[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Assurance, properly understood, is thoroughly biblical. Even Arminians hold to a doctrine of assurance. I’ll get to this as soon as I can. [/quote]
Well, I’ll be waiting for your biblical proof, and if you are speaking Arminianism, it is definitely considered a heresy from the reformation. [/quote]Only so many hours in the day Chris. I’m tryin man.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You didn’t listen =[
[/quote]That’s because it doesn’t make sense that you can do anything humanly possible (have faith or do works) to have salvation. Are you saying once saved alawys saved, because that makes more sense than saying if you have faith you’ll be saved. I’m sure there are a lot of demons that have faith in Jesus dying for their sins, know his name, &c. I don’t really think the Angel of Light’s fallen angels will be going to Heaven.[/quote]How do you know it doesn’t make sense if you didn’t listen? Trust me when I tell you that neither he nor I nor any other true Calvinist believes that a person not ultimately bearing the testimony of a transformed life belongs to Christ. Maybe I’m not clearly understanding your difficulty so far.
[/quote]
Because I used to be the same way, I believe that if you just have faith you will be saved. I have heard all the arguments listened to it preached by some of the best seminarians, preachers, scholars of Calvinism. [/quote]Alright, I see what happened here. Contrary to what you no doubt fervently believe, I did not link that sermon for any specific purpose of persuading you with regard to any specific point. I just was curious what you would think since you seemed dismissive of a black Detroit Calvinist. Maybe I misunderstood.
Let me clear this up for you once and for all. Faith without works IS dead. Faith is shown by works. Faith WILL produce works. Hearers who do not do the Word are deceived. We got that now? =] However, “works” does not primarily mean feeding the poor, widows, charity etc. Works = personal obedience and holiness of word, thought AND deed to the revealed will of God. Works =, not being conformed to this world, but being transformed by the renewing of your mind (Romans 12). Works = strengthening the new man in Christ, the last Adam, so as to be equipped for war (Romans 7) against the flesh born in the first because “the mind set on the flesh is death” (Romans 8).
Works = recognizing "<<< that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us? (James 4)
Works = personal obedience and holiness in a nutshell, which testifies before the world to His power and righteousness. If the world can’t tell the difference between you and them there isn’t any. The Detroit Hell’s Angels motorcycle gang has soup kitchens and buys clothes and school supplies for poor children. It proves nothing by itself. Of course if the witness of Gospel of Christ is married to the works of charity then they are righteous and good, but somebody who’s bangin the secretary, pilfering from the company, and talks and acts just like the pagans in their life, but does charity work thinking that means a thing to God is in for a very tragic, but very just, rude awakening.
[/quote]
Right. God calls us to serve ourselves in faith…Ug, the agony. Taking care of number one isn’t an act of work in faith.
The Hell’s Angel feeding poor is far more holy than the person serving himself in faith…[/quote]
Which reminds me I need to get those toys to tots. And I’m riding up to Flagstaff along side a bunch of HA’s.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Then forget about the Counsel of Trent from the year 1560 and look at the current Catechism for which I lovingly copied and pasted for you. This is what the official, unvarnished stance of the Church on the topics you are inquiring. This isn’t that hard.
I don’t know what your eternal destination is, that’s between you and the Good Lord. I am sure God loves people with extremely hard heads too.[/quote]So Trent doesn’t count anymore? Meaning for 400 years “the church” was in error? You didn’t answer my question whether my eternal state was “basic” or “malleable”? That’s pretty important and could be different acording to Rome if it’s 1560 or 1960. Though I also didn’t get an answer to why your encyclopedia gives the STILL CURRENT verbatim “formula” for anathematizing obstinate heretics which includes eternal damnation with Satan and his angels. They say I’m damned. If your church is THEE church I wholeheartedly agree… I am. I just still can’t get you to do it.
You’re right it isn’t that hard. Apostolic succession if true goes back beyond the CCC which I BTW linked to first in the last thread. A church claiming divine authority traceable directly back to the first century should have no problem looking at what was taught all along. I have no problem looking at anything all the way back to the 1st of Genesis. In fact I insist. Why are you so afraid of looking at the past. Succession is all about he past. I honestly can’t believe nobody’s brought out the big guns against Calvin and Luther yet.
