Misconceptions of Christianity 2

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
<<< Ahh, Michigan, Valtteri Filppula, how stupid of me to not notice :)[/quote]Very good dude!! #51
I’ll get the rest of your post a little later.

[/quote]

Is that really a camera in the net…never seen one of those before, looks like a slap shot would break that thing.[/quote]Yeah, they’ve been around a while. Scroll down (way down) through this. http://blog.gettyimages.com/tag/nhl/
[/quote]

Awesome wondered how they got those shots. Although one of the cameras looks like a screen. A lot more gadgetry around the net that I suspected there was.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:
<<< That is where Bible study methods help. It teaches you how to read and older document in the proper context.

If you want I can email you some materials that I have.[/quote]The 3 basic steps in my view are:
1-What does it say? That is, the bare language.

2-What does it mean? That is, once it’s determined what it says the next step is determining what it means in the cultural and historical context in which a given piece occurs.

3-How does it work? That is, once it’s been determined what the language says and what it meant to the people it was originally written to, how does it apply to me today.

A very short procedural outline of the historico-exegetical method. A method which when followed yields strikingly similar results for all who competently engage therein.
[/quote]

That is the basic method I tend to use, but I also like to do an observational study first, then followed by the who, what, why, when, and where questions. I also look at the book before I read it and try to find out what the purpose as well as style, and location\situation of the author. It helps give in site to the text. For instance if Paul was in prison when writing a letter I want to know about it. It gives me a point of reference for where he is speaking from. This is expecially true when reading the Old testament. [/quote]
Agreed 100%. You have included all the preliminary foundational analysis which I was remiss in unconsciously assuming which is especially egregious when advising someone without a lot of experience in this area.

A good example would be late last year when I was quite frankly trying to find a way around obeying my local government about something I did not want to do. I spent an afternoon prayerfully studying the first century history of the island of Crete… again (which is pretty fascinating), because I really wanted to figure out a way where Paul’s exhortation to Titus about obeying civil authorities somehow didn’t apply to me here. I lost.

If Paul could say to Titus in Ch.3 "1-Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2-to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. 3-For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. while Titus was on Crete, nothing I could ever come up with would justify my defiance of Redford Township Michigan.

Crete was a zoo in nearly constant civil upheaval with short stretches of stability here and there. If he’s telling those people to obey their government, he was telling me to as well as long as so doing was not disobedience to God. I knew that already because I did that study years ago, but I DID NOT want to take that shed down (long story that I actually posted about here) so I was jist checkin again =[ Time, place and audience made it clear that I was in sin and needed to repent regardless of how much it seemed to suck for the moment.

[/quote]

I hate when that happens to me during a study, sadly it happens a lot. In the end though I am glad it turns out that way. Obeying has a subtle reward that is always worth while.

Granted all we are currently talking about it the basic foundation to give a descent interpretation. Once you get the hang of those then you can start using cross reference
and word studies to really get to the heart of a confusing passage. Hebrews is one of those books that require that. As well as an understanding that the theme of the book is Christ sufficiency.

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
What created the universe(s) then? Where did existence come from?[/quote]

The Big Bang. Evolution.[/quote]

What created the big bang? Where did it come from?

Evolution? That’s way on down the line…

[quote]sen say wrote:
…this is bologna just like Greek and Roman gods…[/quote]

C.S. Lewis one of the great thinkers of our time, had a Doctorate in Greek and Roman mythology. The man knew what a myth was. He stated while being an agnostic that the Bible did not read like a Myth or any other type of book. It read like a book of History. Yes C.S. Lewis became a Christian and wrote many books that brought people to faith. This man was an incredible thinker. Pick up a couple of his books and see whether Christianity is a myth or is it Truth.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Pat, before I go on assuming you are just a typical post modern pagan nominal catholic who thinks some vague form of Christianity is a generally good idea as long as it doesn’t require anything meaningful of you or anybody else, lemme ask you if you believe Adam was a literal first man.


