[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…“god did it”. That answers everything, but explains nothing: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Gravity_as_an_entropic_force[/quote]
You’re trying to use logic with people who believe in a being that operates outside of logic. It’s imposible.[/quote]
No use in using logic with a person who believes humans created logic.
[quote]weby wrote:
Hi this is a question for any knowledgeable Christian
Christians believe that God took human form as Jesus Christ and that God is present today through the work of the Holy Spirit and evident in the actions of believers, so when Jesus died and was resurrected, who looked after the universe in the period in between?
This question is not meant to offend anyone, i truly want to know the answer.[/quote]
G-d and the Holy Ghost, only the G-d-Man left for three days. The other two never left our presence.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…“god did it”. That answers everything, but explains nothing: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Gravity_as_an_entropic_force[/quote]
You’re trying to use logic with people who believe in a being that operates outside of logic. It’s imposible.[/quote]
No use in using logic with a person who believes humans created logic.[/quote]
I think logic exists without humans.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…“god did it”. That answers everything, but explains nothing: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Gravity_as_an_entropic_force[/quote]
You’re trying to use logic with people who believe in a being that operates outside of logic. It’s imposible.[/quote]
No use in using logic with a person who believes humans created logic.[/quote]
I think logic exists without humans.[/quote]
Well at least you are smarter than some of my philosophy teachers.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …explain god to me…
[/quote]
I will do further what I can, which will most probably not be what you want, but in what way and why? What do you want to know and why do you care?
Lemme guess. It’s because you find weirdos like me (us), who can appear to be pretty sharp on one hand, but unhinged lobotomized dupes on the other so interesting that your quest for human understanding just keeps you coming back for more. Maybe the best guinea pig you’ve had yet and always at the ready? You read or watch something that tells you people like me should say X, Y or Z in response to A, B or C so you drop in and see if the prediction holds up which it either does or is close enough to leave you smiling and shaking your head, wondering if what it would take to release someone from so thorough a case of self induced delusion.[/quote]
…i ask because god is, by definition, undefineable and therefore unknowable. What we may know of him through the written word is always a mere approximation of his true splendor and mystery. That is why saying, “god did it” is an answer to everything, but explains nothing…
…i keep coming back to pookies remark, “why explain the mystery of life with an even bigger mystery?” Why indeed?
[/quote]God being exhaustively definable and knowable to Himself alone is not the same as being undefinable and unknowable to anyone else. In fact He is both, to you as well as myself only in opposite ways.
You make a life’s mission out of running from a God (trying anyway) you cannot avoid, but cannot see and I embrace Him everywhere, including the cereal I’m eating on this carb day. And the bowl and the spoon and the milk and… oh nevermind. I hasten to emphasize once again that I embrace Him not because I am smarter or better than you are, but because while I was yet just as dead as you, He made me alive in Him. The praise is all His I assure you.
Look friend, until we longer have drug recalls due to unforeseen side effects and until we quit revising astronomical theory, EVERYTHING ultimately remains a mystery. We have no frickin clue apart from God almighty why anything is what it is which is fine if people would just own that.
Where did the brain meltingly complex human genome (or any genome) come from? It was in essence ultimately an accident. Where did light with it’s oh so curious composition of waves and particles come from? Not sure really, but wherever it came from God didn’t do it and especially that science fiction reject Christian God. We may not be sure of anything else, but that much we are absolutely certain of. Singularity be praised.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< I think logic exists without humans.[/quote]
So do I
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …explain god to me…
[/quote]
I will do further what I can, which will most probably not be what you want, but in what way and why? What do you want to know and why do you care?
Lemme guess. It’s because you find weirdos like me (us), who can appear to be pretty sharp on one hand, but unhinged lobotomized dupes on the other so interesting that your quest for human understanding just keeps you coming back for more. Maybe the best guinea pig you’ve had yet and always at the ready? You read or watch something that tells you people like me should say X, Y or Z in response to A, B or C so you drop in and see if the prediction holds up which it either does or is close enough to leave you smiling and shaking your head, wondering if what it would take to release someone from so thorough a case of self induced delusion.[/quote]
…i ask because god is, by definition, undefineable and therefore unknowable. What we may know of him through the written word is always a mere approximation of his true splendor and mystery. That is why saying, “god did it” is an answer to everything, but explains nothing…
…i keep coming back to pookies remark, “why explain the mystery of life with an even bigger mystery?” Why indeed?