[/quote]
That’s not what you are asking. You are trying to paint me into a corner. What was stated at the Counsel of Trent was a reaffirmation coalescing of the churches dogma. Making sure all were on the same page.
What you are trying to do is make me say that the Counsel of Trent damns you. It does not. Your the only one damning people who do not believe like you, not me. Anathema is an excommunication. Paul used the word to express that he would cut himself off from Christ in order to bring other to it. He didn’t use the word to curse himself, it would not make sense. “Cursed” is something people who practice voodoo and shit do. Your unmitigated bias toward my faith is blinding you to the truth.
Now historically excommunication was thought to be a damnable state because you were cut off from the church’s sacraments. Since there was only one church at the time, it was a big deal. This, however, was never a dogma of the church. If you lived in 1560 and were excommunicated it was thought a fate worse than death. Like you, now, it was only thought that Christians were saved, if you were excommunicated, you technically weren’t Christian anymore.
Your fatal flaw is you are taking it out of context from the time. If you refuse the dogmas of the church you are still out of communion. Since you hate it, this should not be a big deal to you. This is as true to day as it was then.
Well there you go insulting my faith, without wisdom and understanding. The fact that you “hate it” shows bigotry. You certainly don’t know hardly anything about it based on what you say. For instance, how specifically, has the church deceived so many? What is the deception?
How is the church “overtly opposed to the Savior”? That’s got to be the stupidest things I have ever heard, are you sure you not a member of the Westboro Baptist Church? You don’t walk around with a “God hates fags” sign do you?
So you hate us, huh? Not that it wasn’t noticeable, but at least you admit you are motivated by hatred. That’s an interesting Christian tenant. How very Christian of you.
You hate what you do not understand. It’s very sad that you feel that way, as a Christian and a man of the scripture you are in direct opposition to the scripture you claim to hold so dear.
I have no hatred of the evangelical faiths.
Again you insult my faith and spread vicious lies about it, I find that deeply offensive. Here, and calling it a “tool of satan” with out knowledge or cause.
Further, and once again Jesus founded the church and promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Calling it evil and a tool of Satan, means that evil did prevail against it means you are calling Jesus a liar. There were no evangelicals, scripture only, faith alone churches back then. You church is born of that one, and born by man. You are saying Jesus abandoned the church, something he promised he would never do. So do you really believe the scriptures? This is a matter of historical and theological fact and it cannot be disputed with out lying. It is impossible to do so.
Persuasive? LOL! Not in the least. People who are persuasive can back up their arguments with logic and wisdom, not emotive dialect based on hate speech. You are incapable of pointing out what wrong with the church, you just want to say that the church has damned you by your own willful ignorance.
Most of the atheists around here are better arguers for their point than you. Further, when they ask questions, they are motivate by wanting to know the answers rather than hatred. Most of the athiests have been far more respectful than you and quite frankly their arguments are more compelling. They ask good questions like “How do you know what you believe it correct?”
They don’t go around repeating the word ‘anathema’ with their own applied definition trying to make me condemn them…Further I do not even condemn them. The fact that you may be blind to is that their curiosity may lead them to faith. But they are genuinely curious, you? You just are spitting hatred. Hatred is usually akin to ignorance. Ignorance is not ok when it is willful.
Save for makavali, most of them have been respectful in their challenges. I suggest you take a lesson from ephrem. He has no issue challenging, and challenging hard, but he has always been respectful and honest. Ironically, a man with no claim to God, does not hate as you do…That should be very telling to you.
Further, I say he is a good person and goodness comes from God.
You upset me because you asked me to engage in good faith, in an honest discussion, but instead you used it as an excuse to bash and insult my faith. You ask me to make answer quesions and use the bible to back it up, I did that. You in turn, turned it on me, with out dispelling my points (you never did counter my detailed answers) and be can to insult my faith, claiming that we teach, practice and are evil ← All with out cause or reason. You set me up to bash Catholicism. You don’t know anything about it and don’t want to know, you just want to hate and be right. Hate is never justified by God, ever. So good luck.
