Misconceptions of Christianity 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
841

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Nasty Pelosi is a despicable bitch. If her behavior is any example she is more out of communion with the church than the typical atheist. Excommunication is a self imposed state, it does not have to be announced it almost never is.

[/quote]

I was under impression that the church excommunicated people. The Eastern Orthodox did not Excommunicate themselves out of the Church. The Pope excommunicated the Patriarch. Luther did not want to leave the Catholic Church he was excommunicated from it. Luther always considered himself a Catholic from my readings. He hated the fact that he could not go back to the Catholic Church. My readings are not extensive by any stretch of the imagination, but I did pick up a biography on him.[/quote]

There were a lot of politics in the ye olde days, there was no separation of church and state. The Eastern Orthodox left on their own. But they held the apostolic traditions.

Now Martin Luther is a bit more problematic. I don’t know a whole lot about Martin Luther. It depends on when his dogmas came. If he was only fighting corruption, then he was unjustly excommunicated. If he was spreading the dogmas of ‘faith only’ and Bible only salvation, prior to the leaving the church, then he was in fact out of communion with the church.

It was a time of suffering in the church no doubt.

Few people are thrown out though. Very few…I don’t even remember the last one that

842

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I am not condemning the RCC for wrongs committed in her name. I am condemning her for wrongs SHE committed… [/quote]

Then please, if you must, remain consistent and condemn the bible in the same vein. Not for the wrongs committed in it’s name, but for the wrongs it committed. The Church is unblemished, it isn’t stained by the sins of it’s members. While it’s members may stumble, while it’s members can do ugly things, the Church will ultimately prevail.

You say you wish for an apostolic church? Christ left one (not many). One with a ministerial priesthood. Though my sola scripturas friends chastise the Church’s authority to interpret scripture, he overlooks the above to advance his own reading. Despite his promise, apparently Satan defeated Christ’s church and cast it down long ago. So, now the evangelical church of me, myself, and I obviously can’t find it. Otherwise, if not the Catholic Church, then name the true apostolic church Christ promised and left us? Which one? If one can’t be named, then Christ is defeated. If Christ hasn’t been defeated, then show me his apostolic church. That is my challenge.

843

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I am not wrong, so I am not worried. People choose their own paths, I am small issue to it. I just don’t appreciate the unwarranted cut downs on my faith. I did nothing to deserve it. Next, you do not know enough about Catholicism to know it’s wrong. So you don’t know where people are being led by the church. We’re all about the Lord.[/quote]OK, We’re not even speaking the same language. All of us non catholics here have differing beliefs in some areas, but we speak the same language. The church I go to is 95% black in the heart of the Detroit ghetto. We disagree on some things, but on the meat of the gospel and living the Christian life? Boy do we ever speak the same language. On a totally unrelated note the city of Detroit would be won for Christ in a month if every “black” church in town were like this one. The senior pastor is a true Calvinist =] Different story.

You shouldn’t need to go to seminary for 4 years to understand the gospel of Christ. If someone can read as much as I have and still be as far off as you claim I am, then I don’t know how anything in the book of Acts could have ever gotten done.

844

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I am not condemning the RCC for wrongs committed in her name. I am condemning her for wrongs SHE committed… [/quote]

Then please, if you must, remain consistent and condemn the bible in the same vein. Not for the wrongs committed in it’s name, but for the wrongs it committed. The Church is unblemished, it isn’t stained by the sins of it’s members. While it’s members may stumble, while it’s members can do ugly things, the Church will ultimately prevail.

You say you wish for an apostolic church? Christ left one (not many). One with a ministerial priesthood. Though my sola scripturas friends chastise the Church’s authority to interpret scripture, he overlooks the above to advance his own reading. Despite his promise, apparently Satan defeated Christ’s church and cast it down long ago. So, now the evangelical church of me, myself, and I obviously can’t find it. Otherwise, if not the Catholic Church, then name the true apostolic church Christ promised and left us? Which one? If one can’t be named, then Christ is defeated. If Christ hasn’t been defeated, then show me his apostolic church. That is my challenge.[/quote]I will answer your challenge as soon you answer mine which I asked first and about 10 times now. Is it possible for their to be fruitful repentance wherein the ill gotten gain of an organized criminal enterprise is retained for open public flagrant use by any organization on the face of God’s green earth other than the Roman Catholic Church? If so who?