There must be a reason I have lotsa work the last several days. I need a couple hours for responses in this thread.[/quote]

Be careful with assumptions.
I don’t know who the literal first man was or whether his name was Adam or not. The Catholic Church does it not a biblical literal entity. We are Eucharist centered, not scripture centered.

No, under no circumstances do I consider the creation stories in Genesis to be literal accounts of what happened. [/quote]Surmising may have been a better word than assuming, but OK. I wouldn’t know you if you walked up and kissed me in the face on the street so it’s nothing personal in that sense, but what I see from you is a powerless castrated styrofoam gospel that carries no danger of transforming anybody into new creatures in Christ. It’s not just this either.
[/quote]

I am not proclaiming a gospel. I seek truth. I am not trying to transform anybody either. So I am not really understanding what you are getting at. Where do you see this: “powerless castrated styrofoam gospel that carries no danger of transforming anybody into new creatures in Christ. It’s not just this either.”?
Is it because I am not a biblical literalist? Or is it that I am not beating scripture down the throat of those who do not believe in God?

Enlighten me on what you surmise about me so I can address it.
[/quote]

It was very unwise of me to start this now. I’ve been putting it off for weeks. I’m juggling half a dozen things. I do sincerely apologize. I may not be able to respond right away. Let’s start with something general. You are claiming Christ as your own no? If not then we can quit right here and I don’t care what else you say about the bible or salvation or morality or anything else in terms of being representative of Christ or not.
[/quote]

Christ does not belong to me, I belong to him.

Christians are people who acknowledge Christ as the son of God, third person in the Holy Trinity. Further he is the object of their worship and Lord and Savior.

Where the hell did you get that I don’t take the bible seriously? If you think that then you have not read the my posts regarding the scriptures.

I get the impression you are speaking from an evangelical perspective. There is nothing wrong with that, but we are going to disagree with the default condemnation of non-Christians…Am I correct in assuming this is where you doubts on the basis of my faith comes from?

I am not your enemy. But feel free to test me. If I know the answer, I will answer you as honestly as I can.

The facts as listed in the story don’t match the evidence on the Earth itself or in the universe. Ultimately, I don’t know for a positive fact, but the intimation and basic logic indicates that it is allegorical. It does not diminish the purpose of the creation story. It is very important in the context of salvation history. But if you are seeking geological or archeological facts, study geology and archeology.

There are many important lessons and facts contained with in the creation story. God is the creator, and of his creation, there is a special connection between man and himself that is unlike any other connection he has with any other part of his creation. It does not explain why us, over everything else though.

The Bible is a library of divinely inspired books whose purpose vary from book to book. There are many authors of the different texts, but one divine inspiration.

How do you discern what is allegorical in it and what isn’t?
[/quote]

Depends on the book, the intended audience, purpose of the book, etc.
he Bible is not the following, a history book, science book, a math book, or a literature book. It has all those features with in it, but those features are not it’s purpose.

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Where the hell did you get that I don’t take the bible seriously? If you think that then you have not read the my posts regarding the scriptures.

I get the impression you are speaking from an evangelical perspective. There is nothing wrong with that, but we are going to disagree with the default condemnation of non-Christians…Am I correct in assuming this is where you doubts on the basis of my faith comes from?

I am not your enemy. But feel free to test me. If I know the answer, I will answer you as honestly as I can.
[/quote]You don’t owe ME answers or anything else, that’s not the point. We also agree on quite a bit politically and like I say, if you knocked on my front door right now I wouldn’t even know it was you so I have nothing against you as a person.

All that said, having rethought this I am going to take it in an ongoing case by case basis unless you really want me to proceed. I would post an 18 inch piece filled with totally unambiguous, crystal clear (and very evangelical when unpolluted by the folly of man) bible, we could even make it the Douay Rheims in most cases if you want. You would explain it all away with some tortured theological gymnastics and go on maintaining how seriously you take the bible. It’s like the people who claim to love this country, but just happen to not be able to stand the major principles it was founded on.

