Misconceptions of Christianity 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
821

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Next time I drive by the reservation, I’ll keep your suggestions for us in mind. But, I also be wondering if you’ll lead the way. Maybe we can get neighboring seats on the flight to Europe?[/quote]

Please forgive me, but I am a light weight as many has seen on here. The protestants that moved to American and founded this Country, wrote in the Constitution that there is to be separation of Church and State. The original set up that God ordained in the Old Testament. The acts of the Government is not led by any church whether Protestant, nor Catholic.

Are you saying that the Native Americans here in America were forced to go to the Reservation because the Protestant Churches in this Country took their land?[/quote]

Um, the governments in the OT, didn’t have seperation of Church and State.

822

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
No one can say who is going to Hell, no one can even say who is in Hell, except the Angel of Light and his minions. I’m not going to even pretend that last post was even close to being rational though.

Here’s the difference between the Catholic Church and Protestant denominations. The Catholic Church was given to us by Jesus, for our salvation, so we can worship him more deeply, so we can be a slave to righteousness. The Protestant denominations have had one main purpose, directly or inhereted: To go against the Catholic Church. It is in your name, You are protestors, you protest the Catholic Church. You even twist your own book so you do not have to admit that we are the Church. The Protestant has done more to destroy the Bible then they have done to perserve it, let alone spread its message.

Protestants have created many errors in their Bibles, books taken out, phrases taken out, and probably many other things along the way.

Another difference is that though Protestants are anti-Catholic. And will scream at the top of their lungs, that is so. Catholics are not anti-protestant, we do not envy you, however we do not hate you. We probably have worse people in our Church than in all your churches. But, Jesus did not come to heal the well, he came to heal the sick. Which is evident from the Catholic Church.

I always wonder if people are thinking about the fact that the Catholic Church has been proclaiming the same message for a little under 2000 years, is the biggest and longest continuous standing organization in the history of man kind, is the biggest organization on earth today. Not to forget the fact that even though as great as Billy Graham, and such evangelicals, the Catholic Church has more ministries to the poor, sick, uneducated, unborn, widows, orphans, & than anyone else. We have one of the largest relief funds and several auxiliary ministries that help that fund when in a time of crisis. We also have more charitable societies than anyone else. Yet, even though for all this time, people have been asking God to smite us, and trying to smite us as well, we still stand. Even through our ebb and flow of sins.

Tirib, if you want to bring down the Catholic Church, like all the Protestants, don’t try. It’s not worth the effort, you are running into a 120 foot thick cement wall. And, well, at the end of the day, Catholics have been having a very good go at trying to bring the Catholic Church down every single day for the passed 1800 years or so.

I believe that is one of the greatest modern testimonies of God. Even a house full of hooligans, when touched by God will stand for ever.[/quote]

Brother Chris, how much money is collected by Catholic Charities from different Governments?[/quote]

Not sure, why do you ask?

823

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Next time I drive by the reservation, I’ll keep your suggestions for us in mind. But, I also be wondering if you’ll lead the way. Maybe we can get neighboring seats on the flight to Europe?[/quote]

Please forgive me, but I am a light weight as many has seen on here. The protestants that moved to American and founded this Country, wrote in the Constitution that there is to be separation of Church and State. The original set up that God ordained in the Old Testament. The acts of the Government is not led by any church whether Protestant, nor Catholic.

Are you saying that the Native Americans here in America were forced to go to the Reservation because the Protestant Churches in this Country took their land?[/quote]

Um, the governments in the OT, didn’t have seperation of Church and State.[/quote]

Um, yes it did. The King was not to preform the priestly duties, and the priests were not to be the King. Look at Saul. Saul slaughtered all those bulls because he wanted to get to fighting. In doing that God told him through the prophet that his lineage would be destroyed. His kingdom would be taken away from him. God used the priests to tell the King what God wanted, but the priests never went to war to fight in the battles. That was the Kings duties. Separation of church and state at its pureist form.

824

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

Brother Chris, how much money is collected by Catholic Charities from different Governments?[/quote]

From governments?[/quote]

I state this, because not all Roman Catholic Charities are funded just by money given to the Catholic Chruch by leity (my spelling is horrible). There is a tiff between the US government, maybe the Local DC government about the placing of adoptions. The DC governement pays the Catholic Church to place these children with parents. This tiff aobut placing children with Homosexual couples is coming to a head. The Catholic Charity does not want to give children to Homosexual couples, and the DC Government says they have to or they will withold their money. This is 100’s of millions of dollars over a period of time so the Catholic Church is thinking of dropping this requirement. I do not think they will, but they are contemplating it non the less.

Also the Catholic Churches willingness to look over Nancy Pelosi’s fondness for Abortions. IMO they should excommunicate her from the Chruch. I see Catholics in bed with the government. The Liberals stand for things that 100 years ago the Catholic Church would have excommunicated people with out even thinking about it. Know it just seems that a bunch of Democrats in Washington are Catholics. The Kennedy’s are Catholic, Nancy Pelosi is Catholic, the Mob is Catholic. I am just thinking out loud so please forgive me. Democrats seem to be against the Catholic Church yet the Catholic Church allows them to take the sacraments. Protestants are not immune from sin, but when a Conservative Protestant goes against the Bible and the church they repent, and then resign. Nancy Pelosi spits in the face of the Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church just takes it. This is just one example of many.