If there is no such fruitful repentance for any other entity anywhere anytime than how much more should be expected from she who boldly claims the title of “one true most holy apostolic church” and in whom dwells the “vicar of Christ Himself”? If this latter is indeed the case then I politely repeat. When, pray tell will the “one true most holy and apostolic church” which holds the only set of “keys to the kingdom” repent of it’s heinous God reproaching, Christ defaming crimes? We’ve been waiting 500 years.

845

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
When, pray tell will the “one true most holy and apostolic church” which holds the only set of “keys to the kingdom” repent of it’s heinous God reproaching, Christ defaming crimes? We’ve been waiting 500 years.
[/quote]

We have repented, do repent, and will continue to repent. We do it frequently. Your question has now been answered. It had been answered, in reality, before you even posed it here.

Now, when can we expect an apology for sola scriptura an the evils under it’s name?

846

And, if you’re demanding we do public ‘works,’ such as in liquidating our Vatican and it’s art…the evangelical, friend or not, can take his white anglo-saxon protestant butt right back to europe before I’ll take him seriously.

847

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Next time I drive by the reservation, I’ll keep your suggestions for us in mind. But, I also be wondering if you’ll lead the way. Maybe we can get neighboring seats on the flight to Europe?[/quote]

Please forgive me, but I am a light weight as many has seen on here. The protestants that moved to American and founded this Country, wrote in the Constitution that there is to be separation of Church and State. The original set up that God ordained in the Old Testament. The acts of the Government is not led by any church whether Protestant, nor Catholic.

Are you saying that the Native Americans here in America were forced to go to the Reservation because the Protestant Churches in this Country took their land?[/quote]

Um, the governments in the OT, didn’t have seperation of Church and State.[/quote]

Um, yes it did. The King was not to preform the priestly duties, and the priests were not to be the King. Look at Saul. Saul slaughtered all those bulls because he wanted to get to fighting. In doing that God told him through the prophet that his lineage would be destroyed. His kingdom would be taken away from him. God used the priests to tell the King what God wanted, but the priests never went to war to fight in the battles. That was the Kings duties. Separation of church and state at its pureist form.[/quote]

Lawl, that is not seperation of Church and State. That’s a seperation of duty. The David ate of the bread that was reserved for the Priests. David wrote Psalms. David ruled a Godly kingdom, so did Solomon. David tried to follow God’s will, and he made religious deisions I’m sure. Like curtailing other religions in his Kingdom, and the Jewish Judges went to war with other people for religious reasons. Not really a seperation of Church and State there.

848

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
The bible is not to be used as a weapon and to be used as a sense of pride for men. [/quote]

Pat I have to differ. I know you do not like cut and paste verses of the Bible, but this makes my point. The Bible is a weapon, it is a sword. The Sword in Roman Times was the weapon of choice. The Word of God cuts all the way to the heart. That is what it is to be used for. It hurts no doubt about it when your heart is soft and receives it. It will heal you after it cuts out all your sins.

Eph 6: 10-18

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.[/quote]

I think I see the light on what you guys believe, it never accord to me that you actually believe the Bible has powers. Wow, I get it now.

It is not a book that has powers, it is the message. It is what happened, it is Jesus that has the power, not a book. It is the Truth that the book tells, because it is difficult for people to memorize word for word what the Truth is. But the book does not hold the Truth, it is not only in the Bible that the Truth is. The Truth is Jesus, he is the Good News, he is the Gospel. The fact that he Gospel was written in no uncertain terms does the Bible get it’s power, and the only reason the Bible is relevant is because of Jesus. The Bible did not forecome Jesus. Jesus would have done the same thing sans-Bible. I thought people understood this, but I guess I am mistaken.

