Misconceptions of Christianity 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
581

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< If this is true, why wouldnt God just skip the first state, have people be born into the “transformed” state, and not put in them the original state which leads to sin?[/quote]See the passage above I quoted from the 9th of Romans.
[/quote]

Not gonna lie, not exactly sure what its all about. Basic message: God can do as god wants? [/quote]Here again are verses 1-24 of the 9th of Romans:[quote]" 1-I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2-that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3-For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4-who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5-whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6-But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7-nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8-That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9-For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10-And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11-for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12-it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13-Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

14-What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15-For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16-So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17-For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18-So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19-You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20-On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21-Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22-What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23-And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24-even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.[/quote]Here we get major though necessarily incomplete clues of the mind of God in relation to sin, redemption from it and by unavoidable implication the role of the will.

Paul has here just proclaimed the free and immutable providence of an almighty God in controlling precisely what transpires in His creation right down to those he will either love or hate. He has used the example of twins not yet born and not having committed any act good or evil and God as unequivocally declaring his love for one and hatred for the other. I have heard and read every conceivable explanation for why this does not mean what it clearly states (and there are plenty of other places in bible affirming this as well).

Paul quite rightly anticipates the instant obvious objection by INDIVIDUAL sinners (v. 19) which would be “hold on there pal. If that’s the case then how can he hold ME responsible for my sin if His will is irresistible”? Paul, being entirely unimpressed offers ZEEROH explanation and responds with the firm rebuke of “on the contrary. WHO ARE YOU O MAN who answers back to God”. Right here Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit has a ready made opportunity to offer any one of the myriad of moderated explanations mortal man has attempted to make this say something else. He doesn’t. He leaves it right there with amounts to “shut up and own the fact that He’s God and you ain’t”.

In verses 22-24 the Apostle parts the veil a bit as it were on exactly the issue of why He purposed that sin should certainly exist and why He appears to tolerate it for the time being. He posits this as a rhetorical question saying in essence “Did you ever stop to think that even though God had every right and sufficient inclination to destroy evil straight away that He did not do so in order that evil should grow ever more evil along side the saints displaying greater and greater contrast between the two, not to mention the fact all must continue until the last of God’s chosen has been redeemed? He further states that sinners were prepared for destruction just as the saints (even us) were prepared BEFOREHAND for glory.”

In 2 Timothy 1:9 Paul also says “who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” His purpose in grace granted in Christ is from all eternity and that cannot be possible if the entrance of sin was not also purposed and rendered certain from all eternity.

Revelation 13:8 calls Jesus Christ the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”. Why is He slain in the plan of God before the entrance of Sin? Because from all eternity sin was a certainty and it was certainty in the purpose of God who is Himself the only being who has so existed. Sin was rendered certain so that the unsearchable love mercy and grace of the one true God could be displayed before His creation in His saving some of them from it. Not in it, but from it.

Maybe more later.
[/quote]

So, god loves some people and hates others, chooses at will who will be who…

and you call this benevolent?

Seriously.[/quote]What I call it is irrelevant. He calls it justice for every last one to die and mercy that He saves some of them. I agree. I agree because I trust Him and I trust Him because He is the author and finisher of my faith. You asked how and why sin came to be and what role the human will plays from a Christian perspective.

God desired that the full splendor of His glorious nature be worshiped by His creatures in His showing Himself ultimately just and unbending in His judgment of evil (defined by Him) on one hand and ultimately loving, merciful and gracious in paying for the sins of His elect Himself and thereby reconciling them to His holy justice on the other.

As Paul says. “Who are you o man (or me?) who answers back to God?” In ways not fully accessible to mortal and fallen men, God rendered the birth of human sin an absolute certainty while remaining fully innocent of it’s commission intending to infallibly order it to His own purpose and exaltation. Once again, I do not understand the precise eternal mechanisms by which He accomplished this and quite honestly I don’t even care anymore. I know that HE understands and that is not just good enough, but fully satisfying to me.

