Misconceptions of Christianity 2

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Lv 19:17 - You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him.[/quote]
I don’t.
[/quote]

Not what you said…There were many others I just don’t have time to gather them all. Considering last time I did, you just pissed on it and went on an anti-Catholic rant, it’s pretty pointless.

Really it won’t be good? Or you don’t have any real answers or proof, or they are flat out lies and hate based on nothing. Scripture carries no weight with me? What? I read scripture all the time, and I don’t have to justify myself to you, I don’t hate your church. I have been to an all black Baptist church before and enjoyed the experience. I was inspired by their faith, but they showed no ill will. I call you out now, prove this supposed evil, use scripture, facts and/ or logic. It’s to your shame if you cannot do it.
You cannot just say the things you said with no backup. You have provided no proof what-so-ever. So it must be a blind irrational hate, you plan on carrying to your grave with no backing? Sorry, but that’s just sad.

Why are you so obsessed with a building? It’s Cathedral first, second, it’s a country unto itself, and it has been built up over time through out history. What’s the big deal. Blow up the Vatican, we’ll still have a Church. I live in the bible belt, the biggest buildings with the largest swathes of land are Baptist Churches. So what? If the building makes the church, the church isn’t worth dogshit. I say, get over it. It’s a big beautiful, historical, and Holy place. I haven’t seen God begrudge opulent structures dedicated to Him. He didn’t in the OT or the NT. The Vatican and will be gone one day, just as every temple before. So what, the Church remains.

Was making something up out of thin air based you your hatred, have any kind of point? What was the point of the above? It doesn’t exist, it proves nothing but that you have hate issues.

[quote]
I’ll take this, Romans 10:8-13

But I have no “canon lawyer” to explain to me that the faithful also require a mountain of ceremony while Aborigines need to not even REALLY call on His name. I know, there’s more than one way to know Christ right? God almighty that’s a damnable lie. People are perishing because of it. I still have some of my biblical refutations for your attempts to establish this from scripture, but they won’t do any good. If what I’m saying were true this is anything but hate. I KNOW, it’s not, but I believe it is and my intention, which is what should be measured since they’re my words is not hateful to you in the least.[/quote]

I am 100% on board with the Romans quote. I don’t see how this proves the Catholic Church is evil or satan’s tool or any justification for your hate.

There is plenty of ceremony and pomp and circumstance in evangelical traditions as well. I don’t see how that proves a damn thing.

There are more ways to know Christ then to ram a bible down so one’s throat and tell them “Read it or be damned”. Further, I proved it with scripture; yet, you did not or cannot refute it. So you rant aimlessly, with out cause or reason. This should be alarming to rational thought.

I cannot believe, somebody who claims to be a Christian, would harbor so much hate for fellow Christians. To be so small minded in matters of faith makes me thing you do not understand this stuff. When I said some people can read the Bible and not understand it, I was talking about you. This hate you have is your burden and your own crushing weight that you give as much credence as one would their own child, swearing to carry it, no matter what, to your grave. That is a sad, sad thing.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a second post of mine disappeared. It was only a picture of catholic clergy giving a sieg heil; totally on topic as far as i’m concerned. If anyone felt it was inappropiate, we can talk about it, just don’t sneak around…

[/quote]

This has been discussed. 1933 / '34, it wasn’t apparent Hitler was a bad guy yet, he promised the world, like obama :). Had the picture been taken in 1944-45 with out the gun to the head, then I have an issue. Lot’s of priests and laity were cooked in those ovens.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
In conclusion, to hate the Catholic Church is to hate the Catholics, or its Creator, militant, suffering, and triumphant. Just like you cannot hate any other corporation without hating its owner/creator, and employees.[/quote]

This is a bit off-topic, but not entirely. What you are saying implies that I can’t dislike american foreign policy without disliking americans or hate the treatment of women in the muslim world without hating categorically all muslim men. In fact, it would then be impossible to hate the sin and love the sinner.
I would say, that while it is a common human weakness to behave and think in this way, there is nothing that forces it on a person, it is totally possible, a tad difficult maybe but totally possible, to hate the Catholic Church as an institution and still take catholics as they come, one by one. But this is a sidenote, Tirib stands for his own words, I’m not commenting on that.[/quote]

No it means you can’t hate America and everything about it and claim you don’t mean it personally, using your analogy. He mentioned no policy or stance of the church, he just hates it and will do so until he dies…With out rhyme or reason. Even Catholics have issues with some policies from time to time, but this is in the family and is in active discussion. We don’t go hating the whole thing because of one encyclical or something we don’t like. It’s a family, families fight sometimes, but we always love in the end.