I hate televangelists, so please do not bring them into the discussion.

825

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I state this, because not all Roman Catholic Charities are funded just by money given to the Catholic Chruch by leity (my spelling is horrible). There is a tiff between the US government, maybe the Local DC government about the placing of adoptions. The DC governement pays the Catholic Church to place these children with parents. This tiff aobut placing children with Homosexual couples is coming to a head. The Catholic Charity does not want to give children to Homosexual couples, and the DC Government says they have to or they will withold their money. This is 100’s of millions of dollars over a period of time so the Catholic Church is thinking of dropping this requirement. I do not think they will, but they are contemplating it non the less.[/quote]

Ok. Not sure if there was a question here.

Eh?

Let’s see if I understand you correctly. You do favor the authority of the Church?

What? You just got done talking about a threat to Catholic charities recieving grants…

You’re confusing me again. I don’t know if you regret the Catholic Church’s claim to authority, or bemoan the lack of it.

And many are protestant. And they’re all American. But, I’m not sure what any of that has to do with what.

Generally noone is barred from taking the sacrement. There isn’t a ‘no flight’ list, or face recognition software screening the line to the host. The unworthy partaking of the sacrment is on the shoulders of the person recieving. And most excommunications are self-imposed with no official proclamation. Excommunication happens at the act, not because you got caught.

…You mean they get caught and realize their political career is over.

826

Stated,

"Thank you and now we are getting somewhere. Now, there are scriptures referring to God’s mercy on those who do not necessarily believe as we do or are not Christians. For are not those who show mercy to their neighbor living the word of Christ? What if they are a hindu? Is it less the word of God when a hindu does it?

If a muslim stands up and stops a terror attack to his own life? Is he not living out the word of Christ?

What if a jew saves a muslim baby from perishing in yet more violence in the occupied territories. Is he living the word of Christ any less?

These types of things happen, you know. People, non-Christians and Christains alike displaying mercy and goodness. Should they be condemned, according to the word?"

The Catholic Church Standard,

"The Council of Trent, in its opposition to the reformer’s doctrine of justification by faith, and in defense of its doctrine of penance, declared: ‘Whosoever shall affirm that men are justified solely by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ… let him be accursed’ (Council of Trent, section 6.) And the Catholic Almanac says, ‘Penance is necessary for salvation…and was instituted by Christ for the forgiveness of sins’. (pps. 269, 559.)

The modern church teachings completely concur: ‘Many things are necessary for salvation. All these things work together faith, baptism, the Eucharist, the doing of good works, and others as well. Redemption is one thing, salvation is quite another. There is nothing lacking on Christ’s part; there is much to be done on ours.’ (‘The Apostles Creed’ published by the Knights of Columbus, pps 18-19.) Also, in a booklet published in 1967, under the sub-heading, ‘We Must Atone Too’, it says that ‘even though the satisfaction of Christ was complete and universal, nevertheless all adult Christians are obliged to imitate their suffering Master and make personal satisfaction for their sins by good works’. (‘You Shall Rise Again’ published by the Knights of Columbus, p. 3.)" … Keith Green

The Standard of the Holy Scriptures,

Ephesians 2:8-10

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of your selves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

Our salvation comes as a gift of God’s grace, but it can only be appropriated by the human response of faith, in Jesus Christ, the only condition God requires for salvation. One cannot be saved by works, good deeds, or trying to keep God’s commandments. One must be saved by the grace of God. What brings salvation is God’s grace through faith.

Verses 8-10 remind believers that they need to accept what God has provided them in Christ Jesus. We see an amplification of the statement in verse 5, “by grace ye are saved.” In the original language this verse begins with the definite article “the” before “grace” (te … chariti). Also, the verse begins in the Greek with a postpositive “for” (gar) which could be translated “because.” Grace is the “cause” for the total plan of God. On the one hand, grace is the objective, instrumental cause of salvation. On the other hand, faith is the subjective medium for the process of salvation, so it is a neccessary condition, not just to the granting of faith to believe.

Even though it is not possible to earn salvation, this verse reminds us that work indeed is involved in the total process, that is, God’s work. We are the result of that work. The total passage has come “full circle.” Verse 2 reminds us that those in a lost state “walked” (periepatesate) a certain way. The last word in verse 10 in the Greek language is the word “walk” (peripatesomen) again. Only here the walking as believers is as His “workmanship,” as products of what God’s grace can do in people. Christians are God’s “work of art,” His “masterpiece,” so they may “walk about” in good works. Im fact, believers were “created in Christ Jesus” for that very purpose. Good works do not bring salvation to a person; they are the result of salvation.

The Apostle Peter’s view,

II Peter 1:5-7

“…add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.”

Nowhere do I see where the Apostle Peter states, " Many things are necessary for salvation. All these things work together faith, baptism, the Eucharist, the doing of good works, and others as well. Redemption is one thing, salvation is quite another. There is nothing lacking on Christ’s part; there is much to be done on ours."