I assure you this was not always the case. In my younger days I read, studied, prayed and meditated on these high questions til my brain hurt and my eyes burned, but somewhere along the way it became clear that if the towering giants of the faith on whose shoulders I was attempting to stand died without understanding, I would too. I act on what He has chosen to reveal and leave His secret providence to Him. I don’t know who the elect are except that I’m one of them. For all I know, regardless of what things look like today, you, Ephrem and Mike may be as well and if you are? You WILL come home and you WILL do it joyfully, humbly and willingly. If not it is none of my business. My business is to tell you in an uncompromising, truthful and gracious manner. All also defined by Him, but executed imperfectly by me.

[/quote]

How do you know you’re one of them?

582

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Tiribulus’ post raised some questions I’d like to ask, I present one of them.

Why does God want to be worshiped? Isn’t that a bit odd and childlike? I can see it having psychologically sound aspects if people worship something because there is a childlike/pure quality in the act of worshiping itself, eventhough it is easy to taint that too. But the idea that God wants to be worshiped because He/She is glorious and splendid is suspicious to me. It sounds like something an earthly king demands from subjects for quite earthly reasons.
As is probably clear, I personally don’t believe God has ever asked for such behaviour from humankind, but it’s men that have spoken for him. Anyway, has this seemingly childish demand from God ever bothered you and if it has, have you found any answers?[/quote]

Shhh. When you see that their god is acting jealously, chidishly, egotistically, selfishly… a whole host of negative attributes… well, he’s perfect, and he can do what he wants, and he’s all loving and perfect.

See my problem with the 'believin folk?

583

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Beats me. That’s the way he want’s it I guess. Just because he doesn’t do what you think he should or want, doesn’t mean it’s right or he does not exist.

…

I suppose it would not be very noble that way, but you have to go to the source and ask him yourself. We can say what he did, but very little about why he did it. I wish it were easier too. But anything you choose ain’t easy, so your screwed no matter what.

…

We don’t know who or what folks do in heaven. We don’t know if people sinned or chose to do something else or not. The truth about what lies beyond death, is that nobody knows save for a select few who have had legit ‘near-death’ experiences. And those folks have only a little insight… Anybody who speaks with authority about the afterlife is usually full of shit. There is very little detailed info in scripture about it. Other sources are at best questionable. The good news, is one day we will all know.
[/quote]

The problem is you attach claims to your god, but the stories you tell and things you believe say otherwise.

A god who acts in the way yours does is not benevolent.

Its not a matter of what I think he should do or not. Its a matter of “If he does this, than this does not apply”[/quote]

God is also sovereign. This is a biggie, some people either don’t get it, or if they do, don’t like it much. Which one are you?

584

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Beats me. That’s the way he want’s it I guess. Just because he doesn’t do what you think he should or want, doesn’t mean it’s right or he does not exist.

…

I suppose it would not be very noble that way, but you have to go to the source and ask him yourself. We can say what he did, but very little about why he did it. I wish it were easier too. But anything you choose ain’t easy, so your screwed no matter what.

…

We don’t know who or what folks do in heaven. We don’t know if people sinned or chose to do something else or not. The truth about what lies beyond death, is that nobody knows save for a select few who have had legit ‘near-death’ experiences. And those folks have only a little insight… Anybody who speaks with authority about the afterlife is usually full of shit. There is very little detailed info in scripture about it. Other sources are at best questionable. The good news, is one day we will all know.
[/quote]

The problem is you attach claims to your god, but the stories you tell and things you believe say otherwise.

A god who acts in the way yours does is not benevolent.

Its not a matter of what I think he should do or not. Its a matter of “If he does this, than this does not apply”[/quote]

God is also sovereign. This is a biggie, some people either don’t get it, or if they do, don’t like it much. Which one are you?
[/quote]

And the attachment of attributes comes from observation, not stubbornness.

If your father gets drunk and hits your mother sometimes, he is a bad man. No amount of “No! My father is a good man! Here let me construct some elaborate rationale for why he’s doing this thing that would otherwise make him a bad man!”

