Misconceptions of Christianity 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]haney1 wrote:
<<< That is where Bible study methods help. It teaches you how to read and older document in the proper context.

If you want I can email you some materials that I have.[/quote]The 3 basic steps in my view are:
1-What does it say? That is, the bare language.

2-What does it mean? That is, once it’s determined what it says the next step is determining what it means in the cultural and historical context in which a given piece occurs.

3-How does it work? That is, once it’s been determined what the language says and what it meant to the people it was originally written to, how does it apply to me today.

A very short procedural outline of the historico-exegetical method. A method which when followed yields strikingly similar results for all who competently engage therein.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Tiribulus’ post raised some questions I’d like to ask, I present one of them.
Why does God want to be worshiped? Isn’t that a bit odd and childlike? >>>[/quote]First, what is worship? I am not going to get in to the various words in the old and new testaments translated “worship” or other related terms. For our purposes it is sufficient that the overall definition of “worship” is roughly that firmly held attitude of self abasing reverential adoration that results in willing obedience to the commands and practices prescribed by the God being worshiped.

Let’s be clear from the outset that God does not NEED to be worshiped. (indeed he needs nothing) Acts 17:25-25 24-“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25-nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;”

Jesus Himself confirms in John 4:23-24 that God does in fact though value worship: “But the hour is coming, and now is, when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

What does God want from us in worship? Ultimately? Intimacy is the answer. Again, in the 5th of Ephesians 22-33 ( Ephesians 5:1 NASB: Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; ) Paul describes the beautiful union of a godly man and wife in marriage and after summing it up with a quote from 2nd of Genesis about the 2 becoming one flesh he makes the astonishing statement that he has been speaking of Christ and His church.

In 1 Corinthians 6:13-20 ( 1 Corinthians 6 NASB 1995 ) Paul is discussing the woes of sexual immorality and all the ways it defiles a person and in the midst of this he declares that “he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him”. The short answer is that God desires worship from His bride because He loves her. Worship involves varied individual acts and practices. Prayer, fellowship with other Christians, financial giving, singing and just plain “being still and knowing that He is God”.(Psalm 46:10) among others.

When contrasted with God’s awesome and terrible yet entirely just judgment of sin which His church bride has been saved from so He could marry her? This is all the more unthinkably sweet.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< Anyway, has this seemingly childish demand from God ever bothered you and if it has, have you found any answers?[/quote]Once you are in fact “one spirit with Him” and have matured through, well, worship, this question becomes nearly blasphemous to even contemplate though from your perspective I do understand asking it. I learned the hard way the folly of being arrogant enough to become bothered by what I didn’t understand about God and His providence in my life. Childish? Not a chance my friend and He doesn’t have to demand worship from His bride. It is her greatest joy honor and satisfaction.

Fanny Crosby, the great American hymn writer of the 19th century who was blind from early childhood was once asked if she was ever embittered about not ever having eyesight. She replied some thing like “You don’t understand. The first thing I will ever see is His face”. That is worship.
[/quote]

Thank you for having taken the time to answer my question. It satisfied my curiosity and I think it is a plausible answer when you believe, even though my personal view is that worship is more important for the circle of believers as a group than it ever is to God.
You said a question like this is nearly blasphemous and that is another thing that doesn’t compute in my mind. How can one blaspheme God in the first place? How on earth can anything I or you do ever be blasphemous? Couldn’t the concept of blasphemy too be something that is mainly and foremostly important for the community and not God? … Well, obviously not when the Bible is considered to be Gods word, even though it doesn’t tell why this is such an important issue for God, does it? And who is Valtteri?

Over and out,
Kari

E: edited for clarity

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[quote]BackInAction wrote:
If God did take the rib out of Adam, why are we not missing the rib now a days?

If the Biblical stories are true, this has to be true as well.[/quote]

No. This does not have to be true…if your father had lost a limb would you have been born without a limb?

The fact that ribs re-generate is not proof that a man that lives in the sky came down to earth caused the man to fall into a deep sleep and while he was sleeping he took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the plaee with flesh then made a woman from the rib.

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[quote]pat wrote:

The creation story is allegorical. If you understood the audience it was written for and the time it was written, it makes a whole lot more sense. Trying to express the space-time continuum, singularities, the higgs-boson particles would more than likely leave a bunch of uneducated sheep herders wildly confused and likely uninterested. There are important lessons with in the creation story that are far more important than particulars of creation. We are talking about a book written 7000 years ago. No society had terribly advanced science at that time.[/quote]

How do you know the creation story is allegorical?