I like and respect my protestant brothers and sisters. It’s sad you cannot do the same.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Which reminds me I need to get those toys to tots. And I’m riding up to Flagstaff along side a bunch of HA’s. [/quote]
Should be awesome, have fun you against Jesus guy you… 
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< So you hate us, huh? Not that it wasn’t noticeable, but at least you admit you are motivated by hatred. That’s an interesting Christian tenant. How very Christian of you. >>>[/quote]You are not listening Pat. I do not hate YOU Pat, YOU Brother Chris, YOU Sloth etc. If you only knew how wrong that was. I don’t even dislike nevermind hate any of you guys. To whatever extent I am sinfully responsible for your feeling this way I am so very sorry and ask your forgiveness. It was not ever my intention though it may have been inevitable. YOU are not the RCC which I will never stop hating while there is breath in my lungs.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< So you hate us, huh? Not that it wasn’t noticeable, but at least you admit you are motivated by hatred. That’s an interesting Christian tenant. How very Christian of you. >>>[/quote]You are not listening Pat. I do not hate YOU Pat, YOU Brother Chris, YOU Sloth etc. If you only knew how wrong that was. I don’t even dislike nevermind hate any of you guys. To whatever extent I am sinfully responsible for your feeling this way I am so very sorry and ask your forgiveness. It was not ever my intention though it may have been inevitable. YOU are not the RCC which I will never stop hating while there is breath in my lungs.
[/quote]
We ARE the church we are, one body in Christ. To hate the church is to hate me and my Catholic brethren. We are not perfect, but we try and will never give up.
Hate is not from God but is born of evil…This is scriptural. By how you judge, you will be judged. Your hate is you own detriment. It is your problem, not mine. I engaged in meaningful conversation only to be setup to be victimized by your hate. I do not appreciate it. I made myself vulnerable and you took advantage.
You hate the church you hate the people, we are the church. I do not apologize, I do not repent and I don’t give a flying fuck if you do not like, but I will defend it, because it is right and good.
Read the scriptures as to the detriment to those who cling to hate. Get a searchable bible and read all about it.
I respect the faith and the fervor of my evangelical brothers and sister. I do not agree with their dogma, but I agree with there heart in faith. For Jesus said, “those who are not against us are for us.” You have chosen a different path.
I cannot respect person of faith who harbors irrational and unmitigated hate. I hope you can let go of it someday.
Pat wrote:[quote]<<< Hate is not from God but is born of evil…This is scriptural. By how you judge, you will be judged. Your hate is you own detriment. It is your problem, not mine. I engaged in meaningful conversation only to be setup to be victimized by your hate. I do not appreciate it. I made myself vulnerable and you took advantage.>>>[/quote]You ARE vulnerable Pat. It has nothing to do with me. It appears nothing I say will disabuse you of the grievously erroneous notion that I hate you. I must therefore leave it in God’s hands. Your disbelief will not change the heaviness of heart that causes me.
I wish I had more time, but I don’t and won’t for about a day.
Pat wrote:[quote]<<< Hate is not from God but is born of evil…This is scriptural.[/quote]
Psalm 97:10 Douay-Rheims Bible
Psalm 139:21 Douay-Rheims Bible
Amos 5:15 Douay-Rheims Bible
[quote]Hate evil, and love good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be the Lord the God of hosts may have mercy on the remnant of Joseph.[/quote]There’s more. What do you want from me? I see ample biblical evidence of the evil of the RCC. I respond the way I firmly believe God does.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Pat wrote:[quote]<<< Hate is not from God but is born of evil…This is scriptural. By how you judge, you will be judged. Your hate is you own detriment. It is your problem, not mine. I engaged in meaningful conversation only to be setup to be victimized by your hate. I do not appreciate it. I made myself vulnerable and you took advantage.>>>[/quote]You ARE vulnerable Pat. It has nothing to do with me. It appears nothing I say will disabuse you of the grievously erroneous notion that I hate you. I must therefore leave it in God’s hands. Your disbelief will not change the heaviness of heart that causes me.
I wish I had more time, but I don’t and won’t for about a day.