The Apostle Peter’s view is not what is needed for salvation but rather, the results of salvation, contrary to the Catholic Church view.

Reiterating a part of the statement at the begining of this reply, “…Should they be condemned, according to the word?”

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18).

This will be my last contribution to this post as I “shake off the dust” from my feet (Matt. 10:14) concerning the Catholic Church Doctrines of man.

With love, gentleness, patience, and meekness …

MARANATHA (Our Lord cometh)

827

[quote]Sloth wrote:
<<< When you repudiate your WASP ancestors and depart this land for Europe, I’ll take the relinquishment and reperations talk seriously. It makes for good drama, but when it’s aim is kept narrow, and just so happens to issue from an American protestant at the Catholic church…Well, you might as well be wearing a ‘Go team Protestant!’ t-shirt.

You’re a good guy. However, the double-dog-dare to us, the Catholic Church, to relinquish and make reperations, comes off as a bit insincere when delivered by an American protestant. This is a group whose homes, churches, and even nation, exist in large part because of the–all too often–bloody butchery of America’s early God-fearing forefathers. But I guess THAT was divine providence’s guiding hand, eh? Next time I drive by the reservation, I’ll keep your suggestions for us in mind. But, I also be wondering if you’ll lead the way. Maybe we can get neighboring seats on the flight to Europe?[/quote]It appears you missed my post from the previous page. Which I’m not chiding you for, there’s a lot going on here. It’s not drama. It’s reality.

I said:

[quote]The United States of America was a brutal, greedy, even Islamic like conqueror of this continent. She mercilessly and illegitimately displaced, dispersed imprisoned multitudes of indigenous people created in the image of almighty God in the name of an entirely unbiblical pagan ambition touted as “manifest destiny”.

To the extent the American protestant was complicit in this evil rape of North America I denounce it though I also recognize that said United States committed none of these sinful deeds under guise of being the “one true holy and apostolic church” in which is enthroned “the vicar of Christ” on earth. None the less the “creator” is invoked in her founding documents and she has committed crimes against humanity. She does not however claim or defame the name of Christ or imperil anybody’s eternal soul whether retaining her evil spoils of conquest or not. She has also gained such a station in the world where restitution is ontologically impossible even on symbolic level.

Further, the protestant (OK and Baptist =] ) evangelical regard for the charge of our Lord and his apostles to take the only means of salvation to the ends of the earth obligates us to be wherever mankind resides in obedience to the preceding.

Rome’s turn. Now what? Not being in any way analogous to the United States I have some very serious suggestions. (that will never happen)

Psst. (whispering) I’ll let ya in on a little secret. I would love nothing more than for there to be one true holy and apostolic church if it were up to me. Believe that my friend. If there ever was going to one however it could NOT be this one in anything like it’s present state. After you answer this post. I’ll tell you something else that may surprise you. [/quote]

828

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Let’s see if I understand you correctly. You do favor the authority of the Church?
[/quote]

Yes, I am in favor of the authority of the Church over her laity. My issue is Nancy Pelosi claims to be Catholic. Catholics have been excommunicated by the church for having abortions. Nancy Pelosi tried shoving a bill down our throat that allowed the US Government to pay for abortions. The Catholic Church should excommunicate her. I have issues with people who love God out one side of their mouth, and hate God out the other. Maybe Nancy Pelosi is nothing more than one of those Easter Christmas Catholics. There are Easter Catholic Protestants, and I have issues with those also. You are either hot or cold, there is no inbetween. If you are luke warm God will spit you out of his mouth. Many people who profess that Christ is Lord will not go to Heaven. You have to live it out in your life.

All of us Christians on this site, and everyone knows who they are, that are confessing Christ and getting into arguments between our theology IMO are all going to heaven. It is obvious that all of you know who Jesus is and follow him. I am more questioning the majority of Christians who are not. Billy Graham once said that maybe 20% of all people who go to church will actually go to heaven. The longer I go to church and get to know people in them the more I beleive it. That includes Protestant and Catholic churches.

829

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It appears you missed my post from the previous page. Which I’m not chiding you for, there’s a lot going on here. It’s not drama. It’s reality.

[/quote]

No, I saw it. However, it sort of read like “Well, our churches and homes are safe because there’s nothing we can do.” The american protestant surely isn’t waiting for a secular government to make them vacate the premises, are they?

830

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,

"Thank you and now we are getting somewhere. Now, there are scriptures referring to God’s mercy on those who do not necessarily believe as we do or are not Christians. For are not those who show mercy to their neighbor living the word of Christ? What if they are a hindu? Is it less the word of God when a hindu does it?

If a muslim stands up and stops a terror attack to his own life? Is he not living out the word of Christ?

What if a jew saves a muslim baby from perishing in yet more violence in the occupied territories. Is he living the word of Christ any less?

These types of things happen, you know. People, non-Christians and Christains alike displaying mercy and goodness. Should they be condemned, according to the word?"