If you want to say that god does as god wants for whatever reason he has and we can’t understand them, thats fine. But don’t also go about trying to attach “good” attributes to him when they simply do not fit.

585

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Beats me. That’s the way he want’s it I guess. Just because he doesn’t do what you think he should or want, doesn’t mean it’s right or he does not exist.

…

I suppose it would not be very noble that way, but you have to go to the source and ask him yourself. We can say what he did, but very little about why he did it. I wish it were easier too. But anything you choose ain’t easy, so your screwed no matter what.

…

We don’t know who or what folks do in heaven. We don’t know if people sinned or chose to do something else or not. The truth about what lies beyond death, is that nobody knows save for a select few who have had legit ‘near-death’ experiences. And those folks have only a little insight… Anybody who speaks with authority about the afterlife is usually full of shit. There is very little detailed info in scripture about it. Other sources are at best questionable. The good news, is one day we will all know.
[/quote]

The problem is you attach claims to your god, but the stories you tell and things you believe say otherwise.

A god who acts in the way yours does is not benevolent.

Its not a matter of what I think he should do or not. Its a matter of “If he does this, than this does not apply”[/quote]

God is also sovereign. This is a biggie, some people either don’t get it, or if they do, don’t like it much. Which one are you?
[/quote]

And the attachment of attributes comes from observation, not stubbornness.

If your father gets drunk and hits your mother sometimes, he is a bad man. No amount of “No! My father is a good man! Here let me construct some elaborate rationale for why he’s doing this thing that would otherwise make him a bad man!”

If you want to say that god does as god wants for whatever reason he has and we can’t understand them, thats fine. But don’t also go about trying to attach “good” attributes to him when they simply do not fit.

[/quote]

I am not going to jump into this part of the discussion since it is getting very circular. I would like to post this quote that I read last month from CS Lewis book a grief observed.

The terrible thing is a perfectly good God is in this matter hardly less formidable than a cosmic sadist. The more we believe that God hurts only to heal, the less we can believe there is any use in begging for tenderness. A cruel man might be bribed-might grow tired of his vile sport-might have a temporary fit of mercy, as alcoholics have fits of sobriety. But suppose that what you are up against is a surgeon whose intention are wholly good. The kinder and more conscientious he is the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to your entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would have been useless. But is it credible that such extremities of torture should be necessary for us? Well, take your choice. The tortures occur. If they are unnecessary then there is no God or a bad one. If there is a good God, then the tortures are necessary. ~CS Lewis

586

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Beats me. That’s the way he want’s it I guess. Just because he doesn’t do what you think he should or want, doesn’t mean it’s right or he does not exist.

…

I suppose it would not be very noble that way, but you have to go to the source and ask him yourself. We can say what he did, but very little about why he did it. I wish it were easier too. But anything you choose ain’t easy, so your screwed no matter what.

…

We don’t know who or what folks do in heaven. We don’t know if people sinned or chose to do something else or not. The truth about what lies beyond death, is that nobody knows save for a select few who have had legit ‘near-death’ experiences. And those folks have only a little insight… Anybody who speaks with authority about the afterlife is usually full of shit. There is very little detailed info in scripture about it. Other sources are at best questionable. The good news, is one day we will all know.
[/quote]

The problem is you attach claims to your god, but the stories you tell and things you believe say otherwise.

A god who acts in the way yours does is not benevolent.

Its not a matter of what I think he should do or not. Its a matter of “If he does this, than this does not apply”[/quote]

God is also sovereign. This is a biggie, some people either don’t get it, or if they do, don’t like it much. Which one are you?
[/quote]

And the attachment of attributes comes from observation, not stubbornness.

If your father gets drunk and hits your mother sometimes, he is a bad man. No amount of “No! My father is a good man! Here let me construct some elaborate rationale for why he’s doing this thing that would otherwise make him a bad man!”

If you want to say that god does as god wants for whatever reason he has and we can’t understand them, thats fine. But don’t also go about trying to attach “good” attributes to him when they simply do not fit.