Pat wrote:[quote]<<< Hate is not from God but is born of evil…This is scriptural.[/quote]
Psalm 97:10 Douay-Rheims Bible
Psalm 139:21 Douay-Rheims Bible
Amos 5:15 Douay-Rheims Bible
Lv 19:17 - You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him.
I don’t care that you hate me, you ain’t the first. But you drew me in to an intimate conversation in good faith, requesting I be honest and forth right. You asked me to back up something I said regarding salvation with scripture. I did, in a very detailed fashion.
Rather than counter argue with your own scriptural references, you commence on a Catholic Church bashing spree. Then you can’t believe I am offended?! I told you we the people are the church. So yes, it’s me, Brother Chris and every Catholic who cares about their faith you are bashing and insulting. So knock of this bullshit of a “heavy heart”, that crap makes it even more insulting.
NOW, Testify to this supposed evil with details and backed up by scripture…This ought to be good…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< So you hate us, huh? Not that it wasn’t noticeable, but at least you admit you are motivated by hatred. That’s an interesting Christian tenant. How very Christian of you. >>>[/quote]You are not listening Pat. I do not hate YOU Pat, YOU Brother Chris, YOU Sloth etc. If you only knew how wrong that was. I don’t even dislike nevermind hate any of you guys. To whatever extent I am sinfully responsible for your feeling this way I am so very sorry and ask your forgiveness. It was not ever my intention though it may have been inevitable. YOU are not the RCC which I will never stop hating while there is breath in my lungs.
[/quote]
Sitting here in the sun room on a Sunday afternoon, fresh out of mass, with my fresh haircut, and freshly shaven beard, drawing on my Sunday cigar, I am plum amazed at the fact that you still do not get the basic tenets of what the Catholics are saying.
Hating the Catholic Church is hating us, the Catholic Church is not some building, it is the people, it is a society, a visible society. A visible Church.
On the Visiblity of the Church
On the Invisible and Visible Church:
There is a little bit of something for you in there Tirib, on the end.
On the term ecclesia:
In conclusion, to hate the Catholic Church is to hate the Catholics, or its Creator, militant, suffering, and triumphant. Just like you cannot hate any other corporation without hating its owner/creator, and employees. However, unlike other corporations, the things that we produce are held more dear and lovingly, even though we produce them more fierceness and justice than any other corporation.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< In conclusion, to hate the Catholic Church is to hate the Catholics, or its Creator, militant, suffering, and triumphant. Just like you cannot hate any other corporation without hating its owner/creator, and employees. However, unlike other corporations, the things that we produce are held more dear and lovingly, even though we produce them more fierceness and justice than any other corporation.[/quote]
Come on Chris, don’t be shy. Are you saying I must hate God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit if I hate the RCC?
[quote]pat wrote:
Lv 19:17 - You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him.[/quote]I don’t.
[quote]pat wrote:NOW, Testify to this supposed evil with details and backed up by scripture…This ought to be good…[/quote]No, it won’t be good. Scripture carries no weight with you apart from the all conditioning influence of Rome. I have gotten answers to exactly nothing major I have asked. Even after all the back and forth with Sloth, I never did get anything compelling to explain why God’s supposed one true church still operates out of an obscenely opulent sprawling palace complex entirely contrary to the character of the church of the NT and which was financed by admitted fraud of the most heinous variety imaginable.
IF there were a prophetic passage of God breathed scripture that read: [quote]Thus saith the Lord God of Israel. it shall come to pass in Rome, that an abomination in my sight calling herself my most holy one true apostolic church at the address of Vatican City State, 00120 Italy will arise deceiving men and committing whoredoms with the nations of the world. She shall build for herself using my name a temple like unto baal not seen since the very beginning and she shall do this by shamelessly fleecing the poor using fraud and deceit barely measured among the heathen.
She shall exalt herself in the place of the Most High declaring vain canons of law that I did not teach her as the very words of the Lord making naught of my statutes and thereby leading into bondage and death a multitude that can not be numbered among men. Do not go after her my people lest thou be stained with her iniquities and be made partakers in my judgments against her.[/quote]That obviously fictitious passage if it were authentic would have zero effect on catholics because somewhere in that colossal labyrinth of “tradition”, for which a literal “canon lawyer” is required to decipher, would be some explanation you’d cling to as an answer.