[/quote]God being exhaustively definable and knowable to Himself alone is not the same as being undefinable and unknowable to anyone else. In fact He is both, to you as well as myself only in opposite ways.
You make a life’s mission out of running from a God (trying anyway) you cannot avoid, but cannot see and I embrace Him everywhere, including the cereal I’m eating on this carb day. And the bowl and the spoon and the milk and… oh nevermind. I hasten to emphasize once again that I embrace Him not because I am smarter or better than you are, but because while I was yet just as dead as you, He made me alive in Him. The praise is all His I assure you.
Look friend, until we longer have drug recalls due to unforeseen side effects and until we quit revising astronomical theory, EVERYTHING ultimately remains a mystery. We have no frickin clue apart from God almighty why anything is what it is which is fine if people would just own that.
Where did the brain meltingly complex human genome (or any genome) come from? It was in essence ultimately an accident. Where did light with it’s oh so curious composition of waves and particles come from? Not sure really, but wherever it came from God didn’t do it and especially that science fiction reject Christian God. We may not be sure of anything else, but that much we are absolutely certain of. Singularity be praised.
[/quote]
…i’m not running from god. I’m running from the god you make him out to be. For me, god is the ultimate questionmark; something the word god can’t cover. Something that does not need praise, prayer or veneration. It is empty, …for lack of a better word.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…well okay. I will take the position that religous beliefs fuel, and are firmly based on/in, emotion. Take emotion out of the religious equation and you’re left with very little. I’m not saying that’s the case with you, but look at pentacostals and evangelists; they can only thrive because it relies on emotion for impact. Emotion is a vital component of the religious experience…
[/quote]
I understand what you are getting at, if you are talking about those Christian denominations that are of those names. Yes, that makes sense where you would get that idea. However, that is not my religion and I am not sure how you would go ahead an make an apologetic argument for it since I do not believe that is the correct way to do things.
However, when I say we have ways of discerning, I mean we actually have set practices for discernment. Check out: http://www.ccr.org.au/discern.html - based on S. Ignatius’ Discernment.[/quote]
…this jumped out: “When someone comes to experience the reality of the spiritual world and discovers that God is a personal being who is vitally interested in every aspect of their life, (…)” The rest reads like a manual for selfhypnosis setting-up conditions that’ll lead to preset experiences, very nifty…
…however, a personal being? Oddly enough, i’ve never seen god refered to being personal like this before, altough it should’ve been obvious to me that god would be perceived as such. It makes it even harder to fathom how one can believe the creator of everything and anything is a personal being. Anyway that’s neither here nor there…
…question: does everything i say, or any link that i post, just reinforce what you already believe? Because, somehow, nothing that’s said by the believers in the various threads made me reconsider my position, eventhough i learned a lot from you [plural]…
…if by logic you mean order, i think you’re correct…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< For me, >>> (or, to me)[/quote]
And there is that fatal 2 word self condemning declaration. God created in my image and likeness just like in Romans 1.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…well okay. I will take the position that religous beliefs fuel, and are firmly based on/in, emotion. Take emotion out of the religious equation and you’re left with very little. I’m not saying that’s the case with you, but look at pentacostals and evangelists; they can only thrive because it relies on emotion for impact. Emotion is a vital component of the religious experience…
[/quote]
I understand what you are getting at, if you are talking about those Christian denominations that are of those names. Yes, that makes sense where you would get that idea. However, that is not my religion and I am not sure how you would go ahead an make an apologetic argument for it since I do not believe that is the correct way to do things.
However, when I say we have ways of discerning, I mean we actually have set practices for discernment. Check out: http://www.ccr.org.au/discern.html - based on S. Ignatius’ Discernment.[/quote]
…this jumped out: “When someone comes to experience the reality of the spiritual world and discovers that God is a personal being who is vitally interested in every aspect of their life, (…)” The rest reads like a manual for selfhypnosis setting-up conditions that’ll lead to preset experiences, very nifty…
…however, a personal being? Oddly enough, i’ve never seen god refered to being personal like this before, altough it should’ve been obvious to me that god would be perceived as such. It makes it even harder to fathom how one can believe the creator of everything and anything is a personal being. Anyway that’s neither here nor there…
…question: does everything i say, or any link that i post, just reinforce what you already believe? Because, somehow, nothing that’s said by the believers in the various threads made me reconsider my position, eventhough i learned a lot from you [plural]…
[/quote]
The discernment stuff was interesting - I had never read that before. However, I agree with ephrem. It’s really just a variation of self-hypnosis or meditation techniques. And at the risk of offending you, Chris, while I was reading that stuff the whole Star Wars saga came to mind - use the Force, Luke, don’t give in to hate. Interesting, nonetheless.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< However, when I say we have ways of discerning, I mean we actually have set practices for discernment. Check out: http://www.ccr.org.au/discern.html - based on S. Ignatius’ Discernment.[/quote]
OK, I have to be honest. This is pretty close to my experience if I were to attempt to put it in to words. Every point.
