Misconceptions of Christianity 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
681

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Where the hell did you get that I don’t take the bible seriously? If you think that then you have not read the my posts regarding the scriptures.

I get the impression you are speaking from an evangelical perspective. There is nothing wrong with that, but we are going to disagree with the default condemnation of non-Christians…Am I correct in assuming this is where you doubts on the basis of my faith comes from?

I am not your enemy. But feel free to test me. If I know the answer, I will answer you as honestly as I can.
[/quote]You don’t owe ME answers or anything else, that’s not the point. We also agree on quite a bit politically and like I say, if you knocked on my front door right now I wouldn’t even know it was you so I have nothing against you as a person.

All that said, having rethought this I am going to take it in an ongoing case by case basis unless you really want me to proceed. I would post an 18 inch piece filled with totally unambiguous, crystal clear (and very evangelical when unpolluted by the folly of man) bible, we could even make it the Douay Rheims in most cases if you want. You would explain it all away with some tortured theological gymnastics and go on maintaining how seriously you take the bible. It’s like the people who claim to love this country, but just happen to not be able to stand the major principles it was founded on.

I started this, so if you demand I go forward I will be honor bound to do so. It’ll take me a day or 2 put together something so unassailable that even the unbelievers, who much of it is actually directed at, will be looking at you with that raised eyebrow, “yeah, what about that?” looks on their faces. Of course they probably won’t agree with it, but they WILL be convinced that agree or not, that’s what it says.

[/quote]

I am not up for a wall of words, but if you have any questions on what I believe and why, feel free to ask. I have nothing to hide, and I do not have to use any sort of tortured logic…
I don’t see much need for a bible quoting pissing contest though. We’d never get through it all, it’s a pretty big book.[/quote]I rest my case. “Ask me whatever you want. I’ll give you logic, but I’m not gittin into the bible”.
[/quote]
I will get into the bible just fine…You misunderstand. I recall discussing things with the JW’s was chronically painful because all people kept doing was throwing versus at one another. I can copy and paste with the rest of them, that doesn’t prove I know scripture or that what I paste proves any kind of a point. After all Rev. Phelps and his imbecile cronies from the Westboro Baptist Church probably know the bible better than anyone here, yet I cannot think of anyone further from the truth, there is no bigger perverter of God’s word. Some how they got the message that hate is what God wants.
Bring your versus then and quit beating around the burning bush. Just don’t give me 18 inches of text…I hate that.

682

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I will get into the bible just fine…You misunderstand. I recall discussing things with the JW’s was chronically painful because all people kept doing was throwing versus at one another. I can copy and paste with the rest of them, that doesn’t prove I know scripture or that what I paste proves any kind of a point. After all Rev. Phelps and his imbecile cronies from the Westboro Baptist Church probably know the bible better than anyone here, yet I cannot think of anyone further from the truth, there is no bigger perverter of God’s word. Some how they got the message that hate is what God wants.
Bring your versus then and quit beating around the burning bush. Just don’t give me 18 inches of text…I hate that.[/quote]There are plenty of bigger perverters of God’s word than Phelps though he is deplorable. (another story) Lemme ask this. Who goes to hell and why?

683

What do you guys think about the website Why Won’t God Heal Amputees? The idea is that believers say God answers prayers to heal the sick ONLY in cases where medicine or ‘chance’ can do the healing. For example, cancer is a disease God cures, but God won’t heal amputees.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Thanks.