The Catholic Church Standard,

"The Council of Trent, in its opposition to the reformer’s doctrine of justification by faith, and in defense of its doctrine of penance, declared: ‘Whosoever shall affirm that men are justified solely by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ… let him be accursed’ (Council of Trent, section 6.) And the Catholic Almanac says, ‘Penance is necessary for salvation…and was instituted by Christ for the forgiveness of sins’. (pps. 269, 559.)

The modern church teachings completely concur: ‘Many things are necessary for salvation. All these things work together faith, baptism, the Eucharist, the doing of good works, and others as well. Redemption is one thing, salvation is quite another. There is nothing lacking on Christ’s part; there is much to be done on ours.’ (‘The Apostles Creed’ published by the Knights of Columbus, pps 18-19.) Also, in a booklet published in 1967, under the sub-heading, ‘We Must Atone Too’, it says that ‘even though the satisfaction of Christ was complete and universal, nevertheless all adult Christians are obliged to imitate their suffering Master and make personal satisfaction for their sins by good works’. (‘You Shall Rise Again’ published by the Knights of Columbus, p. 3.)" … Keith Green

The Standard of the Holy Scriptures,

Ephesians 2:8-10

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of your selves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

Our salvation comes as a gift of God’s grace, but it can only be appropriated by the human response of faith, in Jesus Christ, the only condition God requires for salvation. One cannot be saved by works, good deeds, or trying to keep God’s commandments. One must be saved by the grace of God. What brings salvation is God’s grace through faith.

Verses 8-10 remind believers that they need to accept what God has provided them in Christ Jesus. We see an amplification of the statement in verse 5, “by grace ye are saved.” In the original language this verse begins with the definite article “the” before “grace” (te … chariti). Also, the verse begins in the Greek with a postpositive “for” (gar) which could be translated “because.” Grace is the “cause” for the total plan of God. On the one hand, grace is the objective, instrumental cause of salvation. On the other hand, faith is the subjective medium for the process of salvation, so it is a neccessary condition, not just to the granting of faith to believe.

Even though it is not possible to earn salvation, this verse reminds us that work indeed is involved in the total process, that is, God’s work. We are the result of that work. The total passage has come “full circle.” Verse 2 reminds us that those in a lost state “walked” (periepatesate) a certain way. The last word in verse 10 in the Greek language is the word “walk” (peripatesomen) again. Only here the walking as believers is as His “workmanship,” as products of what God’s grace can do in people. Christians are God’s “work of art,” His “masterpiece,” so they may “walk about” in good works. Im fact, believers were “created in Christ Jesus” for that very purpose. Good works do not bring salvation to a person; they are the result of salvation.

The Apostle Peter’s view,

II Peter 1:5-7

“…add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.”

Nowhere do I see where the Apostle Peter states, " Many things are necessary for salvation. All these things work together faith, baptism, the Eucharist, the doing of good works, and others as well. Redemption is one thing, salvation is quite another. There is nothing lacking on Christ’s part; there is much to be done on ours."

The Apostle Peter’s view is not what is needed for salvation but rather, the results of salvation, contrary to the Catholic Church view.

Reiterating a part of the statement at the begining of this reply, “…Should they be condemned, according to the word?”

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18).

This will be my last contribution to this post as I “shake off the dust” from my feet (Matt. 10:14) concerning the Catholic Church Doctrines of man.

With love, gentleness, patience, and meekness …

MARANATHA (Our Lord cometh) [/quote]

I asked for your view not a regurgitation of your protestant dogma.
Your faith would not exist if it were not for the Catholic church for the New Testament was born of her and not the other way around. You can shake your feet all you want but the dust will cling lest you renounce Christ himself.

Penance is merely a repentance. Are you claiming you need not repent for transgressions? Key word, you, not some cut and pasting from a hostile toward Catholics, Protestant manifesto. If ou really understood you would not be so hostile towards her.

831

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It appears you missed my post from the previous page. Which I’m not chiding you for, there’s a lot going on here. It’s not drama. It’s reality.

[/quote]

No, I saw it. However, it sort of read like “Well, our churches and homes are safe because there’s nothing we can do.” The american protestant surely isn’t waiting for a secular government to make them vacate the premises, are they?
[/quote]You are a much clearer thinker than this. You tried this same tune on me last time we got into it about the veneration of relics.

The United States is a secular entity. A country, a nation making no claim to divine authority and one for which I have made no claim of divine authority either. I disagree vehemently with Glenn Beck that our nation or our founding documents are “divinely inspired” and have said so. If the U.S. does something manifestly evil, people say, the U.S. is evil. Every secular nation on this planet is the result of somebody’s conquest sometime. That is the way of the WORLD. One cannot live in any developed region of the globe without dwelling in the wake of somebody’s previous occupation.

The Roman Catholic Church very unambiguously claims to be THE “one true holy apostolic CHURCH” for all the earth and in which sits ensconced “the vicar of Christ”, capable of speaking “ex cathedra” as if he were Christ Himself. When she commits cold systematic robbery of the poor in order to build a palace in which to house herself along with Christ’s alleged singular representative on earth, Christ’s divine holy name, person and reputation are reproached and defamed on a global scale. That reproach and defamation will not ever be removed so long as that monument to sin remains.