849

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I am not wrong, so I am not worried. People choose their own paths, I am small issue to it. I just don’t appreciate the unwarranted cut downs on my faith. I did nothing to deserve it. Next, you do not know enough about Catholicism to know it’s wrong. So you don’t know where people are being led by the church. We’re all about the Lord.[/quote]OK, We’re not even speaking the same language. All of us non catholics here have differing beliefs in some areas, but we speak the same language. The church I go to is 95% black in the heart of the Detroit ghetto. We disagree on some things, but on the meat of the gospel and living the Christian life? Boy do we ever speak the same language. On a totally unrelated note the city of Detroit would be won for Christ in a month if every “black” church in town were like this one. The senior pastor is a true Calvinist =] Different story.

You shouldn’t need to go to seminary for 4 years to understand the gospel of Christ. If someone can read as much as I have and still be as far off as you claim I am, then I don’t know how anything in the book of Acts could have ever gotten done.[/quote]

So he gets his orders from Geneva huh? And you guys go around whipping people after confession to your priest…interesting. I’m sure blacks would love that.

Anyway, one thing I learned from Southern Baptist and Baptists a like, and I think (looking at how some Catholics dress in Church when I know they got those big paying jobs) more Christians should do this. Learn how to dress for Church, all you have to do (they go to Church for about 3-4 hours so you’ll have time to catch them as they get out) is go down and watch the people that come out of the Church. Best dressed people you’ll see in your life. Doesn’t matter if in a few hours they’ll be sitting on the street corner selling crack, when they go to Church, the dress to impress the Lord.

1600-3000 dollar suits, designer sun dresses, patent leather shoes and high heals, hair did up, hair cuts, shaved clean, hats!, nice watches, bracelets, jewelry, rings, &c.

I get tired of these kids coming to church with their pants sagging, I once watched a black women beat her 17 year old son when she watched him walk in the door of the church with a do-rag and jeans on.

Wouldn’t see someone dressed like that to go to court? Why are you going to dress like that for God? I love this one, “God doesn’t care how you dress?” Har har har.

850

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
When, pray tell will the “one true most holy and apostolic church” which holds the only set of “keys to the kingdom” repent of it’s heinous God reproaching, Christ defaming crimes? We’ve been waiting 500 years.
[/quote]

We have repented, do repent, and will continue to repent. We do it frequently. Your question has now been answered. It had been answered, in reality, before you even posed it here.

Now, when can we expect an apology for sola scriptura an the evils under it’s name?[/quote]OK, so then who else is allowed to extort and steal, keep and utilize the gain and call that repentance? Just one example except the “one true holy apostolic church” will do. That’s a great deal. If I were live after my old man born in the first Adam I’d be baptized catholic in a minute. I could start some kinda extortion racket, make all my money problems go away and just say “I have repented, do repent, and will continue to repent. I do it frequently.” No need to make restitution or for the sake of the appearance of evil to even give up my criminal profits. After all the “the one true most holy apostolic church” has been doing it for 500 years. The “vicar of Christ” is my example no? He lives in a palace to this day, built on the lowest form of religious extortion imaginable.

I am not trying to be a bad guy or unnecessarily antagonistic, especially with you, I beg you to believe that, but you cannot run from this with “OOOOHHHHH… we did that already now shut up”. Unless your next post tells me that your church is actually to be held to a lower standard before God and man than everybody else then no she has not repented and has been living in open public rebellion to the God of heaven for 5 centuries as I type this.

I will address your challenges. I give you my word, but you have most assuredly not owned the reality of this situation as of yet.

851

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< So he gets his orders from Geneva huh? And you guys go around whipping people after confession to your priest…interesting. I’m sure blacks would love that.

Anyway, one thing I learned from Southern Baptist and Baptists a like, and I think (looking at how some Catholics dress in Church when I know they got those big paying jobs) more Christians should do this. Learn how to dress for Church, all you have to do (they go to Church for about 3-4 hours so you’ll have time to catch them as they get out) is go down and watch the people that come out of the Church. Best dressed people you’ll see in your life. Doesn’t matter if in a few hours they’ll be sitting on the street corner selling crack, when they go to Church, the dress to impress the Lord.

1600-3000 dollar suits, designer sun dresses, patent leather shoes and high heals, hair did up, hair cuts, shaved clean, hats!, nice watches, bracelets, jewelry, rings, &c.

I get tired of these kids coming to church with their pants sagging, I once watched a black women beat her 17 year old son when she watched him walk in the door of the church with a do-rag and jeans on.