684

[quote]sen say wrote:
What do you guys think about the website Why Won’t God Heal Amputees? The idea is that believers say God answers prayers to heal the sick ONLY in cases where medicine or ‘chance’ can do the healing. For example, cancer is a disease God cures, but God won’t heal amputees.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Thanks.[/quote]

We actually discussed it in the previous thread “Misconceptions of Christianity”

685

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I will get into the bible just fine…You misunderstand. I recall discussing things with the JW’s was chronically painful because all people kept doing was throwing versus at one another. I can copy and paste with the rest of them, that doesn’t prove I know scripture or that what I paste proves any kind of a point. After all Rev. Phelps and his imbecile cronies from the Westboro Baptist Church probably know the bible better than anyone here, yet I cannot think of anyone further from the truth, there is no bigger perverter of God’s word. Some how they got the message that hate is what God wants.
Bring your versus then and quit beating around the burning bush. Just don’t give me 18 inches of text…I hate that.[/quote]There are plenty of bigger perverters of God’s word than Phelps though he is deplorable. (another story) Lemme ask this. Who goes to hell and why?
[/quote]

There aren’t much worse than phelps…I have step on more righteous dog shit, but your right, different topic. I was merely illustrating that knowing the words in the bible isn’t the same as knowing the bible.

Who goes to hell? Those who willfully and deliberately go against God and are unrepentant. Why? because they chose to do so. Those who go to hell chose that path out of their own freewill.

686

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]sen say wrote:
What do you guys think about the website Why Won’t God Heal Amputees? The idea is that believers say God answers prayers to heal the sick ONLY in cases where medicine or ‘chance’ can do the healing. For example, cancer is a disease God cures, but God won’t heal amputees.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Thanks.[/quote]

We actually discussed it in the previous thread “Misconceptions of Christianity”[/quote]

Actually it’s been brought up several times before. But it’s a bullshit question. It’s a red herring. Simply because somebody doesn’t that something hasn’t happened doesn’t mean it hasn’t. And even if it hasn’t, it is irrelevant to the discussion as to whether or not God exists. If God never performed a single miracle or never revealed himself to man in anyway, does not mean he doesn’t exist.

Besides, it may have happened and it may have happened a bunch. Doesn’t mean we are privy to knowing about it.

687

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I will get into the bible just fine…You misunderstand. I recall discussing things with the JW’s was chronically painful because all people kept doing was throwing versus at one another. I can copy and paste with the rest of them, that doesn’t prove I know scripture or that what I paste proves any kind of a point. After all Rev. Phelps and his imbecile cronies from the Westboro Baptist Church probably know the bible better than anyone here, yet I cannot think of anyone further from the truth, there is no bigger perverter of God’s word. Some how they got the message that hate is what God wants.
Bring your versus then and quit beating around the burning bush. Just don’t give me 18 inches of text…I hate that.[/quote]There are plenty of bigger perverters of God’s word than Phelps though he is deplorable. (another story) Lemme ask this. Who goes to hell and why?
[/quote]

There aren’t much worse than phelps…I have step on more righteous dog shit, but your right, different topic. I was merely illustrating that knowing the words in the bible isn’t the same as knowing the bible.

Who goes to hell? Those who willfully and deliberately go against God and are unrepentant. Why? because they chose to do so. Those who go to hell chose that path out of their own freewill. [/quote]I don’t wanna put words in your mouth. Are you saying that people are on their way to heaven until they willfully decide not to be?

Of course knowing where the words in the bible are is not the same as knowing the bible. You probably caught by now that I have an extensive background in polemics. I’ve deliberately read more heresy than most people have probably read the bible at the risk of coming off the wrong way. I have been up to my eardrums in twisted and mutilated scripture. Nobody can pull more perverted proof text outta their hats than Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s actually quite impressive.

688

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]sen say wrote:
What do you guys think about the website Why Won’t God Heal Amputees? The idea is that believers say God answers prayers to heal the sick ONLY in cases where medicine or ‘chance’ can do the healing. For example, cancer is a disease God cures, but God won’t heal amputees.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Thanks.[/quote]

We actually discussed it in the previous thread “Misconceptions of Christianity”[/quote]
I told the story of a guy I knew there that is the one bonafide case of healing I am convinced did actually happen and it was doozy. I’m certain there are others, but I am harder to convince than any unbeliever and in my personal experience that one was convincing.