I’ll take this, Romans 10:8-13
[quote]"8-But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9-because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10-For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11-For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12-For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13-For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[/quote]But I have no “canon lawyer” to explain to me that the faithful also require a mountain of ceremony while Aborigines need to not even REALLY call on His name. I know, there’s more than one way to know Christ right? God almighty that’s a damnable lie. People are perishing because of it. I still have some of my biblical refutations for your attempts to establish this from scripture, but they won’t do any good. If what I’m saying were true this is anything but hate. I KNOW, it’s not, but I believe it is and my intention, which is what should be measured since they’re my words is not hateful to you in the least.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< In conclusion, to hate the Catholic Church is to hate the Catholics, or its Creator, militant, suffering, and triumphant. Just like you cannot hate any other corporation without hating its owner/creator, and employees. However, unlike other corporations, the things that we produce are held more dear and lovingly, even though we produce them more fierceness and justice than any other corporation.[/quote]
Come on Chris, don’t be shy. Are you saying I must hate God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit if I hate the RCC?[/quote]
No, I was more speaking of the Holy See, even though Jesus is the true Creator of the Catholic Church. So, if you want to push logic that far have at it, but you’re not hearing it from my lips.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
No, it won’t be good. Scripture carries no weight with you apart from the all conditioning influence of Rome.
[/quote]
Still bad mouthing with no evidence, when have we said that scripture does not carry any weight, just because we can prove you wrong with Holy Scripture as well doesn’t mean we do not give scripture any weight. The Rosary (not the beads but the actually prayer) is from the Bible, every word. Our Mass is made up of Holy Scripture, our Mass celebrates the Sacrifice told in the Holy Scriptures, so far sounds like we hold Scripture to have some weight.
Ignorning the part that has nothing to do with a logical argument. Come on Tirib, seriously? whoredom?
And maybe you have completely ignored this, but THE CHURCH IS MADE UP OF PEOPLE NOT BUILDINGS EVEN THOUGH OUR BUILDINGS ARE COMMONLY REFERRED TO AS CHURCHES, WHEN SPEAKING OF “THE CHURCH” IT IS THE PRIESTHOOD, THE HEIRARCHY, THE LEITY, THE SUFFERING, AND THE TRIUMPHANT, NOT THE FUCKING BUILDING.
[quote]
I’ll take this, Romans 10:8-13
But I have no “canon lawyer” to explain to me that the faithful also require a mountain of ceremony while Aborigines need to not even REALLY call on His name.[/quote]
Where does it even remotely say in there that you don’t have to belong to the Church?
[quote]
they won’t do any good…[/quote]
Thanks…now I am sure of this was just an attempt to lure us in so you can bad mouth us without evidence to our faces and cover it up as debate. So far you have not produced anything saying that there is no Church left by Jesus. And we have left many pieces of evidence stating there is. I think the dicussion is over, well at least until someone decides to pull out some real clear evidence.
I feel embarrased, as the saying goes, I wish for the days of the old heretics, atleast they were well versed in doctrine.
And next time you think about being a proud Calvinist think about the fact that you are following a religion and theology created by a man.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
In conclusion, to hate the Catholic Church is to hate the Catholics, or its Creator, militant, suffering, and triumphant. Just like you cannot hate any other corporation without hating its owner/creator, and employees.[/quote]
This is a bit off-topic, but not entirely. What you are saying implies that I can’t dislike american foreign policy without disliking americans or hate the treatment of women in the muslim world without hating categorically all muslim men. In fact, it would then be impossible to hate the sin and love the sinner.
I would say, that while it is a common human weakness to behave and think in this way, there is nothing that forces it on a person, it is totally possible, a tad difficult maybe but totally possible, to hate the Catholic Church as an institution and still take catholics as they come, one by one. But this is a sidenote, Tirib stands for his own words, I’m not commenting on that.