I started this, so if you demand I go forward I will be honor bound to do so. It’ll take me a day or 2 put together something so unassailable that even the unbelievers, who much of it is actually directed at, will be looking at you with that raised eyebrow, “yeah, what about that?” looks on their faces. Of course they probably won’t agree with it, but they WILL be convinced that agree or not, that’s what it says.

@tirib: Do you happen to know any online-article/s or a list of verses that would do?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Sen Say! How do you do? Heard you went to the beach, which one did you go to?

Well, about the mocking thing. It’s like this, say you or someone you know is a moral relativist. Now when discussing with them, instead of calling it moral relativism, I call it some name, like dirty stoner hippie theory, now I just put a derogatory name on an otherwise non-derogatory named theory.

Now, I do not believe that moral relativism exists, but in an discussion, it would not lend credibility to my side or help the argument at all to call moral relativism the dirty stoner hippie theory. Not only does it confuse the subject at hand, but it’s also argument by word play, which is an ad hominem.

So, even though you do not believe in God, that doesn’t mean you cannot say the word God in argument. I mean if atheist religious studies professor can use the word God of Abraham, then I am sure you can![/quote]

Bethany Beach.

Good points on the atheist religious studies professors.

I didn’t mean to be so ass-hattish on my last posts. I apologize. I respect all you guys in here even if my posts said otherwise. I’ll do a better job.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
C.S. Lewis one of the great thinkers of our time, had a Doctorate in Greek and Roman mythology. The man knew what a myth was. He stated while being an agnostic that the Bible did not read like a Myth or any other type of book. It read like a book of History. Yes C.S. Lewis became a Christian and wrote many books that brought people to faith. This man was an incredible thinker. Pick up a couple of his books and see whether Christianity is a myth or is it Truth.[/quote]

Does anyone know if C.S. Lewis thought the Genesis Creation story was an allegory?

[quote]pat wrote:
The facts as listed in the story don’t match the evidence on the Earth itself or in the universe. [/quote]

I believe Moses is credited as being the author of Genesis. Is that what you believe? I’m curious why would God would inspire Moses to write down an allegory of how He created the universe rather than telling him how he did it. I’m not suggesting God lay out EVERYTHING that He did to create the world, but why would he inspire Moses to write an allegory that imitates a human’s typical work week? See what I’m saying? Work Monday - Saturday and then take a rest.

I don’t want to answer for you, but in a prior post you said that humans 7,000 years ago couldn’t comprehend how God really did create the universe. Why wouldn’t God be able to make them understand? If he’s all powerful it shouldn’t be a problem to explain anything to anyone at any point…

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Where the hell did you get that I don’t take the bible seriously? If you think that then you have not read the my posts regarding the scriptures.

I get the impression you are speaking from an evangelical perspective. There is nothing wrong with that, but we are going to disagree with the default condemnation of non-Christians…Am I correct in assuming this is where you doubts on the basis of my faith comes from?

I am not your enemy. But feel free to test me. If I know the answer, I will answer you as honestly as I can.
[/quote]You don’t owe ME answers or anything else, that’s not the point. We also agree on quite a bit politically and like I say, if you knocked on my front door right now I wouldn’t even know it was you so I have nothing against you as a person.

All that said, having rethought this I am going to take it in an ongoing case by case basis unless you really want me to proceed. I would post an 18 inch piece filled with totally unambiguous, crystal clear (and very evangelical when unpolluted by the folly of man) bible, we could even make it the Douay Rheims in most cases if you want. You would explain it all away with some tortured theological gymnastics and go on maintaining how seriously you take the bible. It’s like the people who claim to love this country, but just happen to not be able to stand the major principles it was founded on.

I started this, so if you demand I go forward I will be honor bound to do so. It’ll take me a day or 2 put together something so unassailable that even the unbelievers, who much of it is actually directed at, will be looking at you with that raised eyebrow, “yeah, what about that?” looks on their faces. Of course they probably won’t agree with it, but they WILL be convinced that agree or not, that’s what it says.