Who do you believe wrote the Bible?

How do you discern what is allegorical in it and what isn’t?

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[quote]BackInAction wrote:

The reason they probably say Sky Wizard is because it’s mocking. But in all truthfulness, the name doesn’t matter as much as the idea.[/quote]

I don’t say it to mock…I don’t say God, because it’s ridiculous…there’s no such thing as Gods…there’s no one all-powerful God…why would I call something a name that doesn’t exist?

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[quote]pat wrote:
In the end it won’t matter a lick.[/quote]

But it matters today and now.

By accepting these myths and fairy tales you are allowing maniacs to kill other people. Both Christains and Muslims and Jews are all killing or being killed right now in the name of a made up deity. Your version of Christianity is a loving god that forgives all sins…but that ain’t the god in the bible and that ain’t the god a great majority of christians believe in…and until the majority of people say, you know what…this is bologna just like Greek and Roman gods, we will not be able to say Islam is fucked up not because their religion is wrong, but because if you take religion our of the equation there is no way anyone could defend their actions.

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[quote]pat wrote:

In a proper bible, each book has a prologue that describes what the book is about, who the author is, what the purpose of the book is, and who the audience is. There are facts in the bible, but it is not a collection of facts. The books are historical, but they are not history books. It is a multi faceted library of books each with its own purpose and intent. Know this and you’ll know what to take literally what is parabolic.[/quote]

Didn’t see this when I posted earlier asking you this. got it.

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[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
<<< Thank you for having taken the time to answer my question. It satisfied my curiosity and I think it is a plausible answer when you believe, even though my personal view is that worship is more important for the circle of believers as a group than it ever is to God. >>>[/quote]There is actually a very large though incomplete element of truth to this. Like He says. He does not need worship. We however do need to worship Him. First because He commands it, though we very willingly comply and second, it strengthens us in Him. As I opened my eyes a little while ago I prayed that God would subdue my rebellious heart and will that I may proceed in this day in manner pleasing in His sight. She was still in bed this morning when I woke up which made it even sweeter, but I also pray every morning that He will enable me to more perfectly love this woman as He loved me and gave Himself for me (Ephesians. 5 from above) Neither of those is a natural attitude or act for a fallen sinful man. It’s impossible for me to prove to you, but I am more sure that He hears than I m you are reading this. All of His commands are promises.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
You said a question like this is nearly blasphemous and that is another thing that doesn’t compute in my mind. How can one blaspheme God in the first place? How on earth can anything I or you do ever be blasphemous? Couldn’t the concept of blasphemy too be something that is mainly and foremostly important for the community and not God? Well, obviously not when the Bible is considered to be Gods word, even though it doesn’t tell why this is such an important issue for God, does it?[/quote]<<< Ok, there are also several Hebrew and Greek words and phrases translated as or relating to “blasphemy” which I also won’t get into either. What matters here is that generally, “blasphemy” is an attitude and or action of denigration, insult or disrespect toward God. This the God of all creation regards with absolutely mortal import. It was punishable by death under the law and actually still is though it is now the second death, spiritual death, which though presently afflicting all unbelievers is to be permanently meted out at the judgment.

Again, this will probably sound corny and trite to you, but once He embraces you and you know Him? The significance of either worship or blasphemy pretty much take care of themselves through the living Word in your heart testifying to the written Word in the bible. Every superlative human adjective falls tearfully short of containing His exalted majesty. I should however hasten to add that God has made us curious and given His children a desire to know Him as fully as possible so it is NOT instantly sin to inquire into His nature. Christians must take care though that godly curiosity not be allowed to induce arrogant presumptuous probing.