Wouldn’t see someone dressed like that to go to court? Why are you going to dress like that for God? I love this one, “God doesn’t care how you dress?” Har har har. [/quote]Chris you’re scarin me here buddy. What on earth are you talkin about? Here try this and you tell me what you think of this black Detroit ghetto preacher. http://gregnmary.gotdns.com/audio/brooks815.mp3 This is last Sunday when he started a series on, wadda coincidence, 1st John. I listened to 4 of Ignatius of the friary of our lady of Guadalupe’s homilies. Come on it’ll be cultural enrichment exercise for ya =] His name is Christopher Brooks and he’s younger than I am, but man oh man does he ever “get it”. LOL! these people love God dude. They couldn’t care less what color anybody is who shows up there. They treated us like we’d been family from birth the first time we went.

Oh yeah, nobody I know of worships or assigns supernatural powers to the bible itself. I don’t even capitalize the word in case you hadn’t noticed. It is the written Word of God against which we measure all matters of faith worship and morals. The living Word of God lives in our hearts or spirits and the 2 testify to one another’s veracity though the bible’s authority is entirely it’s own (yes I do fully comprehend the huge catholic discussion surrounding that).

I do believe in subjective communication from God to man as you well know, I “hear” His voice, I’m certain of it, but He will never tell me something that changes or expands His written word. He will and does occasionally tell me how to apply it in specific situations. He will never tell I am no longer required to love my wife like He loves me, but He does sometimes tell me how to do that.

852

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
OK, so then who else is allowed to extort and steal, keep and utilize the gain and call that repentance?
[/quote]

Apparently the white protestant male.

853

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
When, pray tell will the “one true most holy and apostolic church” which holds the only set of “keys to the kingdom” repent of it’s heinous God reproaching, Christ defaming crimes? We’ve been waiting 500 years.
[/quote]

We have repented, do repent, and will continue to repent. We do it frequently. Your question has now been answered. It had been answered, in reality, before you even posed it here.

Now, when can we expect an apology for sola scriptura an the evils under it’s name?[/quote]OK, so then who else is allowed to extort and steal, keep and utilize the gain and call that repentance? Just one example except the “one true holy apostolic church” will do. That’s a great deal. If I were live after my old man born in the first Adam I’d be baptized catholic in a minute. I could start some kinda extortion racket, make all my money problems go away and just say “I have repented, do repent, and will continue to repent. I do it frequently.” No need to make restitution or for the sake of the appearance of evil to even give up my criminal profits. After all the “the one true most holy apostolic church” has been doing it for 500 years. The “vicar of Christ” is my example no? He lives in a palace to this day, built on the lowest form of religious extortion imaginable.

I am not trying to be a bad guy or unnecessarily antagonistic, especially with you, I beg you to believe that, but you cannot run from this with “OOOOHHHHH… we did that already now shut up”. Unless your next post tells me that your church is actually to be held to a lower standard before God and man than everybody else then no she has not repented and has been living in open public rebellion to the God of heaven for 5 centuries as I type this.

I will address your challenges. I give you my word, but you have most assuredly not owned the reality of this situation as of yet.
[/quote]

We’re not giving up our Vatican or our art anymore than you’re giving up your home and heading for Europe. We’re not condemning our Church anymore than you condemn the bible. We’ve repented, repent, and will repent. That’s my answer. Now, where is the apostolic Church left by Christ? It shouldn’t require but a couple of words to answer. Point to it’s ministerial priesthood so we all may know it. It MUST exist, or Christ was wrong.

854

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
OK, so then who else is allowed to extort and steal, keep and utilize the gain and call that repentance?
[/quote]Apparently the white protestant male.[/quote]Unless you are still talking about the wholly non analogous United States by conquest of America, please explain. And also please assume the friendliest of communications from me unless I give you clear evidence to the contrary. That goes for you too Pat. I am trying to bridle my demonstrative personality and writing style in such a way as to not appear quite so vituperative. When you can’t see somebody’s face or hear their voice the tone can be misconstrued.