[/quote]

I am not going to jump into this part of the discussion since it is getting very circular. I would like to post this quote that I read last month from CS Lewis book a grief observed.

The terrible thing is a perfectly good God is in this matter hardly less formidable than a cosmic sadist. The more we believe that God hurts only to heal, the less we can believe there is any use in begging for tenderness. A cruel man might be bribed-might grow tired of his vile sport-might have a temporary fit of mercy, as alcoholics have fits of sobriety. But suppose that what you are up against is a surgeon whose intention are wholly good. The kinder and more conscientious he is the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to your entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would have been useless. But is it credible that such extremities of torture should be necessary for us? Well, take your choice. The tortures occur. If they are unnecessary then there is no God or a bad one. If there is a good God, then the tortures are necessary. ~CS Lewis

[/quote]

Thats actually very good reasoning, and I have no problem with it, so long as no one is trying to say that they know if such tortures are necessary or unnecessary.

587

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Beats me. That’s the way he want’s it I guess. Just because he doesn’t do what you think he should or want, doesn’t mean it’s right or he does not exist.

…

I suppose it would not be very noble that way, but you have to go to the source and ask him yourself. We can say what he did, but very little about why he did it. I wish it were easier too. But anything you choose ain’t easy, so your screwed no matter what.

…

We don’t know who or what folks do in heaven. We don’t know if people sinned or chose to do something else or not. The truth about what lies beyond death, is that nobody knows save for a select few who have had legit ‘near-death’ experiences. And those folks have only a little insight… Anybody who speaks with authority about the afterlife is usually full of shit. There is very little detailed info in scripture about it. Other sources are at best questionable. The good news, is one day we will all know.
[/quote]

The problem is you attach claims to your god, but the stories you tell and things you believe say otherwise.

A god who acts in the way yours does is not benevolent.

Its not a matter of what I think he should do or not. Its a matter of “If he does this, than this does not apply”[/quote]

What claims did I attach to “my God”?

What acts does God do to make him not benevolent?

If he does what then what does not apply?

You making broad claims with out proof or examples. You need to do better to prove your point.

588

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Beats me. That’s the way he want’s it I guess. Just because he doesn’t do what you think he should or want, doesn’t mean it’s right or he does not exist.

…

I suppose it would not be very noble that way, but you have to go to the source and ask him yourself. We can say what he did, but very little about why he did it. I wish it were easier too. But anything you choose ain’t easy, so your screwed no matter what.

…

We don’t know who or what folks do in heaven. We don’t know if people sinned or chose to do something else or not. The truth about what lies beyond death, is that nobody knows save for a select few who have had legit ‘near-death’ experiences. And those folks have only a little insight… Anybody who speaks with authority about the afterlife is usually full of shit. There is very little detailed info in scripture about it. Other sources are at best questionable. The good news, is one day we will all know.
[/quote]

The problem is you attach claims to your god, but the stories you tell and things you believe say otherwise.

A god who acts in the way yours does is not benevolent.

Its not a matter of what I think he should do or not. Its a matter of “If he does this, than this does not apply”[/quote]

God is also sovereign. This is a biggie, some people either don’t get it, or if they do, don’t like it much. Which one are you?
[/quote]

And the attachment of attributes comes from observation, not stubbornness.

If your father gets drunk and hits your mother sometimes, he is a bad man. No amount of “No! My father is a good man! Here let me construct some elaborate rationale for why he’s doing this thing that would otherwise make him a bad man!”

If you want to say that god does as god wants for whatever reason he has and we can’t understand them, thats fine. But don’t also go about trying to attach “good” attributes to him when they simply do not fit.

[/quote]

I am not going to jump into this part of the discussion since it is getting very circular. I would like to post this quote that I read last month from CS Lewis book a grief observed.

