Misconceptions of Christianity 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
701

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< No, I am not saying that. Of course God wants us to choose to be with him and he provides those opportunities. But one is certainly not on their way to heaven until they choose other wise. Each way is a choice. The one thing you cannot do, is not choose. Ultimately, by you choices, in the opportunities you are given, you make this choice. [/quote]Please extrapolate from this post of yours from the trinity thread if you would. The underlined parts are especially important.
Pat said:[quote]"I don’t. Nor am I to judge whether you will go to hell or not. It’s not my place. I do highly disagree with the tenets of the JW’s and the origin of belief and the revision of scripture and history is highly suspect to me. That’s my problem. But I do not believe JW’s are bad people deserving of any kind of punishment. I believe anyone who truly loves God, and tries to be pleasing to him, will not be condemned. However, neither am I condemned because I do not believe as you do and I know that is what your church teach…That is wrong. I am not worm food just because I am not JW. I am not going to hell either because I am not Baptist, Church of Christ, Church of God, Pentecostal, Methodist, Universal, Jedi Knight, etcÃ?¢?Ã?¦…This type of retarded archaic thinking needs to stop. I consider myself a little bit of everything thought I am Catholic. I am Evangelical, I am Pentecostal, I am Eucharistic… I am not Jehovah’s Witness’ for that would call on me to deny the nature of God, that I will not do. But I do not condemn you for this belief, God is the judge and I believe what’s in your heart is more important than which Bible you thump.[/quote]BTW, there are some truths here, but please explain from the bible because that’s what were talking about, your own translation will be fine, how people who do the best they can to please God are not condemned. For that matter please explain from the bible how anyone can love and please God at all without a deliberate redeeming relationship with Jesus Christ. Bible only please. I’m really not trying to be an ass here, but this is deadly serious.

How come you didn’t bring this up when I wrote it originally?
We’ll go line by lineâ?¦

  1. “I do not believe JW’s are bad people deserving of any kind of punishment. I believe anyone who truly loves God, and tries to be pleasing to him, will not be condemned.”

Not sure what the problem is here? Why should they be punished? What wrong have they done? Do I think their beliefs are incorrect, yes I do. But let us not assume what God does. To many people jump to conclusions about who is or is not condemned and it’s not our place. Who can be saved?

MT 19:25 â?? 26 [25] When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” [26] But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

MK 10:26 -27 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” [27] Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”

Let’s look at something else:
MT 8:10-13 - [10] When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. [11] I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, [12] while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” [13] And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.

Look at what Jesus says in MT 8:11 and 12. Now, a centurion is a Roman legionnaire with 80 soldier under his command, not a Christian, not a Jew, did not proclaim Jesus his Lord and Savior, yet he is astonished by his faith, further proclaiming that there will be many you would not think, be privy to the Kingdom will be there, while others who think they belong will not be allowed in.

Further on judgement. We are warned multiple times not to judge for we think as men, not God.

LK 6:37
"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

This is a conversation best done in person with Bible in hand because I can think of a million scriptures referring to judgment, who is righteous, who belongs to God and why we are not to make that distinction. We don’t know.

What are the greatest commandments? Mt 22:37 â?? 40 [37] And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. [38] This is the great and first commandment. [39] And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [40] On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” ← Who are we to judge if one does this yet does not think like we do, and what fault is it of theirs if they were raised that way.

  1. deny the nature of God.

The nature of God is the Holy Trinity. JW’s believe Jesus is god like, but not God himself. This is wrong of course, but none of us know the true nature of God. If we did, we’d have it all figured out. I believe it was St. Benedict around the time of the Reformation as to what he said to those encouraging him to flip. He told them that if they convert they may go to heaven; if he converts he will surely go to hell. I don’t have the exact quote and do not have the time to look it up, but if they have a good relationship with God as a JW, then who am I to judge. Yet, my relationship with God would faulter if I were to become JW, so I cannot and will not.

  1. But I do not condemn you
    Because, ultimately, I don’t have that right as previously stated.

  2. I believe what’s in your heart is more important than which Bible you thump.

1 Sam 16:7 7But the LORD said to Samuel,(A) “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance,(B) but the LORD looks on the heart.”

And

1 Chr 28:9 And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a(A) whole heart and with a willing mind,(B) for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought.(C) If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

God knows your heart and my heart and the heart of all better than we do. Heaven is full of those who we’d think don’t belong. This theme reoccurs over and over again in scripture.