If I steal say, something from a store. If I am subsequently convicted of this sin and truly repent I will take it back and if the store is out of business I will for the sake of both my conscience and witness throw it away if I have to, but it DOES NOT BELONG TO ME. The RCC robbed untold thousands of squalored poor and still make prominent public use of the fruit of that ruthless theft.

United States? - Secular nation among thousands in history.

RCC? - One true holy apostolic church of Christ (so called)

A man going to visit independence hall is not in the same kingdom or world as a man attempting to procure “many benefits <> bestowed by God on men” (Trent 25) through venerating the arm bone of St Therese of Lisieux.

You get all this. I KNOW you do.

832

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,

"Thank you and now we are getting somewhere. Now, there are scriptures referring to God’s mercy on those who do not necessarily believe as we do or are not Christians. For are not those who show mercy to their neighbor living the word of Christ? What if they are a hindu? Is it less the word of God when a hindu does it?

If a muslim stands up and stops a terror attack to his own life? Is he not living out the word of Christ?

What if a jew saves a muslim baby from perishing in yet more violence in the occupied territories. Is he living the word of Christ any less?

These types of things happen, you know. People, non-Christians and Christains alike displaying mercy and goodness. Should they be condemned, according to the word?"

The Catholic Church Standard,

"The Council of Trent, in its opposition to the reformer’s doctrine of justification by faith, and in defense of its doctrine of penance, declared: ‘Whosoever shall affirm that men are justified solely by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ… let him be accursed’ (Council of Trent, section 6.) And the Catholic Almanac says, ‘Penance is necessary for salvation…and was instituted by Christ for the forgiveness of sins’. (pps. 269, 559.)

The modern church teachings completely concur: ‘Many things are necessary for salvation. All these things work together faith, baptism, the Eucharist, the doing of good works, and others as well. Redemption is one thing, salvation is quite another. There is nothing lacking on Christ’s part; there is much to be done on ours.’ (‘The Apostles Creed’ published by the Knights of Columbus, pps 18-19.) Also, in a booklet published in 1967, under the sub-heading, ‘We Must Atone Too’, it says that ‘even though the satisfaction of Christ was complete and universal, nevertheless all adult Christians are obliged to imitate their suffering Master and make personal satisfaction for their sins by good works’. (‘You Shall Rise Again’ published by the Knights of Columbus, p. 3.)" … Keith Green

The Standard of the Holy Scriptures,

Ephesians 2:8-10

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of your selves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

Our salvation comes as a gift of God’s grace, but it can only be appropriated by the human response of faith, in Jesus Christ, the only condition God requires for salvation. One cannot be saved by works, good deeds, or trying to keep God’s commandments. One must be saved by the grace of God. What brings salvation is God’s grace through faith.

Verses 8-10 remind believers that they need to accept what God has provided them in Christ Jesus. We see an amplification of the statement in verse 5, “by grace ye are saved.” In the original language this verse begins with the definite article “the” before “grace” (te … chariti). Also, the verse begins in the Greek with a postpositive “for” (gar) which could be translated “because.” Grace is the “cause” for the total plan of God. On the one hand, grace is the objective, instrumental cause of salvation. On the other hand, faith is the subjective medium for the process of salvation, so it is a neccessary condition, not just to the granting of faith to believe.

Even though it is not possible to earn salvation, this verse reminds us that work indeed is involved in the total process, that is, God’s work. We are the result of that work. The total passage has come “full circle.” Verse 2 reminds us that those in a lost state “walked” (periepatesate) a certain way. The last word in verse 10 in the Greek language is the word “walk” (peripatesomen) again. Only here the walking as believers is as His “workmanship,” as products of what God’s grace can do in people. Christians are God’s “work of art,” His “masterpiece,” so they may “walk about” in good works. Im fact, believers were “created in Christ Jesus” for that very purpose. Good works do not bring salvation to a person; they are the result of salvation.

The Apostle Peter’s view,

II Peter 1:5-7

“…add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.”

Nowhere do I see where the Apostle Peter states, " Many things are necessary for salvation. All these things work together faith, baptism, the Eucharist, the doing of good works, and others as well. Redemption is one thing, salvation is quite another. There is nothing lacking on Christ’s part; there is much to be done on ours."

The Apostle Peter’s view is not what is needed for salvation but rather, the results of salvation, contrary to the Catholic Church view.

Reiterating a part of the statement at the begining of this reply, “…Should they be condemned, according to the word?”

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18).

This will be my last contribution to this post as I “shake off the dust” from my feet (Matt. 10:14) concerning the Catholic Church Doctrines of man.

With love, gentleness, patience, and meekness …

MARANATHA (Our Lord cometh) [/quote]

I apologize for my hostility, but when you say stuff like ““shake off the dust” from my feet (Matt. 10:14) concerning the Catholic Church Doctrines of man.” I start to doubt your sincerity toward the topic. We are brothers in Christ, if you do not agree it is on you not me.