It is perfectly natural (and promised) for sinners to assume God is like them if He exists at all. Even many Christians inadvertently hold inadequate views of God. We tend to see Him as the highest on our chart. To oversimplify, people will view maybe the mineral world as lowest, plant life as higher, then the animal world scaling up from bacteria to complex mammals, with man being very much higher still and God, praise His holy name as being highest of all. NO NO NO!!! God as eternal creator is the singular occupant of that class which is wholly independent and infinitely above all else. All throughout biblical history God gives as the reason for anything He says and or does some version of simply “I am the Lord your God”. That’s more than enough for those that know Him.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:And who is Valtteri?
Over and out,
Kari
E: edited for clarity[/quote] I happen to know that Valtteri is a popular Finnish name so I was taking a stab at being lighthearted and friendly by calling you a proper name I thought you would be familiar with. Apparently it didn’t work =]

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Again, this will probably sound corny and trite to you, but once He embraces you and you know Him? The significance of either worship or blasphemy pretty much take care of themselves through the living Word in your heart testifying to the written Word in the bible. Every superlative human adjective falls tearfully short of containing His exalted majesty. I should however hasten to add that God has made us curious and given His children a desire to know Him as fully as possible so it is NOT instantly sin to inquire into His nature. Christians must take care though that godly curiosity not be allowed to induce arrogant presumptuous probing.[/quote]

No, it doesn’t sound corny or trite, in an analogous way I can say that ideas like predestination and free will loose their significance once I accept my inability to truly grasp the meaning behind these concepts. As an analogy, that is. God hasn’t embraced me and I don’t know him, not in the sense you mean it anyway.

That’s why I wonder how I could ever insult God in any way, unless I’m a living and walking insult in myself in God’s eyes :wink: and that is what I probably am when I don’t recognize the Bible as Gods word.
Goodness me, how many I-words :o

[quote] I happen to know that Valtteri is a popular Finnish name so I was taking a stab at being lighthearted and friendly by calling you a proper name I thought you would be familiar with. Apparently it didn’t work =]
[/quote]

Ahh, Michigan, Valtteri Filppula, how stupid of me to not notice :slight_smile:

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[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
<<< Ahh, Michigan, Valtteri Filppula, how stupid of me to not notice :)[/quote]Very good dude!! #51
I’ll get the rest of your post a little later.

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[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Again, this will probably sound corny and trite to you, but once He embraces you and you know Him? The significance of either worship or blasphemy pretty much take care of themselves through the living Word in your heart testifying to the written Word in the bible. Every superlative human adjective falls tearfully short of containing His exalted majesty. I should however hasten to add that God has made us curious and given His children a desire to know Him as fully as possible so it is NOT instantly sin to inquire into His nature. Christians must take care though that godly curiosity not be allowed to induce arrogant presumptuous probing.[/quote] No, it doesn’t sound corny or trite, in an analogous way I can say that ideas like predestination and free will loose their significance once I accept my inability to truly grasp the meaning behind these concepts. As an analogy, that is. God hasn’t embraced me and I don’t know him, not in the sense you mean it anyway.[/quote] If I am understanding this correctly you are saying that if you were to concede the ultimate inexplicableness of those concepts they would at that point lose their usefulness to you? That being the somewhat analogous mirror opposite of my position which is that their significance can only truly be known after one has surrendered to the God who declares them? (all in the abstract from your perspective)

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

That’s why I wonder how I could ever insult God in any way, unless I’m a living and walking insult in myself in God’s eyes :wink: and that is what I probably am when I don’t recognize the Bible as Gods word.
Goodness me, how many I-words :o [/quote]I have to say. I almost feel bad here telling you that you are pretty much correct. Do understand that this goes for everybody ever born if left to themselves without Christ, including me. However, while accepting the bible as God’s word is essential, it’s actually the rejection of the need for redemption from sin through the shed blood and resurrected life of Jesus Christ that qualifies someone as a “living and walking insult”.

Jesus Himself said people can call Him Lord, but live a life of disobedience and never be known by Him (Matthew 7:22ff) to say nothing of people committing overt acts of blasphemy. Both are just as damned. It’s those who are truly born again (John 3) and are transformed into new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15) in the image of the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15) Jesus Christ and whose lives are subsequently led by the Spirit who are sons of God (Romans 8:14).

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:
<<< That is where Bible study methods help. It teaches you how to read and older document in the proper context.

If you want I can email you some materials that I have.[/quote]The 3 basic steps in my view are:
1-What does it say? That is, the bare language.

2-What does it mean? That is, once it’s determined what it says the next step is determining what it means in the cultural and historical context in which a given piece occurs.

3-How does it work? That is, once it’s been determined what the language says and what it meant to the people it was originally written to, how does it apply to me today.