689

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
@tirib: Do you happen to know any online-article/s or a list of verses that would do?[/quote]I didn’t see this, but I didn’t forget about ya. I’ve been sidetracked and not just here. What verses are you referring to?

690

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Sen Say! How do you do? Heard you went to the beach, which one did you go to?

Well, about the mocking thing. It’s like this, say you or someone you know is a moral relativist. Now when discussing with them, instead of calling it moral relativism, I call it some name, like dirty stoner hippie theory, now I just put a derogatory name on an otherwise non-derogatory named theory.

Now, I do not believe that moral relativism exists, but in an discussion, it would not lend credibility to my side or help the argument at all to call moral relativism the dirty stoner hippie theory. Not only does it confuse the subject at hand, but it’s also argument by word play, which is an ad hominem.

So, even though you do not believe in God, that doesn’t mean you cannot say the word God in argument. I mean if atheist religious studies professor can use the word God of Abraham, then I am sure you can![/quote]

Bethany Beach.

Good points on the atheist religious studies professors.

I didn’t mean to be so ass-hattish on my last posts. I apologize. I respect all you guys in here even if my posts said otherwise. I’ll do a better job.
[/quote]

Bethany Beach? Never been there, is it nice this time of the year?

It’s cool, I presumed you didn’t mean any harm by it. Otherwise I would have ignored ya.

691

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
@tirib: Do you happen to know any online-article/s or a list of verses that would do?[/quote]I didn’t see this, but I didn’t forget about ya. I’ve been sidetracked and not just here. What verses are you referring to?
[/quote]

Verses that you use as proof of how the bible should be read. But I will be away for a couple of days so it can wait anyway.

692

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I will get into the bible just fine…You misunderstand. I recall discussing things with the JW’s was chronically painful because all people kept doing was throwing versus at one another. I can copy and paste with the rest of them, that doesn’t prove I know scripture or that what I paste proves any kind of a point. After all Rev. Phelps and his imbecile cronies from the Westboro Baptist Church probably know the bible better than anyone here, yet I cannot think of anyone further from the truth, there is no bigger perverter of God’s word. Some how they got the message that hate is what God wants.
Bring your versus then and quit beating around the burning bush. Just don’t give me 18 inches of text…I hate that.[/quote]There are plenty of bigger perverters of God’s word than Phelps though he is deplorable. (another story) Lemme ask this. Who goes to hell and why?
[/quote]

There aren’t much worse than phelps…I have step on more righteous dog shit, but your right, different topic. I was merely illustrating that knowing the words in the bible isn’t the same as knowing the bible.

Who goes to hell? Those who willfully and deliberately go against God and are unrepentant. Why? because they chose to do so. Those who go to hell chose that path out of their own freewill. [/quote]I don’t wanna put words in your mouth. Are you saying that people are on their way to heaven until they willfully decide not to be?

Of course knowing where the words in the bible are is not the same as knowing the bible. You probably caught by now that I have an extensive background in polemics. I’ve deliberately read more heresy than most people have probably read the bible at the risk of coming off the wrong way. I have been up to my eardrums in twisted and mutilated scripture. Nobody can pull more perverted proof text outta their hats than Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s actually quite impressive.
[/quote]

No, I am not saying that. Of course God wants us to choose to be with him and he provides those opportunities. But one is certainly not on their way to heaven until they choose other wise. Each way is a choice. The one thing you cannot do, is not choose. Ultimately, by you choices, in the opportunities you are given, you make this choice.

693

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]sen say wrote:
What do you guys think about the website Why Won’t God Heal Amputees? The idea is that believers say God answers prayers to heal the sick ONLY in cases where medicine or ‘chance’ can do the healing. For example, cancer is a disease God cures, but God won’t heal amputees.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Thanks.[/quote]

We actually discussed it in the previous thread “Misconceptions of Christianity”[/quote]
I told the story of a guy I knew there that is the one bonafide case of healing I am convinced did actually happen and it was doozy. I’m certain there are others, but I am harder to convince than any unbeliever and in my personal experience that one was convincing. [/quote]

You cannot prove miracles on a forum. One who doubts needs a direct experience, even then, it may not be enough.