I was asked who is to be condemned and who is to go to heaven, from there an attack on my faith ensued and it was not justified. We can attack each others theology all we want, all we will get is ill will.

The bible is not to be used as a weapon and to be used as a sense of pride for men. There are many rooms in God’s house. God isn’t a Christian, he is just God.

If we cannot discuss matters of faith cordially, if things are said like ““shake off the dust” from my feet (Matt. 10:14) concerning the Catholic Church Doctrines of man.” or “There may be Catholics in heaven, but only for the extreme mercy of God.” There is no humility, integrity or peace in those statements. They are statements of ill will and division.

We do not have be like each other to understand each other. We do not have to hold fast to the same discipline of faith to be brothers in Christ.

I will not condemn my non-christian brethren to hell. I do not believe, under any circumstance that God will send to hell good people of any faith so long as the heart is in the right place…I wouldn’t, and if God is much better than me, I seriously doubt he will too. It is not our place to say who he will condemn, we do not know. God can save who he wants and he does not have to listen to the whim of man.

833

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Let’s see if I understand you correctly. You do favor the authority of the Church?
[/quote]

Yes, I am in favor of the authority of the Church over her laity. My issue is Nancy Pelosi claims to be Catholic. Catholics have been excommunicated by the church for having abortions. Nancy Pelosi tried shoving a bill down our throat that allowed the US Government to pay for abortions. The Catholic Church should excommunicate her. I have issues with people who love God out one side of their mouth, and hate God out the other. Maybe Nancy Pelosi is nothing more than one of those Easter Christmas Catholics. There are Easter Catholic Protestants, and I have issues with those also. You are either hot or cold, there is no inbetween. If you are luke warm God will spit you out of his mouth. Many people who profess that Christ is Lord will not go to Heaven. You have to live it out in your life.

All of us Christians on this site, and everyone knows who they are, that are confessing Christ and getting into arguments between our theology IMO are all going to heaven. It is obvious that all of you know who Jesus is and follow him. I am more questioning the majority of Christians who are not. Billy Graham once said that maybe 20% of all people who go to church will actually go to heaven. The longer I go to church and get to know people in them the more I beleive it. That includes Protestant and Catholic churches.[/quote]

Nasty Pelosi is a despicable bitch. If her behavior is any example she is more out of communion with the church than the typical atheist. Excommunication is a self imposed state, it does not have to be announced it almost never is.

I agree, we are all brothers in the end and we need to act like it. Taking pot shots at ones faith is not the way to do it.

Christianity as a whole is bashed and maligned and despised by the world. We do better standing together than we do standing apart. We can learn from each other without saying. From what I have read, there is complete and total misinformation about Catholicism. Almost everything I have heard has been wrong. We don’t burn goats and worship pictures.

My suggestion is this to all, either stand down on what you do not know, or truly get to know it, if you are really curious. Do really on talking points and diatribe with those who have an axe to grind. You will find more similarity than you think.

834

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It appears you missed my post from the previous page. Which I’m not chiding you for, there’s a lot going on here. It’s not drama. It’s reality.

[/quote]

No, I saw it. However, it sort of read like “Well, our churches and homes are safe because there’s nothing we can do.” The american protestant surely isn’t waiting for a secular government to make them vacate the premises, are they?
[/quote]You are a much clearer thinker than this. You tried this same tune on me last time we got into it about the veneration of relics.

The United States is a secular entity. A country, a nation making no claim to divine authority and one for which I have made no claim of divine authority either. I disagree vehemently with Glenn Beck that our nation or our founding documents are “divinely inspired” and have said so. If the U.S. does something manifestly evil, people say, the U.S. is evil. Every secular nation on this planet is the result of somebody’s conquest sometime. That is the way of the WORLD. One cannot live in any developed region of the globe without dwelling in the wake of somebody’s previous occupation.

The Roman Catholic Church very unambiguously claims to be THE “one true holy apostolic CHURCH” for all the earth and in which sits ensconced “the vicar of Christ”, capable of speaking “ex cathedra” as if he were Christ Himself. When she commits cold systematic robbery of the poor in order to build a palace in which to house herself along with Christ’s alleged singular representative on earth, Christ’s divine holy name, person and reputation are reproached and defamed on a global scale. That reproach and defamation will not ever be removed so long as that monument to sin remains.

If I steal say, something from a store. If I am subsequently convicted of this sin and truly repent I will take it back and if the store is out of business I will for the sake of both my conscience and witness throw it away if I have to, but it DOES NOT BELONG TO ME. The RCC robbed untold thousands of squalored poor and still make prominent public use of the fruit of that ruthless theft.

United States? - Secular nation among thousands in history.

RCC? - One true holy apostolic church of Christ (so called)

A man going to visit independence hall is not in the same kingdom or world as a man attempting to procure “many benefits <> bestowed by God on men” (Trent 25) through venerating the arm bone of St Therese of Lisieux.