A very short procedural outline of the historico-exegetical method. A method which when followed yields strikingly similar results for all who competently engage therein.
[/quote]

That is the basic method I tend to use, but I also like to do an observational study first, then followed by the who, what, why, when, and where questions. I also look at the book before I read it and try to find out what the purpose as well as style, and location\situation of the author. It helps give in site to the text. For instance if Paul was in prison when writing a letter I want to know about it. It gives me a point of reference for where he is speaking from. This is expecially true when reading the Old testament.

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[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:
<<< That is where Bible study methods help. It teaches you how to read and older document in the proper context.

If you want I can email you some materials that I have.[/quote]The 3 basic steps in my view are:
1-What does it say? That is, the bare language.

2-What does it mean? That is, once it’s determined what it says the next step is determining what it means in the cultural and historical context in which a given piece occurs.

3-How does it work? That is, once it’s been determined what the language says and what it meant to the people it was originally written to, how does it apply to me today.

A very short procedural outline of the historico-exegetical method. A method which when followed yields strikingly similar results for all who competently engage therein.
[/quote]

That is the basic method I tend to use, but I also like to do an observational study first, then followed by the who, what, why, when, and where questions. I also look at the book before I read it and try to find out what the purpose as well as style, and location\situation of the author. It helps give in site to the text. For instance if Paul was in prison when writing a letter I want to know about it. It gives me a point of reference for where he is speaking from. This is expecially true when reading the Old testament. [/quote]
Agreed 100%. You have included all the preliminary foundational analysis which I was remiss in unconsciously assuming which is especially egregious when advising someone without a lot of experience in this area.

A good example would be late last year when I was quite frankly trying to find a way around obeying my local government about something I did not want to do. I spent an afternoon prayerfully studying the first century history of the island of Crete… again (which is pretty fascinating), because I really wanted to figure out a way where Paul’s exhortation to Titus about obeying civil authorities somehow didn’t apply to me here. I lost.

If Paul could say to Titus in Ch.3 "1-Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2-to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. 3-For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. while Titus was on Crete, nothing I could ever come up with would justify my defiance of Redford Township Michigan.

Crete was a zoo in nearly constant civil upheaval with short stretches of stability here and there. If he’s telling those people to obey their government, he was telling me to as well as long as so doing was not disobedience to God. I knew that already because I did that study years ago, but I DID NOT want to take that shed down (long story that I actually posted about here) so I was jist checkin again =[ Time, place and audience made it clear that I was in sin and needed to repent regardless of how much it seemed to suck for the moment.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
If I am understanding this correctly you are saying that if you were to concede the ultimate inexplicableness of those concepts they would at that point lose their usefulness to you? That being the somewhat analogous mirror opposite of my position which is that their significance can only truly be known after one has surrendered to the God who declares them? (all in the abstract from your perspective)
[/quote]

The main point was, that what you said didn’t sound corny or trite, the rest is just an attempt to explain why. Maybe a parable works better, the old Indian parable about 5 blind men and an elephant, how they all describe it differently. I see predestination and free will as parts of an giant elephant. This of course distorts my previous attempt at an analogy so just forget it. But then again, you have said that all things, no matter what a man does is ultimately a praise of gods greatness, even blasphemy?, so maybe the analogy still applies.

[quote]I have to say. I almost feel bad here telling you that you are pretty much correct. Do understand that this goes for everybody ever born if left to themselves without Christ, including me. However, while accepting the bible as God’s word is essential, it’s actually the rejection of the need for redemption from sin through the shed blood and resurrected life of Jesus Christ that qualifies someone as a “living and walking insult”.

Jesus Himself said people can call Him Lord, but live a life of disobedience and never be known by Him (Matthew 7:22ff) to say nothing of people committing overt acts of blasphemy. Both are just as damned. It’s those who are truly born again (John 3) and are transformed into new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15) in the image of the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15) Jesus Christ and whose lives are subsequently led by the Spirit who are sons of God (Romans 8:14).
[/quote]

I, like everybody else, am a sinner, no doubt about that. What comes to the bible I can not understand much of it if it is not understood symbolically, including and in fact, most importantly, Jesus sacrifice, death and resurrection. The way you read it is just gibberish to me. I understand it, sort of, but it lacks sense, substance and nothing resonates. Well, it’s archaic.
From my point of view the bible is not very important in itself, but the experience/s you had/have. May I ask, how do you know that you have to read the bible the way you do, did God tell you that or did you somehow induce it or did someone else tell you or what?
So, short of a personal revelation of some kind, it is unlikely I will be reborn. I would like to know why blasphemy is so important for God, I already know why it is important for men.