694

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…and from here it all turned to shit. What constitutes a succesful society is relative to your desires and needs. One society may think it’s succesful when it’s people have 10.000 square feet houses, 3 cars and all the latest gadgets. Other societies think plenty of vacation time and socialized healthcare consitutes a succesful society. These values may even be subject to change over time and can’t therefore be absolute…

…the only thing that can be construed as absolute is the succes of a society, but what constitutes a succesful society is relative to its needs and wants. No matter how you try to spin this katz, victory eludes you…[/quote]

A successful society is not relative to your wants. Needs are standard across the board. Communism meets your needs, there were no desires to be had, but yet it functioned. Those same now freed societies function the same way as they did under communism, just with more shit. So I don’t think shit defines a successful society. Where needs are not being met is where society breaks down. A hungry person will do anything for food. A tired person will do anything to rest, a sick person will do anything to feel better, etc. There are 2 basic things required for a society to function, needs of people have to be met, and people have to tolerate one another; which comes from family. As longs as those to things are in place, the group can function under a variety of conditions that are far from ideal and still be sucessful.

695

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< No, I am not saying that. Of course God wants us to choose to be with him and he provides those opportunities. But one is certainly not on their way to heaven until they choose other wise. Each way is a choice. The one thing you cannot do, is not choose. Ultimately, by you choices, in the opportunities you are given, you make this choice. [/quote]Please extrapolate from this post of yours from the trinity thread if you would. The underlined parts are especially important.
Pat said:[quote]"I don’t. Nor am I to judge whether you will go to hell or not. It’s not my place. I do highly disagree with the tenets of the JW’s and the origin of belief and the revision of scripture and history is highly suspect to me. That’s my problem. But I do not believe JW’s are bad people deserving of any kind of punishment. I believe anyone who truly loves God, and tries to be pleasing to him, will not be condemned. However, neither am I condemned because I do not believe as you do and I know that is what your church teach…That is wrong. I am not worm food just because I am not JW. I am not going to hell either because I am not Baptist, Church of Christ, Church of God, Pentecostal, Methodist, Universal, Jedi Knight, etcâ?¦…This type of retarded archaic thinking needs to stop. I consider myself a little bit of everything thought I am Catholic. I am Evangelical, I am Pentecostal, I am Eucharistic… I am not Jehovah’s Witness’ for that would call on me to deny the nature of God, that I will not do. But I do not condemn you for this belief, God is the judge and I believe what’s in your heart is more important than which Bible you thump.[/quote]BTW, there are some truths here, but please explain from the bible because that’s what were talking about, your own translation will be fine, how people who do the best they can to please God are not condemned. For that matter please explain from the bible how anyone can love and please God at all without a deliberate redeeming relationship with Jesus Christ. Bible only please. I’m really not trying to be an ass here, but this is deadly serious.

[quote]pat wrote:You cannot prove miracles on a forum. One who doubts needs a direct experience, even then, it may not be enough.[/quote]Absolutely correct. I only reported my experience as a testimony. I did not expect it would prove anything to anybody. I think we agree here.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< No, I am not saying that. Of course God wants us to choose to be with him and he provides those opportunities. But one is certainly not on their way to heaven until they choose other wise. Each way is a choice. The one thing you cannot do, is not choose. Ultimately, by you choices, in the opportunities you are given, you make this choice. [/quote]Please extrapolate from this post of yours from the trinity thread if you would. The underlined parts are especially important.
Pat said:[quote]"I don’t. Nor am I to judge whether you will go to hell or not. It’s not my place. I do highly disagree with the tenets of the JW’s and the origin of belief and the revision of scripture and history is highly suspect to me. That’s my problem. But I do not believe JW’s are bad people deserving of any kind of punishment. I believe anyone who truly loves God, and tries to be pleasing to him, will not be condemned. However, neither am I condemned because I do not believe as you do and I know that is what your church teach…That is wrong. I am not worm food just because I am not JW. I am not going to hell either because I am not Baptist, Church of Christ, Church of God, Pentecostal, Methodist, Universal, Jedi Knight, etcÃ?¢?Ã?¦…This type of retarded archaic thinking needs to stop. I consider myself a little bit of everything thought I am Catholic. I am Evangelical, I am Pentecostal, I am Eucharistic… I am not Jehovah’s Witness’ for that would call on me to deny the nature of God, that I will not do. But I do not condemn you for this belief, God is the judge and I believe what’s in your heart is more important than which Bible you thump.[/quote]BTW, there are some truths here, but please explain from the bible because that’s what were talking about, your own translation will be fine, how people who do the best they can to please God are not condemned. For that matter please explain from the bible how anyone can love and please God at all without a deliberate redeeming relationship with Jesus Christ. Bible only please. I’m really not trying to be an ass here, but this is deadly serious.