[quote]St Teresa and Discernment
St Teresa of Avila also teaches us about discernment. Her approach is somewhat different, and is not the systematic approach of Ignatius, but she adds further insights in relation to “hearing” words which may be from God. She speaks of three signs: first, the sense of power and authority that these “locutions” have; second, the great tranquillity that dwells in the soul; third, â??these words do not vanish from the memory for a very long time, some indeed never vanish at all.â??
She also gives other reasons we can be sure the locutions are from God: first, they are “very much clearer than others;” second, “the soul has not been thinking of what it hears - I mean the voice comes unexpectedly, sometimes even during a conversation;” third, “in genuine locutions the soul seems to be hearing something, whereas in locutions invented by the imagination someone seems to be composing bit by bit what the soul wishes to hear;” fourth, “one single word may contain a world of meaning such as the understanding alone could never put rapidly into human language;” fifth, “much more can be understood than the words themselves convey.”
Teresa also offers sound advice for those who might think too much of themselves because God speaks to them:
Do not think that, even if your locutions come from God, you will for that reason be any better. After all, He talked a great deal with the Pharisees. Any good you may gain will depend upon how you profit by what you hear (The Interior Castle, Sixth Mansion, Chapter III).[/quote]
I didn’t go too much for Ignatius’s formulas. Seriously, though I’d be lying if I didn’t say that what she here relates including the unmistakable impression of much more meaning than the mere form of the language involved should allow is a pretty good description. Her first 3 signs are also right on.
In my case the clearest communications usually come not when I ask (though sometimes), but when I NEED it and when it does come I also immediately know why it didn’t come when I asked. Sometimes I’ll be in mid sentence, these are almost always when I’m talking to my wife about something, and my voice will just stop and here are these “locutions” simply asserting themselves on my consciousness.
Speaking of my wife, here’s something that will really have you guys writing me off as a nutcase. There have been a few instances during intimacy, especially when we were younger where it was “do this, like this, right there. She’ll love it”. Very easy and quick obedience to those =]
I don’t know what it means that a catholic women has given the best description of the spirit of discernment I think I’ve ever read, but there it is.
I should throw in that this isn’t like a daily occurrence, but the sense of His presence is constant. Will this convince anybody here of anything? Probably not. They’ll just marvel at the accidental human minds incredible capacity for self deception. That’s OK, we’ll just keep prayin for em.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
In my case the clearest communications usually come not when I ask (though sometimes), but when I NEED it and when it does come I also immediately know why it didn’t come when I asked. Sometimes I’ll be in mid sentence, these are almost always when I’m talking to my wife about something, and my voice will just stop and here are these “locutions” simply asserting themselves on my consciousness.
Speaking of my wife, here’s something that will really have you guys writing me off as a nutcase. There have been a few instances during intimacy, especially when we were younger where it was “do this, like this, right there. She’ll love it”. Very easy and quick obedience to those =]
[/quote]
Dude, you heard voices during sex? No joke, but if this happened to me I would be very concerned. You’ve stopped in mid-sentence because of locutions? These almost sound like simple partial seizures.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…well okay. I will take the position that religous beliefs fuel, and are firmly based on/in, emotion. Take emotion out of the religious equation and you’re left with very little. I’m not saying that’s the case with you, but look at pentacostals and evangelists; they can only thrive because it relies on emotion for impact. Emotion is a vital component of the religious experience…
[/quote]
I understand what you are getting at, if you are talking about those Christian denominations that are of those names. Yes, that makes sense where you would get that idea. However, that is not my religion and I am not sure how you would go ahead an make an apologetic argument for it since I do not believe that is the correct way to do things.