I cannot believe, somebody who claims to be a Christian, would harbor so much hate for fellow Christians. To be so small minded in matters of faith makes me thing you do not understand this stuff. When I said some people can read the Bible and not understand it, I was talking about you. This hate you have is your burden and your own crushing weight that you give as much credence as one would their own child, swearing to carry it, no matter what, to your grave. That is a sad, sad thing.
[/quote]

From an onlooker reading this whole thing allows me to see the biggest issue. Jesus said several times you will “know them by there fruits”. In commenting about someone on a forum such as this and not seeing the tracks in the road so to speak how can I judge them?
I learned that taking a snapshot of someones life and making judgment based on that is wrong. Now taking a video of there life and seeing that they my fall short at times but has a repentant heart toward God and man tells me much of said life.
It is true that Jesus said He is the “ONLY WAY” and I agree 100%. Paul says about Jesus “He is all and in all”. Jesus did not come to establish just a church but a Kingdom for eternity which He alone is king. “Repent for the KINGDOM is at hand” as he offered His hand of fellowship to the lost.
We should never boast of our associations of religion more than we boast of our relationship with the only one who can save me from the WRATH OF GOD. Just sayin

[quote]<<< Brother Chris wrote:And maybe you have completely ignored this, but THE CHURCH IS MADE UP OF PEOPLE NOT BUILDINGS EVEN THOUGH OUR BUILDINGS ARE COMMONLY REFERRED TO AS CHURCHES, WHEN SPEAKING OF “THE CHURCH” IT IS THE PRIESTHOOD, THE HIERARCHY, THE LAITY, THE SUFFERING, AND THE TRIUMPHANT, NOT THE FUCKING BUILDING. >>>[/quote]One last time gentlemen. St. Peter’s Basilica (the current one) was financed by extorting money through the sale of indulgences to simple dirt poor lay people on the ghoulish promise of relieving their departed loved ones from the torments of purgatory. This is common knowledge that the “church” doesn’t even deny. That is theft, fraud and greed of the most heartless variety imaginable. That’s not even mentioning the nauseating ostentation of the thing itself in plain stark contrast to everything the NT church preached and was.

These are precisely the characteristics one would expect from an evil corrupt organization attempting to pass itself off as a church of Christ. We see it all the time. TV preachers promising_______________if only you give them money to live like kings. Except when they get caught they are discredited and lose the fruits of their licentious labor. Not Rome though. She says she’s repented, but 500 years later still lives in and operates out of that monstrous palace built on theft, fraud and greed. That would be like Jimmy Swaggart repenting of immorality from room 69 of the Rassel Cassel Hotel with the hooker putting her clothes back on in the blurred background and then telling us to tune in for next weeks sermon.

No other entity in the history of planet earth would be allowed to even remain in existence to say nothing of getting away with calling itself “the one true most holy apostolic church” except the RCC. It is the most impressive and dangerous engine of deception the world has ever known.

The Vatican and the colossal maze of legalism that makes the law of death given us through Moses look like a pamphlet, are dual hilltop monuments to and warnings of exactly what happens when men exalt themselves in the place of God. Whatever Christ left us it cannot be the roman catholic church. If Rome we’re Christ’s “church” He’d be the devil. That is not His gospel.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]<<< Brother Chris wrote:And maybe you have completely ignored this, but THE CHURCH IS MADE UP OF PEOPLE NOT BUILDINGS EVEN THOUGH OUR BUILDINGS ARE COMMONLY REFERRED TO AS CHURCHES, WHEN SPEAKING OF “THE CHURCH” IT IS THE PRIESTHOOD, THE HIERARCHY, THE LAITY, THE SUFFERING, AND THE TRIUMPHANT, NOT THE FUCKING BUILDING. >>>[/quote]One last time gentlemen. St. Peter’s Basilica (the current one) was financed by extorting money through the sale of indulgences to simple dirt poor lay people on the ghoulish promise of relieving their departed loved ones from the torments of purgatory. This is common knowledge that the “church” doesn’t even deny. That is theft, fraud and greed of the most heartless variety imaginable. That’s not even mentioning the nauseating ostentation of the thing itself in plain stark contrast to everything the NT church preached and was.