And lastly, you asked: “. For that matter please explain from the bible how anyone can love and please God at all without a deliberate redeeming relationship with Jesus Christ.”

Well, how do we know Jesus? Many have read the Word and do not know him. Many know his name, and do not know him. What does he say? There are quite a few scriptures that make this reference.

Mt 12:46-50 - [49] And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! [50] For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Those who do the will of God are his “mother and brothers”, each person has his own path designated by God, not man.

This I find currently find one of the most interesting passages in the entire Bible. I not pasting the whole thing but you’ll get the picture:

Mt 25: 37- 40 [37] Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? [38] And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? [39] And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ [40] And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

I find this interesting because what is he saying here? Who is the most Christ like in this passage? Well he says it’s the hungry, the stranger, the prisoner, the sick. If you are kind and charitable, you are ministering to Christ himself. Therefore, if you tend to the least of his people you are taking care of Christ. You do not have to know Jesus by name to have a relationship with him. Tend to the least of his people, and you are tending to him…Either that or he is a liar. Is it better know Jesus’s name, or tend to his needs personally?

702

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< I will get into the bible just fine…You misunderstand. >>>[/quote]I’m just taking Pat at his word. Who I have known here a long long time and have always liked BTW. I can’t reiterate enough how not personal this is.

But yes Chris, the bible. If the bible says something unequivocally we don’t believe any human council has the authority to do anything further than exposit that truth in a way that is fully faithful to the original intent only. We will never agree on this. Like I said in the other thread. Catholic tradition is itself the best evidence of the folly of allowing man to tamper with God’s Word.
[/quote]

Careful here. Catholicism is very scriptural, is based on scripture and is beholden to it. The basic tenants have been there since the apostles themselves where running the show. It is also the Church that Jesus established by his own authority… Show me an example of Catholic tradition that is said " folly of allowing man to tamper with God’s Word."

703

Pat you’re an honorable man, I’ll give ya that. You are under no obligation to answer me, but you did and this post clearly took some time. Let me also emphatically say that I take no prurient glee in these kinds of exchanges. So help me, I really really don’t. You or anybody else can think me self righteous or plasticly pious, but He was maddeningly faithful even when I TRIED to get Him to forsake me. I’ve been asked (not by you) where was I when the unbelievers were attacking the gospel? They don’t claim Christ and do nothing to misrepresent Him or His truth, but I am commanded as are all Christians to contend for and defend His truth by judging, yes judging those claiming to be members of the body of Christ by the clear precepts of His word.

You are correct that this is very tough to do on an Internet forum. I will try to be as concise as humanly possible, but a proper response will take some time and (by the grace and providence of almighty God) you have delivered yourself into my humble hands. I say this with no smile on my face. What you have presented here may be catholic, but it sure ain’t biblical, though it may not be either. My response will at least begin answering your last question as well so one thing at a time.

704

I post this so as he already said it and said it good.

705

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I post this so as he already said it and said it good.[/quote]I’m honestly not sure why you posted this, but with one simple clarification which he seemed to make himself a bit later, I agree with the young friar here 100%. Seriously. He is exactly right. Though I’m pretty sure he would apply the principles he quite accurately set forth here a bit differently than I would the principles themselves are very well stated and pretty much what I’ve been saying for months now. One of those posts of mine was to you which you agreed with.

This whole modern obsession with tolerance above all and being non judgmental is just that. A modern obsession, and a satanic deception as this man says. It is a secular psycho-babbling humanistic tenet of cockamamie contemporary “compassion” and an abuse of scripture just as he also says. What pray tell is a call upon sinners to repentance if it’s not a judgment that they are sinful, lost and in need of a savior? Not by our judgment, God forbid, but by His that we (you’ll disagree here) are commanded to preach in our lives and testimonies.

706

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Pat you’re an honorable man, I’ll give ya that. You are under no obligation to answer me, but you did and this post clearly took some time. Let me also emphatically say that I take no prurient glee in these kinds of exchanges. So help me, I really really don’t. You or anybody else can think me self righteous or plasticly pious, but He was maddeningly faithful even when I TRIED to get Him to forsake me. I’ve been asked (not by you) where was I when the unbelievers were attacking the gospel? They don’t claim Christ and do nothing to misrepresent Him or His truth, but I am commanded as are all Christians to contend for and defend His truth by judging, yes judging those claiming to be members of the body of Christ by the clear precepts of His word.