I’ll let pat do what he wants here, but just to inject. This is the reason most debates between Catholics and Protestants do not work (at least in my case) because Protestants always demand everything comes from the Bible.

697

[quote]pat wrote:<<< I will get into the bible just fine…You misunderstand. >>>[/quote]I’m just taking Pat at his word. Who I have known here a long long time and have always liked BTW. I can’t reiterate enough how not personal this is.

But yes Chris, the bible. If the bible says something unequivocally we don’t believe any human council has the authority to do anything further than exposit that truth in a way that is fully faithful to the original intent only. We will never agree on this. Like I said in the other thread. Catholic tradition is itself the best evidence of the folly of allowing man to tamper with God’s Word.

698

[quote]pat wrote:
Simply because somebody doesn’t that something hasn’t happened doesn’t mean it hasn’t.[/quote]

wut

699

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< I will get into the bible just fine…You misunderstand. >>>[/quote]I’m just taking Pat at his word. Who I have known here a long long time and have always liked BTW. I can’t reiterate enough how not personal this is.

But yes Chris, the bible. If the bible says something unequivocally we don’t believe any human council has the authority to do anything further than exposit that truth in a way that is fully faithful to the original intent only. We will never agree on this. Like I said in the other thread. Catholic tradition is itself the best evidence of the folly of allowing man to tamper with God’s Word.
[/quote]

Yet, no proof has been offered up as proof without being shot down. I would say Calvin himself was the best evidence of the folly of allowing man to read the Bible and allowing to privately interpret the Bible. How many people in Geneva did he torture for breaking Mose’s laws. How many people did he throw in jail and excommunicate from his Church because they spoke out against his theology?

The Catholic Church may not always be correct in her actions, and we do have some wayward people in the Church (some turned into Protestant heroes), but that does not mean we tampered with God’s word. It’s strange that not only are we the largest Church, but we have been around the longest and we still hold the four marks of His Church.

How would you know what the Original Intent is, it’s still a very good question to ask, how did the original Christians know how to Worship if not by listening to the Bishops and the ruling of the councils. Obviously Bishops and councils had power to make decisions, they taught the people Jesus’ message back then. They created the Bible, just because they created the Bible doesn’t mean that all of a sudden they have no power or that everything has to be by the Bible, their power comes from God, not the Bible, as how can someone’s power come from something they created, or how can someone’s powers come from a book. It can’t, the power comes from God. We even see the power of the council through the Council of Jerusalem in the Bible.

I never said that something would be incongruous with the Bible, who said this? I said using anything outside the Bible that does not mean that it would not match the Bible.

The fact is that even the Early Church Father St. Augustine named a chapter, “He Who is Mature in Faith, Hope and Love, Needs Scripture No Longer.” And, no Augustine was not Protestant in anyway, he was nothing but Catholic.

700

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Simply because somebody doesn’t that something hasn’t happened doesn’t mean it hasn’t.[/quote]

wut[/quote]

lawl.