[/quote]

Is it safe to say that you guys are both Christians, but disagree on what exctly Christianity is? What religions do you guys practice?

Thanks.

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Sen Say! How do you do? Heard you went to the beach, which one did you go to?

Well, about the mocking thing. It’s like this, say you or someone you know is a moral relativist. Now when discussing with them, instead of calling it moral relativism, I call it some name, like dirty stoner hippie theory, now I just put a derogatory name on an otherwise non-derogatory named theory.

Now, I do not believe that moral relativism exists, but in an discussion, it would not lend credibility to my side or help the argument at all to call moral relativism the dirty stoner hippie theory. Not only does it confuse the subject at hand, but it’s also argument by word play, which is an ad hominem.

So, even though you do not believe in God, that doesn’t mean you cannot say the word God in argument. I mean if atheist religious studies professor can use the word God of Abraham, then I am sure you can![/quote]

Bethany Beach.

Good points on the atheist religious studies professors.

I didn’t mean to be so ass-hattish on my last posts. I apologize. I respect all you guys in here even if my posts said otherwise. I’ll do a better job.
[/quote]

We love a good discussion here, so as long as you are a total troll we’ll gladly answer questoins and ask our own of you as well. Knowledge without interaction is waste.

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
C.S. Lewis one of the great thinkers of our time, had a Doctorate in Greek and Roman mythology. The man knew what a myth was. He stated while being an agnostic that the Bible did not read like a Myth or any other type of book. It read like a book of History. Yes C.S. Lewis became a Christian and wrote many books that brought people to faith. This man was an incredible thinker. Pick up a couple of his books and see whether Christianity is a myth or is it Truth.[/quote]

Does anyone know if C.S. Lewis thought the Genesis Creation story was an allegory?

little more complicated than that - it seems he was volutionary in process, but divine in source - if that helps . . .

[/quote]

[quote]haney1 wrote:
<<< I hate when that happens to me during a study, sadly it happens a lot. In the end though I am glad it turns out that way. Obeying has a subtle reward that is always worth while. >>>[/quote] In this case I was handling a situation according to my own self perceived brilliance and tactical superiority in direct defiance of a known command that I had simply pushed to the back of my mind. God will let us do that AND let us pay the consequences. I was angry, stressed and losing sleep, lots of it. Weight training was suffering and I was wiped out all the time. When I finally surrendered it felt like a thousand pound bar had been taken off my back though it was humiliating. A serious injustice was committed against my family, but we are commanded to submit and use the situation as a testimony to His grace. I failed to do either and it has been filed as yet another valuable lesson learned. [quote]haney1 wrote:
Granted all we are currently talking about it the basic foundation to give a descent interpretation. Once you get the hang of those then you can start using cross reference
and word studies to really get to the heart of a confusing passage. Hebrews is one of those books that require that. As well as an understanding that the theme of the book is Christ sufficiency.[/quote]Hebrews is one long very extensive hermeneutics extravaganza on the Old Testament. On the other hand the Old Testament is absolutely required for understanding the book of Hebrews. Typology literally explodes into life in that book for instance. Knowing that the OT quotations, which are everywhere, are from the Septuagint is pretty fascinating as well.
Yes, not only sufficiency, but Christ’s all encompassing centricity as well. It’s all been wrapped up in Him since the beginning. Written by a Jew who’d been saved to the uttermost, to other Jews, proclaiming the historically, theologically and spiritually Christocentric, forward looking nature of Judaism from day one. Very complex, but immensely rewarding book.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Where the hell did you get that I don’t take the bible seriously? If you think that then you have not read the my posts regarding the scriptures.

I get the impression you are speaking from an evangelical perspective. There is nothing wrong with that, but we are going to disagree with the default condemnation of non-Christians…Am I correct in assuming this is where you doubts on the basis of my faith comes from?