You are correct that this is very tough to do on an Internet forum. I will try to be as concise as humanly possible, but a proper response will take some time and (by the grace and providence of almighty God) you have delivered yourself into my humble hands. I say this with no smile on my face. What you have presented here may be catholic, but it sure ain’t biblical, though it may not be either. My response will at least begin answering your last question as well so one thing at a time.[/quote]

Judging actions and proclaimed beliefs is one thing, determining one should go to hell is another matter all together. That is a serious proclamation and one you make with out due knowledge and wisdom. Jesus is the judge, not us. We have no dominion over heaven and hell therefore we cannot condemn nor postulate on who should go there. Further, in scripture the theme of who belongs to heaven ain’t what you think, is repeated over and over.

Would you execute a JW for their beliefs? If not, how much worse is it to determine they belong in hell?
Muslims act in this way, they are not only convinced we are going to hell, but they’re determined to shorten the trip there. Do we want to be like them? I sure as hell don’t

We are all flawed in our beliefs. None of us follow the gospels like we should and we all sin. Who deserves heaven, really?

The scriptures on judging are not modern precepts they are in the gospels, epistles, letters, etc. Look what Jesus himself said about it. Don’t take my word.

707

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I post this so as he already said it and said it good.[/quote]I’m honestly not sure why you posted this, but with one simple clarification which he seemed to make himself a bit later, I agree with the young friar here 100%. Seriously. He is exactly right. Though I’m pretty sure he would apply the principles he quite accurately set forth here a bit differently than I would the principles themselves are very well stated and pretty much what I’ve been saying for months now. One of those posts of mine was to you which you agreed with.

This whole modern obsession with tolerance above all and being non judgmental is just that. A modern obsession, and a satanic deception as this man says. It is a secular psycho-babbling humanistic tenet of cockamamie contemporary “compassion” and an abuse of scripture just as he also says. What pray tell is a call upon sinners to repentance if it’s not a judgment that they are sinful, lost and in need of a savior? Not by our judgment, God forbid, but by His that we (you’ll disagree here) are commanded to preach in our lives and testimonies.[/quote]

I posted this because I wanted to say something on the judgment thing above, but my brain was fried from being out in the sun all day so I was watching some homilies and posted this up as I agreed with it.

I’m not sure what you mean about the disagreeing thing, it might be because of the friend brain thing.

708

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Judging actions and proclaimed beliefs is one thing, determining one should go to hell is another matter all together. That is a serious proclamation and one you make with out due knowledge and wisdom. Jesus is the judge, not us. We have no dominion over heaven and hell therefore we cannot condemn nor postulate on who should go there. Further, in scripture the theme of who belongs to heaven ain’t what you think, is repeated over and over.

Would you execute a JW for their beliefs? If not, how much worse is it to determine they belong in hell?
Muslims act in this way, they are not only convinced we are going to hell, but they’re determined to shorten the trip there. Do we want to be like them? I sure as hell don’t

We are all flawed in our beliefs. None of us follow the gospels like we should and we all sin. Who deserves heaven, really? [/quote]I will address all of this, but it will take me a little time. I was gonna say I don’t know how you could have misunderstood me this badly, but it is entirely possible that I am not as skilled a communicator as I thought. Actually, to hold you over, I agree with the video Chris posted. Like REALLY agree. If you listen attentively to his careful but short homily, (it’s a sermon, come on =] ) from my reading of the bible he gets it right.

709

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I post this so as he already said it and said it good.[/quote]I’m honestly not sure why you posted this, but with one simple clarification which he seemed to make himself a bit later, I agree with the young friar here 100%. Seriously. He is exactly right. Though I’m pretty sure he would apply the principles he quite accurately set forth here a bit differently than I would the principles themselves are very well stated and pretty much what I’ve been saying for months now. One of those posts of mine was to you which you agreed with.

This whole modern obsession with tolerance above all and being non judgmental is just that. A modern obsession, and a satanic deception as this man says. It is a secular psycho-babbling humanistic tenet of cockamamie contemporary “compassion” and an abuse of scripture just as he also says. What pray tell is a call upon sinners to repentance if it’s not a judgment that they are sinful, lost and in need of a savior? Not by our judgment, God forbid, but by His that we (you’ll disagree here) are commanded to preach in our lives and testimonies.[/quote]

I posted this because I wanted to say something on the judgment thing above, but my brain was fried from being out in the sun all day so I was watching some homilies and posted this up as I agreed with it.