The terrible thing is a perfectly good God is in this matter hardly less formidable than a cosmic sadist. The more we believe that God hurts only to heal, the less we can believe there is any use in begging for tenderness. A cruel man might be bribed-might grow tired of his vile sport-might have a temporary fit of mercy, as alcoholics have fits of sobriety. But suppose that what you are up against is a surgeon whose intention are wholly good. The kinder and more conscientious he is the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to your entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would have been useless. But is it credible that such extremities of torture should be necessary for us? Well, take your choice. The tortures occur. If they are unnecessary then there is no God or a bad one. If there is a good God, then the tortures are necessary. ~CS Lewis

[/quote]

Thats actually very good reasoning, and I have no problem with it, so long as no one is trying to say that they know if such tortures are necessary or unnecessary.[/quote]

I enojoyed the book, but that stood out to me. I also enjoyed another piece of the book where he talks about the idea of our departed loves ones resting on a distant shore awaiting us to meet up with them.

He claims it is not only not a biblical stance, but it is also a selfish position.
That instead of God being the object of our desire we make him the means to get to our desire.

He described it as It makes God the road to the destination instead of the actual destination.

Very thought provoking book.

I would like to add this as a thought concerning your point about us attributing human attributes to God like anger, jealousy, revenge etc…

It is very possible that those descriptions are not meant to actually assign those to God, but to allow us to relate to God through the use of our human attributes. Allow us to have perspective on the infinite thourgh our finite ideas.

589

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Tiribulus’ post raised some questions I’d like to ask, I present one of them.

Why does God want to be worshiped? Isn’t that a bit odd and childlike? I can see it having psychologically sound aspects if people worship something because there is a childlike/pure quality in the act of worshiping itself, eventhough it is easy to taint that too. But the idea that God wants to be worshiped because He/She is glorious and splendid is suspicious to me. It sounds like something an earthly king demands from subjects for quite earthly reasons.
As is probably clear, I personally don’t believe God has ever asked for such behaviour from humankind, but it’s men that have spoken for him. Anyway, has this seemingly childish demand from God ever bothered you and if it has, have you found any answers?[/quote]Good job there Valtteri, you threw me a curve =] That was not one of the questions I anticipated would come up right here, but it is a legitimate one which I hope to be able to offer something on today when I get a chance.

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< How do you know you’re one of them?[/quote]Quickly from good ol Romans again: 8:19 "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Thats actually very good reasoning, and I have no problem with it, so long as no one is trying to say that they know if such tortures are necessary or unnecessary.[/quote]It is not possible that a single quark, photon, galaxy, solar system or cry of human pleasure or pain occur in the comprehensive, self glorifying providence of the most high God unnecessarily or without purpose. Even your typical ascription of human attributes to Him as if “good” or “evil” were in your purveyance to dictate and His to obey, are made to lift up His name. He always wins.

590

[quote]haney1 wrote:
<<< He claims it is not only not a biblical stance, but it is also a selfish position.
That instead of God being the object of our desire we make him the means to get to our desire.

He described it as It makes God the road to the destination instead of the actual destination.>>> [/quote]I gotta go, but this caught my eye. This is what I was saying to MikeTheBear a few pages back when I said “God IS the party Mike”. He was talking about how if there is a heaven we would need musicians there for the parties.

591

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
It’s impossible to live without a God. Impossible. If God is not at the center of your life, then you will invariably worship any number of false “gods.” Power, money, status…or, what it often really boils down to: worshipping one’s self as a “god.” Think about it. That’s why Atheism really doesn’t exist.
[/quote]

I don’t understand this…why isn’t this the same as saying, “It’s impossible to live without Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. Impossible. If Santa and Peter Cottontail are not at the center of your life then you will invariably deliver presents and candy yourself. Think about it. That’s why Asanta and Aeasterbunny really don’t exist”?

592

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Quickly from good ol Romans again: 8:19 "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[/quote]

Do you believe everything in the bible to be the Word of God? How do you reconcile a passage like Deuteronomy 22:13-21 where we’re told to stone our wives if we find evidence they’re not virgins?

593

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
It’s impossible to live without a God. Impossible. If God is not at the center of your life, then you will invariably worship any number of false “gods.” Power, money, status…or, what it often really boils down to: worshipping one’s self as a “god.” Think about it. That’s why Atheism really doesn’t exist.
[/quote]

This is just silly.