I am not your enemy. But feel free to test me. If I know the answer, I will answer you as honestly as I can.
[/quote]You don’t owe ME answers or anything else, that’s not the point. We also agree on quite a bit politically and like I say, if you knocked on my front door right now I wouldn’t even know it was you so I have nothing against you as a person.

All that said, having rethought this I am going to take it in an ongoing case by case basis unless you really want me to proceed. I would post an 18 inch piece filled with totally unambiguous, crystal clear (and very evangelical when unpolluted by the folly of man) bible, we could even make it the Douay Rheims in most cases if you want. You would explain it all away with some tortured theological gymnastics and go on maintaining how seriously you take the bible. It’s like the people who claim to love this country, but just happen to not be able to stand the major principles it was founded on.

I started this, so if you demand I go forward I will be honor bound to do so. It’ll take me a day or 2 put together something so unassailable that even the unbelievers, who much of it is actually directed at, will be looking at you with that raised eyebrow, “yeah, what about that?” looks on their faces. Of course they probably won’t agree with it, but they WILL be convinced that agree or not, that’s what it says.

[/quote]

I am not up for a wall of words, but if you have any questions on what I believe and why, feel free to ask. I have nothing to hide, and I do not have to use any sort of tortured logic…
I don’t see much need for a bible quoting pissing contest though. We’d never get through it all, it’s a pretty big book.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Where the hell did you get that I don’t take the bible seriously? If you think that then you have not read the my posts regarding the scriptures.

I get the impression you are speaking from an evangelical perspective. There is nothing wrong with that, but we are going to disagree with the default condemnation of non-Christians…Am I correct in assuming this is where you doubts on the basis of my faith comes from?

I am not your enemy. But feel free to test me. If I know the answer, I will answer you as honestly as I can.
[/quote]You don’t owe ME answers or anything else, that’s not the point. We also agree on quite a bit politically and like I say, if you knocked on my front door right now I wouldn’t even know it was you so I have nothing against you as a person.

All that said, having rethought this I am going to take it in an ongoing case by case basis unless you really want me to proceed. I would post an 18 inch piece filled with totally unambiguous, crystal clear (and very evangelical when unpolluted by the folly of man) bible, we could even make it the Douay Rheims in most cases if you want. You would explain it all away with some tortured theological gymnastics and go on maintaining how seriously you take the bible. It’s like the people who claim to love this country, but just happen to not be able to stand the major principles it was founded on.

I started this, so if you demand I go forward I will be honor bound to do so. It’ll take me a day or 2 put together something so unassailable that even the unbelievers, who much of it is actually directed at, will be looking at you with that raised eyebrow, “yeah, what about that?” looks on their faces. Of course they probably won’t agree with it, but they WILL be convinced that agree or not, that’s what it says.

[/quote]

I am not up for a wall of words, but if you have any questions on what I believe and why, feel free to ask. I have nothing to hide, and I do not have to use any sort of tortured logic…
I don’t see much need for a bible quoting pissing contest though. We’d never get through it all, it’s a pretty big book.[/quote]I rest my case. “Ask me whatever you want. I’ll give you logic, but I’m not gittin into the bible”.

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
C.S. Lewis one of the great thinkers of our time, had a Doctorate in Greek and Roman mythology. The man knew what a myth was. He stated while being an agnostic that the Bible did not read like a Myth or any other type of book. It read like a book of History. Yes C.S. Lewis became a Christian and wrote many books that brought people to faith. This man was an incredible thinker. Pick up a couple of his books and see whether Christianity is a myth or is it Truth.[/quote]

Does anyone know if C.S. Lewis thought the Genesis Creation story was an allegory?

