someone![/quote]

Very interesting. I was taught in our Catholic church and the university that I went to (Jesuits) that we have original sin. It seems like every sect of Christianity is a little different. What type of Christian are you again (Protestant wasn’t it)?

And thank you Irish for your concern. I really appreciate it buddy. No worries though, I have no plans of going anywhere anytime soon. Life is just too interesting right now :slight_smile: My questions were purely conceptual.[/quote]
Lol if you didn’t catch his joke he says he isn’t catholic , protestant or reformed. However I will let him answer for himself.[/quote]

LOL - yeah, having some fun at my brothers’ expense - I am Baptist in my doctrinal stand and heritage, thus neither protestant or Catholic

558

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
<<< I will be differing from the Catholic’s, the Protesting Catholics and the Reformed Protesting Catholics on this answer just a wit bit:[/quote]Aw geeeez. Yes I caught this in your PM too, but now you’ve gone n said it here LOL! You can’t possibly mean this to be taken as a seriously literal assessment. Protesting Catholics? I’m saying all this with a smile BTW.

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Yes, you can live a sinless live (potential), but you won’t (probability) because at some point we all choose pleasure for self over obedience to God in some area of our life[/quote]No he can’t [quote]IrishSteel wrote:- a choice made in unrestrained free will. it is your first sin that condemns you - nothing else.[/quote]You already know I disagree. The will is conceived and born in bondage to the flesh (Yes, I know about Paul’s “I once was alive without he law thing”) The best concise way I know to say this is the will itself due to inherited corruption freely chooses sin every time even in formally non sinful choices. In other words anything not done to the intentional glory of God is selfish sinfulness. Ex. Eating is not sin in itself. Eating so as to sustain yourself in an ongoing life of rebellion against God is. The motivation is what matters.

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
No your existence is not a sin[/quote]True - [quote]IrishSteel wrote: you are born blank, [/quote]Not true. We are born dead. Spiritually stillborn and only the resurrection from actual death to actual life frees the will. [quote]IrishSteel wrote:you choose to sin, and thus your continued existence is a sinful existence, until you repent.[/quote]You account for what I just said about personal resurrection by agreeing except that you hold that each individual has their own personal fall. I may concede the personal fall idea strictly from the standpoint of actual transgressions, but would hasten to add that it is the inevitable manifestation of the nature of Adam passed to us by him.

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Suicide is a form of disobedience, but if you have come to the point that suicide is a possibility - there are many other more serious issues that should be dealt with (including prior sins). The possible sinfulness of your death is the least of your concerns. BTW - if this is something you were asking out of mere interest, cool - if not and you have been thinking about this - please reach out and talk to someone![/quote]I’m pretty sure he was asking out of mere interest so I’ll leave this alone.

This obviously covers practically nothing.
[/quote]

Yes, I had to do it - lol!

Tirib and I both understand that we do not disagree on the doctrines themselves per se, but rather on the exent of the affect of Adam’s sin. This is a fine line and some Christians are comfortable on one side, some on the line and some on the other side. As a Biblical literalist I have a specific view, but leave room for my brothers who take a harsher tack on this subject.

ok back to training . . .

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[quote]ephrem wrote:

…and then they say god works in mysterious ways![/quote]

Jesus loves you.

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WOW! 5 pages of comments since yesterday…

I think I didn’t make myself understood about a common misconception. The person (a drunk in this case) who says they don’t go to church because of all the hypocrites is being fooled. He wouldn’t go anyway. (BTW, That’s like saying only well people can be at doctor.) OF COURSE there are imperfect people at church! Are there any other kind? The people going to church are misunderstanding too, if they think that going makes them “good”. The church shouldn’t make sin comfortable, but welcoming sinners are kinda the point. Duh! Undoubtedly there are some hypocrites, but just because you go doesn’t mean you think you are perfect and better than everyone else.

I DO love Jesus, but it is a struggle to go to church for those very reasons: fake people shaking my hand and smiling, but cutting you off and flipping you off when they leave. I go (not as often as I should) out of obedience to “forsake not the assembling of believers”, and like them or not, they are believers. Guess I need to put aside their sins, start looking at my own, and just get over it. There are imperfect churches too, and there have been for 2,000 years if you read Revelations. I think it’s not about being perfect.