I’m not sure what you mean about the disagreeing thing, it might be because of the friend brain thing.[/quote]Ok, then we agree (I think). I couldn’t tell if you were trying to admonish me, admonish Pat or were just making a general statement about judgment. I will have a a piece as soon as I can that our friend Friar Ignatius would be proud of. Maybe I’ll send it to him. Shouldn’t be too hard to track him down, oh look here he is now ( http://airmaria.com/category/speakers/fr-ignatius-manfredonia/ ) The thing you’ll disagree with is that “we”, the laity, are called to testify to the life transforming saving grace of the risen Christ by proclamation and our every word, thought and deed.

710

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I post this so as he already said it and said it good.[/quote]I’m honestly not sure why you posted this, but with one simple clarification which he seemed to make himself a bit later, I agree with the young friar here 100%. Seriously. He is exactly right. Though I’m pretty sure he would apply the principles he quite accurately set forth here a bit differently than I would the principles themselves are very well stated and pretty much what I’ve been saying for months now. One of those posts of mine was to you which you agreed with.

This whole modern obsession with tolerance above all and being non judgmental is just that. A modern obsession, and a satanic deception as this man says. It is a secular psycho-babbling humanistic tenet of cockamamie contemporary “compassion” and an abuse of scripture just as he also says. What pray tell is a call upon sinners to repentance if it’s not a judgment that they are sinful, lost and in need of a savior? Not by our judgment, God forbid, but by His that we (you’ll disagree here) are commanded to preach in our lives and testimonies.[/quote]

I posted this because I wanted to say something on the judgment thing above, but my brain was fried from being out in the sun all day so I was watching some homilies and posted this up as I agreed with it.

I’m not sure what you mean about the disagreeing thing, it might be because of the friend brain thing.[/quote]Ok, then we agree (I think). I couldn’t tell if you were trying to admonish me, admonish Pat or were just making a general statement about judgment. I will have a a piece as soon as I can that our friend Friar Ignatius would be proud of. Maybe I’ll send it to him. Shouldn’t be too hard to track him down, oh look here he is now ( http://airmaria.com/category/speakers/fr-ignatius-manfredonia/ ) The thing you’ll disagree with is that “we”, the laity, are called to testify to the life transforming saving grace of the risen Christ by proclamation and our every word, thought and deed.
[/quote]

We, laity of the Catholic Church (as well as you since you receive these callings from Baptism), are all called to be Kings, Priests, and Prophets. “Preach the gospel at all times; when necessary, use words” which is commonly attributed to St. Francis of Assisi.

711

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Judging actions and proclaimed beliefs is one thing, determining one should go to hell is another matter all together. That is a serious proclamation and one you make with out due knowledge and wisdom. Jesus is the judge, not us. We have no dominion over heaven and hell therefore we cannot condemn nor postulate on who should go there. Further, in scripture the theme of who belongs to heaven ain’t what you think, is repeated over and over.

Would you execute a JW for their beliefs? If not, how much worse is it to determine they belong in hell?
Muslims act in this way, they are not only convinced we are going to hell, but they’re determined to shorten the trip there. Do we want to be like them? I sure as hell don’t

We are all flawed in our beliefs. None of us follow the gospels like we should and we all sin. Who deserves heaven, really? [/quote]I will address all of this, but it will take me a little time. I was gonna say I don’t know how you could have misunderstood me this badly, but it is entirely possible that I am not as skilled a communicator as I thought. Actually, to hold you over, I agree with the video Chris posted. Like REALLY agree. If you listen attentively to his careful but short homily, (it’s a sermon, come on =] ) from my reading of the bible he gets it right.
[/quote]

I wish I could listen, but my headphones took a shit. So I’ll have to at home except I avoid computers at home.

I am sorry if I misunderstood, but I thought we were discussing who goes to hell and my position is that is not my place to judge.

712

[quote]pat wrote:
I thought we were discussing who goes to hell and my position is that is not my place to judge.
[/quote]

I will agree with your statement, and this post is in no way to put words into Tiribs mouth.