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[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Your comparing the stuff of fantasy to that which created the universe? One is not like the other…[/quote]

I don’t believe God created the universe…there’s no proof He exists…it’s an extreme example, sure…but…I think it’s a valid question…insane…but valid…

What would you do if The Church came out with a ‘found’ book of the Bible that talked about Santa Clause and The Easter Bunny wouldn’t you have to accept it as God’s Holy Word?[/quote]

Well the Bible already talks about Lion headed creatures in heaven and people living in a whale. I don’t think it would be that big of a leap to have a guy in a white beard delivering goods to others…[/quote]

And what does it say about such creatures? How many people live in a whale(s). Do you have any idea what you are talking about? [/quote]

Yes, I think I do. You see, I’m actually studying the Bible now unlike you :slight_smile:

  1. Creatures in Heaven
    And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast [was] like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast [was] like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Rev. 4:6-8)
    (The Four Living Creatures - Revelation 4:6-8)

  2. Jonah in the Whale
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah[/quote]

You do know that first century apocalyptic literature is not meant to be taken literally correct? Instead it is full of imagery that has its basis in the old testament and is intended to convey a greater meaning than a basic literal interpretation.

I appreciate that you are reading the Bible. I would encourage you to learn how to study it. That will at the very least give you some understanding to what is being said.

for instance. When Christ said “and the gates of hell will not prevail” he was in a city where the pagans had a site which was known as the gates of hell. [/quote]

Got it, but how do you know which parts to take literally?[/quote]

Tradition, look at what the people that heard it first and read it first and copied it first knew it to mean.

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[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

The reason they probably say Sky Wizard is because it’s mocking. But in all truthfulness, the name doesn’t matter as much as the idea.[/quote]

I don’t say it to mock…I don’t say God, because it’s ridiculous…there’s no such thing as Gods…there’s no one all-powerful God…why would I call something a name that doesn’t exist?
[/quote]

Sen Say! How do you do? Heard you went to the beach, which one did you go to?

Well, about the mocking thing. It’s like this, say you or someone you know is a moral relativist. Now when discussing with them, instead of calling it moral relativism, I call it some name, like dirty stoner hippie theory, now I just put a derogatory name on an otherwise non-derogatory named theory.

Now, I do not believe that moral relativism exists, but in an discussion, it would not lend credibility to my side or help the argument at all to call moral relativism the dirty stoner hippie theory. Not only does it confuse the subject at hand, but it’s also argument by word play, which is an ad hominem.

So, even though you do not believe in God, that doesn’t mean you cannot say the word God in argument. I mean if atheist religious studies professor can use the word God of Abraham, then I am sure you can!

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
<<< Ahh, Michigan, Valtteri Filppula, how stupid of me to not notice :)[/quote]Very good dude!! #51
I’ll get the rest of your post a little later.

[/quote]

Is that really a camera in the net…never seen one of those before, looks like a slap shot would break that thing.

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[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
<<< I, like everybody else, am a sinner, no doubt about that. >>>[/quote]Before we go any further let me ask what you mean by this and why?

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[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
<<< Ahh, Michigan, Valtteri Filppula, how stupid of me to not notice :)[/quote]Very good dude!! #51
I’ll get the rest of your post a little later.

[/quote]

Is that really a camera in the net…never seen one of those before, looks like a slap shot would break that thing.[/quote]Yeah, they’ve been around a while. Scroll down (way down) through this. http://blog.gettyimages.com/tag/nhl/

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
<<< I, like everybody else, am a sinner, no doubt about that. >>>[/quote]Before we go any further let me ask what you mean by this and why?
[/quote]

Oops, probably something else than you. We are prone to violence both physically and mentally, prone to lying and cheating, to hurt others to protect our frail selves etc. That’s what I meant, it doesn’t include God, exept in a cultural sense, so I was able to use the word sin.
Why? It is an allusion to the following sentence you wrote:

[quote]However, while accepting the bible as God’s word is essential, it’s actually the rejection of the need for redemption from sin through the shed blood and resurrected life of Jesus Christ that qualifies someone as a “living and walking insult”.
[/quote]