These are precisely the characteristics one would expect from an evil corrupt organization attempting to pass itself off as a church of Christ. We see it all the time. TV preachers promising_______________if only you give them money to live like kings. Except when they get caught they are discredited and lose the fruits of their licentious labor. Not Rome though. She says she’s repented, but 500 years later still lives in and operates out of that monstrous palace built on theft, fraud and greed. That would be like Jimmy Swaggart repenting of immorality from room 69 of the Rassel Cassel Hotel with the hooker putting her clothes back on in the blurred background and then telling us to tune in for next weeks sermon.

No other entity in the history of planet earth would be allowed to even remain in existence to say nothing of getting away with calling itself “the one true most holy apostolic church” except the RCC. It is the most impressive and dangerous engine of deception the world has ever known.

The Vatican and the colossal maze of legalism that makes the law of death given us through Moses look like a pamphlet, are dual hilltop monuments to and warnings of exactly what happens when men exalt themselves in the place of God. Whatever Christ left us it cannot be the roman catholic church. If Rome we’re Christ’s “church” He’d be the devil. That is not His gospel.

[/quote]

Ok, what is His Gospel then?

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a second post of mine disappeared. It was only a picture of catholic clergy giving a sieg heil; totally on topic as far as i’m concerned. If anyone felt it was inappropiate, we can talk about it, just don’t sneak around…

[/quote]

It’s on the atheism-o-phobia thread…still there.[/quote]

…i really need a holiday self-facepalm

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a second post of mine disappeared. It was only a picture of catholic clergy giving a sieg heil; totally on topic as far as i’m concerned. If anyone felt it was inappropiate, we can talk about it, just don’t sneak around…

[/quote]

This has been discussed. 1933 / '34, it wasn’t apparent Hitler was a bad guy yet, he promised the world, like obama :). Had the picture been taken in 1944-45 with out the gun to the head, then I have an issue. Lot’s of priests and laity were cooked in those ovens.[/quote]

…if one bad apple: Ratlines (World War II) - Wikipedia doesn’t mean all of them are bad, why condemn all atheists based on the actions of a few?

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a second post of mine disappeared. It was only a picture of catholic clergy giving a sieg heil; totally on topic as far as i’m concerned. If anyone felt it was inappropiate, we can talk about it, just don’t sneak around…

[/quote]

It’s on the atheism-o-phobia thread…still there.[/quote]

…i really need a holiday self-facepalm
[/quote]Labor day’s comin up =]

[quote]twarren777 wrote:
<<< Ok, what is His Gospel then?
[/quote]You tell me. That’s not sarcastic, I’m being honest. Wadda YOU say? BTW, if you’re really interested you can look back though this thread and even more so the first “misconceptions” thread (I think) to see what effect scripture and logic have on my friends here. It’s a few pages back I’m sure, in the PWI index. Take a deep breath and look around here http://forums.catholic.com/ for an object lesson in the utter legalistic bondage these people live in allegedly in the name Jesus. For an extra confused scowl inducing trek through spiritual no man’s land take a glance in the family life and sex threads. OMG is it heartbreaking watching some of these folks trying to decode “canon law” for their situation.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a second post of mine disappeared. It was only a picture of catholic clergy giving a sieg heil; totally on topic as far as i’m concerned. If anyone felt it was inappropiate, we can talk about it, just don’t sneak around…

[/quote]

It’s on the atheism-o-phobia thread…still there.[/quote]

…i really need a holiday self-facepalm
[/quote]Labor day’s comin up =]
[/quote]

…actually, not to rub it in or anything, but i have a 4 week paid vacation coming up in september. It’s just, i’m walking on my last legs as it is. Just 3 more weeks… 15 workdays… and then… happyhappyjoyjoy…

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a second post of mine disappeared. It was only a picture of catholic clergy giving a sieg heil; totally on topic as far as i’m concerned. If anyone felt it was inappropiate, we can talk about it, just don’t sneak around…

[/quote]

It’s on the atheism-o-phobia thread…still there.[/quote]

…i really need a holiday self-facepalm
[/quote]Labor day’s comin up =]
[/quote]

…actually, not to rub it in or anything, but i have a 4 week paid vacation coming up in september. It’s just, i’m walking on my last legs as it is. Just 3 more weeks… 15 workdays… and then… happyhappyjoyjoy…
[/quote]Ya commie. Cryin like you’re headed for the canoe.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a second post of mine disappeared. It was only a picture of catholic clergy giving a sieg heil; totally on topic as far as i’m concerned. If anyone felt it was inappropiate, we can talk about it, just don’t sneak around…

[/quote]

This has been discussed. 1933 / '34, it wasn’t apparent Hitler was a bad guy yet, he promised the world, like obama :). Had the picture been taken in 1944-45 with out the gun to the head, then I have an issue. Lot’s of priests and laity were cooked in those ovens.[/quote]

…if one bad apple: Ratlines (World War II) - Wikipedia doesn’t mean all of them are bad, why condemn all atheists based on the actions of a few?
[/quote]

I never said all athiests are bad. Bad if you want a “who dun worse shit” pissing contest, Atheists win, hands down. Do you want to argue that people do bad things or is there another point?