We know that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes unto the father except through Him. Jesus stated this. If you do not beleive that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God, and was crucified dead and barried, rose on the third day and was witnessed to be alive. Then ascended into heaven and seated at the right hand of the father, and one day will return. You also have to beleive that Jesus was fully man and fully God. If you do not beleive these things, then how can you go to heaven? If Jesus is the only way, truth and life how can you go to heaven and not beleive in him? The scriptures give us a map and we can see that some people will not go to heaven buy comparing them to what the Bible says. There are many people that will speak with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, but do not beleive it in their heart. These are the ones you have to watch out for, because their master is Satan. They will say mostly the correct things, but it will be the details that will show who they really follow. I am missing a lot of things, but I hope you see where I am coming from. I would love to beleive that everyone will go to heaven, but the Bible is very clear that not all will inherit the kingdom of heaven. Is it for me to decide who goes, no, but God has given us a glimpse of who will through his Son Jesus Christ.

713

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< We, laity of the Catholic Church (as well as you since you receive these callings from Baptism), are all called to be Kings, Priests, and Prophets. “Preach the gospel at all times; when necessary, use words” which is commonly attributed to St. Francis of Assisi.[/quote]Well that’s fabulous and we seem to agree again. I am actually aware of that quotation that is indeed attributed to Francis of Assisi. When a person says Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior then what they are saying is that everything I think, everything I do and everything I say (or type) is before His holy gaze and represents Him in the sight of a lost and unbelieving world.

714

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I thought we were discussing who goes to hell and my position is that is not my place to judge.
[/quote]

I will agree with your statement, and this post is in no way to put words into Tiribs mouth.

We know that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes unto the father except through Him. Jesus stated this. If you do not beleive that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God, and was crucified dead and barried, rose on the third day and was witnessed to be alive. Then ascended into heaven and seated at the right hand of the father, and one day will return. You also have to beleive that Jesus was fully man and fully God. If you do not beleive these things, then how can you go to heaven? If Jesus is the only way, truth and life how can you go to heaven and not beleive in him? The scriptures give us a map and we can see that some people will not go to heaven buy comparing them to what the Bible says. There are many people that will speak with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, but do not beleive it in their heart. These are the ones you have to watch out for, because their master is Satan. They will say mostly the correct things, but it will be the details that will show who they really follow. I am missing a lot of things, but I hope you see where I am coming from. I would love to beleive that everyone will go to heaven, but the Bible is very clear that not all will inherit the kingdom of heaven. Is it for me to decide who goes, no, but God has given us a glimpse of who will through his Son Jesus Christ.[/quote]Indeed. It’s not my place to judge either LOL! and thanks be to God that it isn’t. However, The bible IS God’s judgment and when He through it declares a standard, either in doctrine or practice and then tells us to hold first ourselves and then others claiming His name to it, that is His judgment not mine. If He left it up to me apart from His Word everybody would somehow go to heaven. I’m not one of these holier than thou lightning bolt throwing pharisees that delights in the damnation of others. (Not that anybody’s necessarily saying that) I’m still workin on that post for Pat.

715

Praise be Jesus Christ.

If you remember that part in the Gospel, where the Devil tempts our Lord in the desert. He sights sacred scripture, misusing the word of God to deceives the Son of God. The Devil today is still capable of using this same technique. He sites the Word of God in order to deceive the sons of God. It seems the favorite scripture passage that the Devil uses today is from St. Matthew’s Gospel Chapter 7, Verse 1. “Do not judge, that you may not be judged.”

How often do we here it sited today? “Do not judge, lest thou be judged.” It goes right along with this that the favorite virtue of the Devil is non-judgementalism. An imprudent tolerance, and believe me many Christians have been fooled by this. All sorts of qualms of conscience of being non-judgmental, but they’ll have not problem missing Mass on Sunday.

So, what is the proper understanding of the Lord’s words, “Do not judge, that you may not be judged.” Our Lord here, is refering to rash judgements. To come to negative conclusions about someone without any reasonable foundation. He is talking about making judgements motivated by envy or detraction, or to judge a persons intentions with no clear evidence. Or, to judge the subjective nature of someone’s soul. Which is hidden to us. We can’t see that. Our Lord is not talking about making judgements regarding things that are evident to us. Like someone opening discending from the Church’s teachings on contraception. Well that is heresy. That is clear.

That is evident to us and we should point it out. We can and must make these kinds of judgements and we should always interpret our neighbors actions in the most favorable light. At the same time we must remember that saintliness is not silliness.