You get all this. I KNOW you do.
[/quote]

So is the US government preventing the protestant from making his exodus? Why is the protestant not tearing down his churches and turning the land over to the native? Why isn’t he liquidating his property and paying reperation to the black man? Is the best counter to a Catholic, “Yeah, the whole heathen thing…and yeah, the Salem type stuff…well, you see, the US is secular!” Ok, the US is secular…and? The protestant who justified their actions weren’t. The protestants living upon the results of those actions aren’t. The US government means jack to my counter-dare. The protestant isn’t enthralled, paralyzed in inaction, because the US government is secular. Does it take a secular government to pass a law to get the american protestant moving on this? Lead by example on this or let it go.

And, if we’re going this route, then you can chuck the bible and sola scriptura into the fire. If the Church deserves your condemnation, for the wrongs committed in it’s name, than your bible deserves no better treatment.

Oh, and the Pope doesn’t own the Vatican or it’s art. You know this. That’s what I’m finding frustrasting. You’re going for dramatic effect, even if you know you’re misleading.

835

[quote]pat wrote:
The bible is not to be used as a weapon and to be used as a sense of pride for men. [/quote]

Pat I have to differ. I know you do not like cut and paste verses of the Bible, but this makes my point. The Bible is a weapon, it is a sword. The Sword in Roman Times was the weapon of choice. The Word of God cuts all the way to the heart. That is what it is to be used for. It hurts no doubt about it when your heart is soft and receives it. It will heal you after it cuts out all your sins.

Eph 6: 10-18

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

836

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Let’s see if I understand you correctly. You do favor the authority of the Church?
[/quote]

Yes, I am in favor of the authority of the Church over her laity. My issue is Nancy Pelosi claims to be Catholic. Catholics have been excommunicated by the church for having abortions. Nancy Pelosi tried shoving a bill down our throat that allowed the US Government to pay for abortions. The Catholic Church should excommunicate her. I have issues with people who love God out one side of their mouth, and hate God out the other. Maybe Nancy Pelosi is nothing more than one of those Easter Christmas Catholics. There are Easter Catholic Protestants, and I have issues with those also. You are either hot or cold, there is no inbetween. If you are luke warm God will spit you out of his mouth. Many people who profess that Christ is Lord will not go to Heaven. You have to live it out in your life.

All of us Christians on this site, and everyone knows who they are, that are confessing Christ and getting into arguments between our theology IMO are all going to heaven. It is obvious that all of you know who Jesus is and follow him. I am more questioning the majority of Christians who are not. Billy Graham once said that maybe 20% of all people who go to church will actually go to heaven. The longer I go to church and get to know people in them the more I beleive it. That includes Protestant and Catholic churches.[/quote]

Nasty Pelosi is a despicable bitch. If her behavior is any example she is more out of communion with the church than the typical atheist. Excommunication is a self imposed state, it does not have to be announced it almost never is.

I agree, we are all brothers in the end and we need to act like it. Taking pot shots at ones faith is not the way to do it.

Christianity as a whole is bashed and maligned and despised by the world. We do better standing together than we do standing apart. We can learn from each other without saying. From what I have read, there is complete and total misinformation about Catholicism. Almost everything I have heard has been wrong. We don’t burn goats and worship pictures.

My suggestion is this to all, either stand down on what you do not know, or truly get to know it, if you are really curious. Do really on talking points and diatribe with those who have an axe to grind. You will find more similarity than you think.[/quote]

I will respect this request. I will have to spend more time in prayer and in the word. I might even pick up the Baltimore Catechism. Dont worry Tiribulus. Of what I have seen here, and what I have read about the current CCC the Baltimore Catchism is more linked with Conservative RCC than the more liberal RCC that beleives whole heartidly in the current CCC. Not taking a pot shot, just making an observation.

I am leaving for Germany in a couple of days, and will have some time to do some reading. I am going to pick up a lot of material. I am going to revisit Luthers 95 Thesis.

837

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I will not condemn my non-christian brethren to hell. I do not believe, under any circumstance that God will send to hell good people of any faith so long as the heart is in the right place…I wouldn’t, and if God is much better than me, I seriously doubt he will too. It is not our place to say who he will condemn, we do not know. God can save who he wants and he does not have to listen to the whim of man. [/quote]Let’s not listen to the whims of men, but the word of God: The capitals are in the translation and indicate a quotation of the OT.
Romans 3:9-18 where Paul quotes from the 14th Psalm.

[quote]“9>>>>both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10-as it is written,
THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11-THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12-ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.
13-THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,
THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS
14-WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS
15-THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16-DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS
17-AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.
18-THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”[/quote]You do realize if you’re wrong how many souls will perish because nobody told them thinking they were good doing the best they can? If you’re wrong “Mary’s Meals” far from being faithful, would then be a work of death? I don’t know where you ever got the idea that I don’t like you Pat. You really don’t understand at all.

WHAT IF the above passage simply means what it says. I am not condemning ANYBODY. I am simply reading the bible. Whatever works and good faith effort at pleasing God people put forth apart from the living Savior the above is God’s response. That’s where I’m coming from. This is not a leisurely debate about some differing opinions it’s eternal life and death. Your whole viewpoint about how what you would do is arrogant beyond belief. If the above quotation from Paul from the 14th Psalm is the simple truth then it is also the explanation for why what you or I think is absolutely irrelevant. I cannot help it if you do, but I would not ever want you to view me as your personal enemy.