[/quote]

I don’t have a firm answer, but from what I have read he seems to at the very least believe in a very old earth, and possibly leans towards evolution. As I said that is what I have gathered from the few books of his I have read.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:
<<< I hate when that happens to me during a study, sadly it happens a lot. In the end though I am glad it turns out that way. Obeying has a subtle reward that is always worth while. >>>[/quote] In this case I was handling a situation according to my own self perceived brilliance and tactical superiority in direct defiance of a known command that I had simply pushed to the back of my mind. God will let us do that AND let us pay the consequences. I was angry, stressed and losing sleep, lots of it. Weight training was suffering and I was wiped out all the time. When I finally surrendered it felt like a thousand pound bar had been taken off my back though it was humiliating. A serious injustice was committed against my family, but we are commanded to submit and use the situation as a testimony to His grace. I failed to do either and it has been filed as yet another valuable lesson learned. [quote]haney1 wrote:
Granted all we are currently talking about it the basic foundation to give a descent interpretation. Once you get the hang of those then you can start using cross reference
and word studies to really get to the heart of a confusing passage. Hebrews is one of those books that require that. As well as an understanding that the theme of the book is Christ sufficiency.[/quote]Hebrews is one long very extensive hermeneutics extravaganza on the Old Testament. On the other hand the Old Testament is absolutely required for understanding the book of Hebrews. Typology literally explodes into life in that book for instance. Knowing that the OT quotations, which are everywhere, are from the Septuagint is pretty fascinating as well.
Yes, not only sufficiency, but Christ’s all encompassing centricity as well. It’s all been wrapped up in Him since the beginning. Written by a Jew who’d been saved to the uttermost, to other Jews, proclaiming the historically, theologically and spiritually Christocentric, forward looking nature of Judaism from day one. Very complex, but immensely rewarding book.
[/quote]

I can certainly understand your position on it. I know there are many situations in my life that I fight against what I know I am suppossed to do vs. what I want to do.

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
The facts as listed in the story don’t match the evidence on the Earth itself or in the universe. [/quote]

I believe Moses is credited as being the author of Genesis. Is that what you believe? I’m curious why would God would inspire Moses to write down an allegory of how He created the universe rather than telling him how he did it. I’m not suggesting God lay out EVERYTHING that He did to create the world, but why would he inspire Moses to write an allegory that imitates a human’s typical work week? See what I’m saying? Work Monday - Saturday and then take a rest.

I don’t want to answer for you, but in a prior post you said that humans 7,000 years ago couldn’t comprehend how God really did create the universe. Why wouldn’t God be able to make them understand? If he’s all powerful it shouldn’t be a problem to explain anything to anyone at any point…[/quote]

Moses is credited with being it’s author, though the first 11 chapters are very different from the rest of it. So there has been some scholarly discussion about it. But Moses has the credit and I have no issue with that.

As far as why God wasn’t more strait forward with the story of creation or the multitude of things he could have been more strait forward with, I don’t know. He could have made us understand anything, but he chose to make us fend for ourselves in that respect.
What have to understand is that it tells the truth about creation, but does not necessarily burden it with excessive facts. Why? I guess he enjoys watch people who think they are smart discuss it.
For instance let’s take Gen 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth” . Well if you look at theoretical cosmology, the â??heavens’ certainly came before the Earth. The discrepancy is that some folks attribute this beginning as occurring coincidentally with the penning of Genesis, where as scientific inquiries show this to probably have occurred between 13 and 15 billion years ago, but Genesis wasn’t specific about when, only that it was first. Look at Gen 1:2 “The Earth was without form and voidâ?¦” I think you’d find most scientific inquires to agree with this.

So you have truth in there, but it isn’t a chronological fact by fact account. There are after all two creation stories. What man knew about the universe was very little, explaining it in terms we know today, they would just be lost.

I am not up for a line by line discussion of the creation story. If you want to read what I think about it, you can read this for this is my understanding of it…

Now the creation story does more than tell us about creation. It lays out a base structure for us. Work 6 days rest 1. Jesus says in the gospels that the sabbath was created for people, not God. He gave us dominion over all life on Earth and indeed we are top dog, to the point we do not even think of our selves as animals…I could go on and on, but I don’t have time, but I hope I was clear enough.