St. Jerome in regard to this scripture passage, Christ does not altogether to forbid judgin but directs us how to judge. The thing that does not regard us, we should not undertake to judge. Things that do not involve us we should mind our own business. However, barefaced vice and notorious sinners should be condemned and repremanded by all. Another popular quote that we here today, though it is not from scripture is very much also used by the Devil. To promote is false virtue of tolerance, love the sinner, but hate the sin. While there is a certain true to this we must at the same time we must recognize the limits of this saying. We cannot go so far as remove the personal responsiblity of the sin from the sinner. Crimes are not sent to jail, but criminals are. God does not condemn sin hell, but does condemn sinners. In a very real way, sins are not interirely disctinc from the person. Personal sins have a real effect on the person. A man that steals renders himself a thieve. A woman that commits adultery makes herself an adulter.

That is not all of it, but I have to go take care of something at the moment

716

Don’t be slackin on us now, where’s the rest? =]

717

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I thought we were discussing who goes to hell and my position is that is not my place to judge.
[/quote]

I will agree with your statement, and this post is in no way to put words into Tiribs mouth.

We know that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes unto the father except through Him. Jesus stated this. If you do not beleive that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God, and was crucified dead and barried, rose on the third day and was witnessed to be alive. Then ascended into heaven and seated at the right hand of the father, and one day will return. You also have to beleive that Jesus was fully man and fully God. If you do not beleive these things, then how can you go to heaven? If Jesus is the only way, truth and life how can you go to heaven and not beleive in him? The scriptures give us a map and we can see that some people will not go to heaven buy comparing them to what the Bible says. There are many people that will speak with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, but do not beleive it in their heart. These are the ones you have to watch out for, because their master is Satan. They will say mostly the correct things, but it will be the details that will show who they really follow. I am missing a lot of things, but I hope you see where I am coming from. I would love to beleive that everyone will go to heaven, but the Bible is very clear that not all will inherit the kingdom of heaven. Is it for me to decide who goes, no, but God has given us a glimpse of who will through his Son Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Correct, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes unto the father except through Him. Now, does this mean we have to know his name? Romans Chapter 2, discussed this very thing.
Romans 2:14 in particular reads this way:

[14 ] For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15 ] They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them [16 ] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

“God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” ← I think this is a revelation on the matter of who goes where, how and why despite which religious discipline you practice.

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I just got done with another hour on a response for you Pat. I keep rethinking how to lay everything out and also whether I should take one point at time in separate posts =[

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I just got done with another hour on a response for you Pat. I keep rethinking how to lay everything out and also whether I should take one point at time in separate posts =[

[/quote]

Uh oh, another hour!? Yeah perhaps you ought to break that up a bit…I don’t know that I could stand it all in one single post…Eeee-gad.

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[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I thought we were discussing who goes to hell and my position is that is not my place to judge.
[/quote]

I will agree with your statement, and this post is in no way to put words into Tiribs mouth.

We know that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes unto the father except through Him. Jesus stated this. If you do not beleive that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God, and was crucified dead and barried, rose on the third day and was witnessed to be alive. Then ascended into heaven and seated at the right hand of the father, and one day will return. You also have to beleive that Jesus was fully man and fully God. If you do not beleive these things, then how can you go to heaven? If Jesus is the only way, truth and life how can you go to heaven and not beleive in him? The scriptures give us a map and we can see that some people will not go to heaven buy comparing them to what the Bible says. There are many people that will speak with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, but do not beleive it in their heart. These are the ones you have to watch out for, because their master is Satan. They will say mostly the correct things, but it will be the details that will show who they really follow. I am missing a lot of things, but I hope you see where I am coming from. I would love to beleive that everyone will go to heaven, but the Bible is very clear that not all will inherit the kingdom of heaven. Is it for me to decide who goes, no, but God has given us a glimpse of who will through his Son Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Correct, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes unto the father except through Him. Now, does this mean we have to know his name? Romans Chapter 2, discussed this very thing.
Romans 2:14 in particular reads this way:

[14 ] For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15 ] They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them [16 ] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

“God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” ← I think this is a revelation on the matter of who goes where, how and why despite which religious discipline you practice.[/quote]

So you are saying if someone thinks that Buddah is Jesus Christ, but only know him as Buddah they will go to heaven? Replace Buddah with any other religious figure and the same question stands.