855

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
OK, so then who else is allowed to extort and steal, keep and utilize the gain and call that repentance?
[/quote]Apparently the white protestant male.[/quote]Unless you are still talking about the wholly non analogous United States by conquest of America, please explain. And also please assume the friendliest of communications from me unless I give you clear evidence to the contrary. That goes for you too Pat. I am trying to bridle my demonstrative personality and writing style in such a way as to not appear quite so vituperative. When you can’t see somebody’s face or hear their voice the tone can be misconstrued.
[/quote]

The US and it’s political history is of no concern. I’m talking about protestant participation and justification. And, the beneficiaries living today.

856

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
When, pray tell will the “one true most holy and apostolic church” which holds the only set of “keys to the kingdom” repent of it’s heinous God reproaching, Christ defaming crimes? We’ve been waiting 500 years.
[/quote]

We have repented, do repent, and will continue to repent. We do it frequently. Your question has now been answered. It had been answered, in reality, before you even posed it here.

Now, when can we expect an apology for sola scriptura an the evils under it’s name?[/quote]OK, so then who else is allowed to extort and steal, keep and utilize the gain and call that repentance? Just one example except the “one true holy apostolic church” will do. That’s a great deal. If I were live after my old man born in the first Adam I’d be baptized catholic in a minute. I could start some kinda extortion racket, make all my money problems go away and just say “I have repented, do repent, and will continue to repent. I do it frequently.” No need to make restitution or for the sake of the appearance of evil to even give up my criminal profits. After all the “the one true most holy apostolic church” has been doing it for 500 years. The “vicar of Christ” is my example no? He lives in a palace to this day, built on the lowest form of religious extortion imaginable.

I am not trying to be a bad guy or unnecessarily antagonistic, especially with you, I beg you to believe that, but you cannot run from this with “OOOOHHHHH… we did that already now shut up”. Unless your next post tells me that your church is actually to be held to a lower standard before God and man than everybody else then no she has not repented and has been living in open public rebellion to the God of heaven for 5 centuries as I type this.

I will address your challenges. I give you my word, but you have most assuredly not owned the reality of this situation as of yet.
[/quote]

We’re not giving up our Vatican or our art anymore than you’re giving up your home and heading for Europe. We’re not condemning our Church anymore than you condemn the bible. We’ve repented, repent, and will repent. That’s my answer. Now, where is the apostolic Church left by Christ? It shouldn’t require but a couple of words to answer. Point to it’s ministerial priesthood so we all may know it. It MUST exist, or Christ was wrong. [/quote]I suppose for now I’ll have to leave it to the many readers to judge for themselves whether this " We’ve repented, repent, and will repent. That’s my answer." is an answer and whether the U.S. analogy holds water. They can also judge whether it exonerates Rome even if it does. There’s ten times as many views as posts for this thread which probably means many more are reading than posting. I’m gonna go out on limb and submit that you haven’t done Rome any PR favors here to which I’m sure you’ll reply that that isn’t your job or problem.

Now, I sincerely do not follow the train of thought in the underlined above. BTW, it makes no difference what you or I condemn. That and they stand condemned which and whom the Judge of all declares condemned… period.

857

[quote]Sloth wrote:
<<< The US and it’s political history is of no concern. I’m talking about protestant participation and justification. And, the beneficiaries living today.[/quote]I am not being difficult for difficulty’s sake, but I honestly don’t understand this either.

858

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I’m gonna go out on limb and submit that you haven’t done Rome any PR favors here to which I’m sure you’ll reply that that isn’t your job or problem.

[/quote]

I’m still curious about the apostolic Church Christ did leave us, with the ministerial priesthood we see in scripture itself, and which must–Per Christ’s assuarance it would prevail even against the gates of hell–exist yet today.

859

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
<<< The US and it’s political history is of no concern. I’m talking about protestant participation and justification. And, the beneficiaries living today.[/quote]I am not being difficult for difficulty’s sake, but I honestly don’t understand this either.
[/quote]

Perhaps the ancestors of the subjugated, enslaved, and nearly extinquished ‘heathens’ might explain it better than I.

860

I like how my pointing out the giving back Papal Estates that were collected as War Booty, by either someone we helped or someone ourselves fought is ignored.

I found a site for Tirib… Jesus-is-savior.com has some great anti-Catholic material that he can quote for truth.