…a second post of mine disappeared. It was only a picture of catholic clergy giving a sieg heil; totally on topic as far as i’m concerned. If anyone felt it was inappropiate, we can talk about it, just don’t sneak around…
Sometimes I wonder if God is looking and listening to us and saying “OH MY SELF”…
After reading most of this post last week I think we have forgotten the most important thing or person that is on God’s mind, namely His Son Jesus.
We all have the same problem together no matter what you call yourself on earth the only way to spend eternity in heaven is faith and a life of believing in God’s son. “You will know them by their fruits”.
I have a Heinz 57 religion, growing up Catholic then when I could think for myself tried other religions such as Church of Christ, Pentecostal. UPC, Assembly of God, Charismatic, Baptist …
You get the picture. My conclusion is this that we all have to know how to deal with Proverbs 17,
15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
God being just cannot let us off the hook from sin and if He allows us to enter heaven in our sin He will be an abomination to Himself.
So what is the answer to this.
If we are saved what are we saved from?
I have learned most people want heaven with the pearly gates and streets of gold but would rather God not be there. My goal is not to see heaven but Him Who died for me and has saved me.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
In conclusion, to hate the Catholic Church is to hate the Catholics, or its Creator, militant, suffering, and triumphant. Just like you cannot hate any other corporation without hating its owner/creator, and employees. However, unlike other corporations, the things that we produce are held more dear and lovingly, even though we produce them more fierceness and justice than any other corporation.[/quote]
I rather liken it with the analogy of the Islamic militant you know. “I hate America, everything she is and everything she stands for, but I don’t mean it personally. I don’t mean it against you!!”
Yeah right.
[quote]twarren777 wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if God is looking and listening to us and saying “OH MY SELF”…
After reading most of this post last week I think we have forgotten the most important thing or person that is on God’s mind, namely His Son Jesus.
We all have the same problem together no matter what you call yourself on earth the only way to spend eternity in heaven is faith and a life of believing in God’s son. “You will know them by their fruits”.
I have a Heinz 57 religion, growing up Catholic then when I could think for myself tried other religions such as Church of Christ, Pentecostal. UPC, Assembly of God, Charismatic, Baptist …
You get the picture. My conclusion is this that we all have to know how to deal with Proverbs 17,
15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
God being just cannot let us off the hook from sin and we enter heaven or He will be an abomination to Himself. So what is the answer to this.
I have learned most people want heaven with the pearly gates and streets of gold but would rather God not be there. My goal is not to see heaven but Him Who died for me and has saved me.[/quote]
The infighting is rather sad isn’t it??? You are right, of course. But sometimes such things can lead to a meaningful dialog of folks are willing to part, at least temporarily with inbred biases with no basis in reality. I have been saying all along, there is commonality, but if you are blinded by hate, you’ll never grow spiritually or otherwise…
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< In conclusion, to hate the Catholic Church is to hate the Catholics, or its Creator, militant, suffering, and triumphant. Just like you cannot hate any other corporation without hating its owner/creator, and employees. However, unlike other corporations, the things that we produce are held more dear and lovingly, even though we produce them more fierceness and justice than any other corporation.[/quote]
Come on Chris, don’t be shy. Are you saying I must hate God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit if I hate the RCC?[/quote]
No, I was more speaking of the Holy See, even though Jesus is the true Creator of the Catholic Church. So, if you want to push logic that far have at it, but you’re not hearing it from my lips.[/quote]
As explained earlier Jesus himself created the church he further said the “…the gates of hell will not prevail against it”. The lineage of the church is traceable to exactly that moment. There was only the one Christian Church, it was what is now called the Roman Catholic Church, having a name only because of the differentiations of the latter created Christian sects required a differentiation. If I am not mistaken the name was given by the other Christian disciplines, not because we named ourselves. I will have to do some research to verify. There was one church, all others were begotten of it. To say it is “satan’s tool” or evil is to basically call Jesus a liar, for if true, the “gates of hell” prevailed. Game over.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a second post of mine disappeared. It was only a picture of catholic clergy giving a sieg heil; totally on topic as far as i’m concerned. If anyone felt it was inappropiate, we can talk about it, just don’t sneak around…
[/quote]
It’s on the atheism-o-phobia thread…still there.