838

[quote]pat wrote:
Nasty Pelosi is a despicable bitch. If her behavior is any example she is more out of communion with the church than the typical atheist. Excommunication is a self imposed state, it does not have to be announced it almost never is.

[/quote]

I was under impression that the church excommunicated people. The Eastern Orthodox did not Excommunicate themselves out of the Church. The Pope excommunicated the Patriarch. Luther did not want to leave the Catholic Church he was excommunicated from it. Luther always considered himself a Catholic from my readings. He hated the fact that he could not go back to the Catholic Church. My readings are not extensive by any stretch of the imagination, but I did pick up a biography on him.

839

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I will not condemn my non-christian brethren to hell. I do not believe, under any circumstance that God will send to hell good people of any faith so long as the heart is in the right place…I wouldn’t, and if God is much better than me, I seriously doubt he will too. It is not our place to say who he will condemn, we do not know. God can save who he wants and he does not have to listen to the whim of man. [/quote]Let’s not listen to the whims of men, but the word of God: The capitals are in the translation and indicate a quotation of the OT.
Romans 3:9-18 where Paul quotes from the 14th Psalm.

[quote]“9>>>>both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10-as it is written,
THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11-THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12-ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.
13-THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,
THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS
14-WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS
15-THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16-DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS
17-AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.
18-THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”[/quote]You do realize if you’re wrong how many souls will perish because nobody told them thinking they were good doing the best they can? If you’re wrong “Mary’s Meals” far from being faithful, would then be a work of death? I don’t know where you ever got the idea that I don’t like you Pat. You really don’t understand at all.

WHAT IF the above passage simply means what it says. I am not condemning ANYBODY. I am simply reading the bible. Whatever works and good faith effort at pleasing God people put forth apart from the living Savior the above is God’s response. That’s where I’m coming from. This is not a leisurely debate about some differing opinions it’s eternal life and death. Your whole viewpoint about how what you would do is arrogant beyond belief. If the above quotation from Paul from the 14th Psalm is the simple truth then it is also the explanation for why what you or I think is absolutely irrelevant. I cannot help it if you do, but I would not ever want you to view me as your personal enemy.

[/quote]

I am not wrong, so I am not worried. People choose their own paths, I am small issue to it. I just don’t appreciate the unwarranted cut downs on my faith. I did nothing to deserve it. Next, you do not know enough about Catholicism to know it’s wrong. So you don’t know where people are being led by the church. We’re all about the Lord.

840

[quote]Sloth wrote:
<<< So is the US government preventing the protestant from making his exodus? Why is the protestant not tearing down his churches and turning the land over to the native? Why isn’t he liquidating his property and paying reperation to the black man? Is the best counter to a Catholic, “Yeah, the whole heathen thing…and yeah, the Salem type stuff…well, you see, the US is secular!” Ok, the US is secular…and? The protestant who justified their actions weren’t. The protestants living upon the results of those actions aren’t. The US government means jack to my counter-dare. The protestant isn’t enthralled, paralyzed in inaction, because the US government is secular. Does it take a secular government to pass a law to get the american protestant moving on this? Lead by example on this or let it go. >>>[/quote]You’re killin with this. Killin me. All true, I and millions of others over the years are complete hypocrites. Now When does the “one true holy apostolic church” in which alone are the keys to the kingdom repent? WHEN!!!

(BTW, there is no way you are convincing me that you see any real teeth in this line of argumentation. You could defend my side of this just as well as I can if we were talking about some televangelist charlatan and you know it. It’s all you have. I told somebody in a PM where I was describing my respect for you that sometimes I wanted to hug you and choke you at the same time. This is one of those times)

[quote]Sloth wrote:And, if we’re going this route, then you can chuck the bible and sola scriptura into the fire. If the Church deserves your condemnation, for the wrongs committed in it’s name, than your bible deserves no better treatment. [/quote] Aw now this weak. I am not condemning the RCC for wrongs committed in her name. I am condemning her for wrongs SHE committed… in her official self proclaimed capacities as the “one true holy apostolic church” and by those occupying the highest positions of spiritual AND political power therein. Heinous wrongs she to this day continues to benefit from having never properly repented for 5 centuries.[quote]Sloth wrote:
Oh, and the Pope doesn’t own the Vatican or it’s art. You know this. That’s what I’m finding frustrasting. You’re going for dramatic effect, even if you know you’re misleading.[/quote](flustered, but still friendly chuckling voice) Of course I know the pope does not own the vatican or any of it’s obscenely opulent contents man LOL. Come on I defy you to find where I said or even implied that. I said “he lives there”. The “one true most holy and apostolic church” is administered from and the “vicar of Christ” on earth lives in a stolen palace that is without rival anywhere on this planet. Even though the 8th commandment remains “thou shalt not steal” and the “the Son of Man had nowhere to lay His head”. Have you considered what the levitical penalty might be something like this? It would have taken Aaron’s crew six months to figure it out.