594

[quote]sen say wrote:
Do you believe everything in the bible to be the Word of God? How do you reconcile a passage like Deuteronomy 22:13-21 where we’re told to stone our wives if we find evidence they’re not virgins?
[/quote]

I’m interested in the answer to this as well. I’ve been studying the Bible more and more these days and find many passages to be very evil. Some of these are from the New Testament as well.

I think the big issue is that most people don’t actually read the Bible and get their information from church sources.

595

Suffice it to say that Christ fulfilled the Levitical law in His incarnation, perfect obedience, crucifixion, death, burial, RESURRECTION, ascension and exaltation. His kingdom and hence mine, is not of this world. (John 18:36). If you are actually interested, which I doubt, I, or somebody else will elaborate further. I still owe responses to some other guys here.

596

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
<<< I think the big issue is that most people don’t actually read the Bible and get their information from church sources.[/quote]As the Lord lives, I give you my solemn word of honor this is not the case with me.

597

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

I’m interested in the answer to this as well. I’ve been studying the Bible more and more these days and find many passages to be very evil. Some of these are from the New Testament as well.

I think the big issue is that most people don’t actually read the Bible and get their information from church sources.[/quote]

I would like to comend you on reading the Bible. I have personally read the Bible straight through only once. I am almost done with the 2nd time through.

I will say that a lot of people that label themselves Christians do exactly what you say they do. When someone calls themselves a Christian does not mean they are. Discernment is a gift from God. You can listen to someone, and notice that what they say does not jive with the Bible. In another thread there are people stating that Timothy McVehy and David Koresh were Christians. There is no reason to beleive they are Christian because their actions show they are not Christians. I agree I screw up and my actions show sometimes that I am not Christ Like. The difference between me and the previous two, is that I go to God and ask for forgiveness for my sins. I apologize for my actions to the people that I offended.

598

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Suffice it to say that Christ fulfilled the Levitical law in His incarnation, perfect obedience, crucifixion, death, burial, RESURRECTION, ascension and exaltation. His kingdom and hence mine, is not of this world. (John 18:36). If you are actually interested, which I doubt, I, or somebody else will elaborate further. I still owe responses to some other guys here.
[/quote]

Sorry for entering the discussion with the Santa Claus Easter Bunny joke…I am sincerely interested in your reply.

I’m not a biblical scholar. I grew up in the church, have read most of the bible. I lost any faith I ever had when I was around 12. Continued to go to church. Raised my kids in the church. Currently send my kids to Catholic school. I just don’t believe in God.

I believe there is a passage in Timothy where Jesus says you still have to obey The Law. I’ll look it up when I get home.

599

[quote]sen say wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
It’s impossible to live without a God. Impossible. If God is not at the center of your life, then you will invariably worship any number of false “gods.” Power, money, status…or, what it often really boils down to: worshipping one’s self as a “god.” Think about it. That’s why Atheism really doesn’t exist.
[/quote]

I don’t understand this…why isn’t this the same as saying, “It’s impossible to live without Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. Impossible. If Santa and Peter Cottontail are not at the center of your life then you will invariably deliver presents and candy yourself. Think about it. That’s why Asanta and Aeasterbunny really don’t exist”?[/quote]

Your comparing the stuff of fantasy to that which created the universe? One is not like the other…

600

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
<<< I think the big issue is that most people don’t actually read the Bible and get their information from church sources.[/quote]As the Lord lives, I give you my solemn word of honor this is not the case with me.
[/quote]

Good to hear, Tirib. I have respect for people on these threads who do indeed read and study the Bible (both theists and non-theists included).

The other night, I was out with some friends, one who was discussing religion. I didn’t bring it up or contribute, but just listened to what they said. The misinformation is very apparent when they start discussing what true Christians should do in a variety of current day situations. They immediately talk about love and peace, but for many of these situations, that’s not the action the Bible commands one should take.

This is just something I’ve noticed. There seems to me, to be a difference between “believers” and “theists”.