[quote]twarren777 wrote:
I cannot believe, somebody who claims to be a Christian, would harbor so much hate for fellow Christians. To be so small minded in matters of faith makes me thing you do not understand this stuff. When I said some people can read the Bible and not understand it, I was talking about you. This hate you have is your burden and your own crushing weight that you give as much credence as one would their own child, swearing to carry it, no matter what, to your grave. That is a sad, sad thing.
[/quote]

From an onlooker reading this whole thing allows me to see the biggest issue. Jesus said several times you will “know them by there fruits”. In commenting about someone on a forum such as this and not seeing the tracks in the road so to speak how can I judge them?
I learned that taking a snapshot of someones life and making judgment based on that is wrong. Now taking a video of there life and seeing that they my fall short at times but has a repentant heart toward God and man tells me much of said life.
It is true that Jesus said He is the “ONLY WAY” and I agree 100%. Paul says about Jesus “He is all and in all”. Jesus did not come to establish just a church but a Kingdom for eternity which He alone is king. “Repent for the KINGDOM is at hand” as he offered His hand of fellowship to the lost.
We should never boast of our associations of religion more than we boast of our relationship with the only one who can save me from the WRATH OF GOD. Just sayin[/quote]

Your welcome to join in, but what are you trying to say? You quoted me, are you directing this to me?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< And next time you think about being a proud Calvinist think about the fact that you are following a religion and theology created by a man.
[/quote]Chris ya don’t get it my friend. Calvinism is not a religion it is simply the gospel of the God who cannot fail most recently recovered by John Calvin in the 16th century. Actually if one reads Luther’s Bondage of the Will (and some other stuff) those 2 had much in common. Calvin was quite a Lutheran and Luther quite the Calvinist, though they did have some differences as well. See here’s the deal, I don’t believe you have to be a Calvinist to be saved.

Oh, there’s dozens of denominations and groups I see as being in profound error that I still embrace as brethren. I do however also believe that other systems of theology have inadvertently shrunken God some.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html
I have already linked this several times, but the Westminster Confession of Faith is in my view the soundest non inspired statement of the Christian Faith ever put in one place. However, unlike catholic dogma and canon law I am free to differ which I do, or am at least not as firm as the confession is here and there.

You will not find anything in that confession that relies upon or is governed by extra biblical tradition for it’s existence or interpretation. That’s the difference. Yuo cannot possibly arrive at huge vital areas of RCC doctrine relying n the bible alone and in it’s entirety even if you include the apocryphal books. You have to already assume that stuff and then go to the bible with it to see it there.

Come on Ephrem don’t lemme down buddy. I laid myself wide open there.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]twarren777 wrote:
I cannot believe, somebody who claims to be a Christian, would harbor so much hate for fellow Christians. To be so small minded in matters of faith makes me thing you do not understand this stuff. When I said some people can read the Bible and not understand it, I was talking about you. This hate you have is your burden and your own crushing weight that you give as much credence as one would their own child, swearing to carry it, no matter what, to your grave. That is a sad, sad thing.
[/quote]

From an onlooker reading this whole thing allows me to see the biggest issue. Jesus said several times you will “know them by there fruits”. In commenting about someone on a forum such as this and not seeing the tracks in the road so to speak how can I judge them?
I learned that taking a snapshot of someones life and making judgment based on that is wrong. Now taking a video of there life and seeing that they my fall short at times but has a repentant heart toward God and man tells me much of said life.
It is true that Jesus said He is the “ONLY WAY” and I agree 100%. Paul says about Jesus “He is all and in all”. Jesus did not come to establish just a church but a Kingdom for eternity which He alone is king. “Repent for the KINGDOM is at hand” as he offered His hand of fellowship to the lost.
We should never boast of our associations of religion more than we boast of our relationship with the only one who can save me from the WRATH OF GOD. Just sayin[/quote]

Your welcome to join in, but what are you trying to say? You quoted me, are you directing this to me?[/quote]

Not just you but the few who are involved with this seemingly hated debate. All have good points at times but without really knowing and hanging out with each other except thru forums I think most of what I read is futile.
Seems when it comes to the Gospel and what it really stands for this forum has forgotten its true message. If I know people with the knowledge some here have and debated in person I would not judge them by that but look at there life and see if Christ has truly regenerated them.
Your knowledge of theology and the letter of the law means nothing in eternity. But your knowledge of Jesus and what He has done for us is everything and can be taken into eternity.