However, when I say we have ways of discerning, I mean we actually have set practices for discernment. Check out: http://www.ccr.org.au/discern.html - based on S. Ignatius’ Discernment.[/quote]
…this jumped out: “When someone comes to experience the reality of the spiritual world and discovers that God is a personal being who is vitally interested in every aspect of their life, (…)” The rest reads like a manual for selfhypnosis setting-up conditions that’ll lead to preset experiences, very nifty…
…however, a personal being? Oddly enough, i’ve never seen god refered to being personal like this before, altough it should’ve been obvious to me that god would be perceived as such. It makes it even harder to fathom how one can believe the creator of everything and anything is a personal being. Anyway that’s neither here nor there…
…question: does everything i say, or any link that i post, just reinforce what you already believe? Because, somehow, nothing that’s said by the believers in the various threads made me reconsider my position, eventhough i learned a lot from you [plural]…
[/quote]
Well, I’ll say this. There is a good reason why the Catholic Church says we are supposed to know the Truth through reason and faith. Without the gift of faith, well you are just not going to be as solid in your belief. Man cannot convert man, that is the Father’s job. However, we can use our reason to justify our position none the less.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
In my case the clearest communications usually come not when I ask (though sometimes), but when I NEED it and when it does come I also immediately know why it didn’t come when I asked. Sometimes I’ll be in mid sentence, these are almost always when I’m talking to my wife about something, and my voice will just stop and here are these “locutions” simply asserting themselves on my consciousness.
Speaking of my wife, here’s something that will really have you guys writing me off as a nutcase. There have been a few instances during intimacy, especially when we were younger where it was “do this, like this, right there. She’ll love it”. Very easy and quick obedience to those =]
[/quote]
Dude, you heard voices during sex? No joke, but if this happened to me I would be very concerned. You’ve stopped in mid-sentence because of locutions? These almost sound like simple partial seizures.
[/quote]
No voices. Nothing audible. I did my best to explain it. It’s like crystal clear thoughts that you didn’t think yourself. Believe me when I tell you your concern is entirely unfounded in our case. Quite the contrary. Instructions from the designer cannot be improved upon. Partial seizures huh? LOL! Nah, nothing so dramatic or demonstrative.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…well okay. I will take the position that religous beliefs fuel, and are firmly based on/in, emotion. Take emotion out of the religious equation and you’re left with very little. I’m not saying that’s the case with you, but look at pentacostals and evangelists; they can only thrive because it relies on emotion for impact. Emotion is a vital component of the religious experience…
[/quote]
I understand what you are getting at, if you are talking about those Christian denominations that are of those names. Yes, that makes sense where you would get that idea. However, that is not my religion and I am not sure how you would go ahead an make an apologetic argument for it since I do not believe that is the correct way to do things.
However, when I say we have ways of discerning, I mean we actually have set practices for discernment. Check out: http://www.ccr.org.au/discern.html - based on S. Ignatius’ Discernment.[/quote]
…this jumped out: “When someone comes to experience the reality of the spiritual world and discovers that God is a personal being who is vitally interested in every aspect of their life, (…)” The rest reads like a manual for selfhypnosis setting-up conditions that’ll lead to preset experiences, very nifty…
…however, a personal being? Oddly enough, i’ve never seen god refered to being personal like this before, altough it should’ve been obvious to me that god would be perceived as such. It makes it even harder to fathom how one can believe the creator of everything and anything is a personal being. Anyway that’s neither here nor there…
…question: does everything i say, or any link that i post, just reinforce what you already believe? Because, somehow, nothing that’s said by the believers in the various threads made me reconsider my position, eventhough i learned a lot from you [plural]…
[/quote]
The discernment stuff was interesting - I had never read that before. However, I agree with ephrem. It’s really just a variation of self-hypnosis or meditation techniques. And at the risk of offending you, Chris, while I was reading that stuff the whole Star Wars saga came to mind - use the Force, Luke, don’t give in to hate. Interesting, nonetheless.[/quote]
Interesting enough, Star Wars has direct roots in a great heresy. Manicheanism.
Very good Chris. I had forgotten all about Manichaeism and the Gnostics though I did some studying on Valentinus back in the day. Yes that whole world of thought was indeed quite heretical. Actually it still survives in various forms in Christian Science, Unity School, and the faithites like Copeland, Hagan and Capps.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< For me, >>> (or, to me)[/quote]
And there is that fatal 2 word self condemning declaration. God created in my image and likeness just like in Romans 1.[/quote]
…make no mistake: man made god in his own image. Bronze age goatherders who knew very little about their own planet, solarsystem and the universe except for their imaginings: you believe their beliefs. The Romans perfected the mind-control mechanics et voilá: the perfect religion was born…