Read back a few pages and see where I come from I gave info there.

If one is saved what is he saved from? someone please let me know.
If Catholic (as I was in my youth) what are you saved from?
If Baptist as I am now what are you saved from?
again just sayin

[quote]twarren777 wrote:
<<< Your knowledge of theology and the letter of the law means nothing in eternity. But your knowledge of Jesus and what He has done for us is everything and can be taken into eternity. >>>[/quote]This is exactly right actually. We are saved from true death having been resurrected in newness of life as new creatures in Christ and are subsequently transformed by the renewing of our mind as we put off the old dead Adam and put on the new man in Christ the last Adam in a quest for personal holiness and fellowship with Him. Doctrine does not accomplish this. The alone grace and mercy of the Father through the death and resurrection His Son and sending us the indwelling Spirit accomplishes this.

However, bad theology leads to false gods and false gospels with their doctrines of demons and false hopes so THEOLOGY MATTERS, and matters big time.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

One last time gentlemen. St. Peter’s Basilica (the current one) was financed by extorting money through the sale of indulgences to simple dirt poor lay people on the ghoulish promise of relieving their departed loved ones from the torments of purgatory. This is common knowledge that the “church” doesn’t even deny. That is theft, fraud and greed of the most heartless variety imaginable. That’s not even mentioning the nauseating ostentation of the thing itself in plain stark contrast to everything the NT church preached and was.
[/quote]
^This is the reason why you hate Catholicism to your grave? Are you serious? That’s it? That’s pitiable. Really? One bishop takes matters into his own hands and the whole church and all it’s people and all it’s practices are evil and bad?
Part of the funding came from the selling of indulgences yes, but it wasn’t commissioned by the pope. The pope merely asked the bishops to raise money. Actually, Archbishop Albert took out a loan and donated it to the Vatican, he was paying back the loan with money from indulgences…That is, if we want to be accurate and all…Not that we are concerned about facts and accurate information…God forbid!

It was Archbishop Albert of Mains who decided he could sell these indulgences.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/St._Peter’s_Basilica

If nothing else, you should rejoice because it gave birth to the protestant separation. If it wasn’t for him, Protestantism would not exist.

Ironically, Martin Luther, in his 95 Theses shows belief in Purgatory and a devotion to the Blessed Mother.

http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/mary/mary_5.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2132999/posts

Historical facts are not your friend here…You really need to review everything, not just one aspect. The problem is that many clergy were also politicians. This is when you get into trouble. But the whole building wasn’t funded that way. There were no fund raisers like that. One archbishop in Germany decided to sell indugences. The whole of it

You are going to carry hate in your heart over a building??? Are you sure you don’t want to rethink that?

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a second post of mine disappeared. It was only a picture of catholic clergy giving a sieg heil; totally on topic as far as i’m concerned. If anyone felt it was inappropiate, we can talk about it, just don’t sneak around…

[/quote]

It’s on the atheism-o-phobia thread…still there.[/quote]

…i really need a holiday self-facepalm
[/quote]

Come to GA, we’ll grab a beer and talk football…Real football :slight_smile:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a second post of mine disappeared. It was only a picture of catholic clergy giving a sieg heil; totally on topic as far as i’m concerned. If anyone felt it was inappropiate, we can talk about it, just don’t sneak around…

[/quote]

This has been discussed. 1933 / '34, it wasn’t apparent Hitler was a bad guy yet, he promised the world, like obama :). Had the picture been taken in 1944-45 with out the gun to the head, then I have an issue. Lot’s of priests and laity were cooked in those ovens.[/quote]

…if one bad apple: Ratlines (World War II) - Wikipedia doesn’t mean all of them are bad, why condemn all atheists based on the actions of a few?
[/quote]

I never said all athiests are bad. Bad if you want a “who dun worse shit” pissing contest, Atheists win, hands down. Do you want to argue that people do bad things or is there another point?[/quote]

…the point is, and you should know this by now, just because people who claim to be atheist commit atrocities in name of some ideology, beit communism or fascism, does not mean that all atheist are devoid of morality. You know, like, not all catholic priest are pedophiles…