[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< If this is true, why wouldnt God just skip the first state, have people be born into the “transformed” state, and not put in them the original state which leads to sin?[/quote]See the passage above I quoted from the 9th of Romans.
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Not gonna lie, not exactly sure what its all about. Basic message: God can do as god wants? [/quote]Here again are verses 1-24 of the 9th of Romans:[quote]" 1-I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2-that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3-For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4-who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5-whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6-But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7-nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8-That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9-For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10-And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11-for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12-it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13-Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
14-What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15-For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16-So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17-For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18-So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19-You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20-On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21-Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22-What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23-And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24-even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.[/quote]Here we get major though necessarily incomplete clues of the mind of God in relation to sin, redemption from it and by unavoidable implication the role of the will.
Paul has here just proclaimed the free and immutable providence of an almighty God in controlling precisely what transpires in His creation right down to those he will either love or hate. He has used the example of twins not yet born and not having committed any act good or evil and God as unequivocally declaring his love for one and hatred for the other. I have heard and read every conceivable explanation for why this does not mean what it clearly states (and there are plenty of other places in bible affirming this as well).
Paul quite rightly anticipates the instant obvious objection by INDIVIDUAL sinners (v. 19) which would be “hold on there pal. If that’s the case then how can he hold ME responsible for my sin if His will is irresistible”? Paul, being entirely unimpressed offers ZEEROH explanation and responds with the firm rebuke of “on the contrary. WHO ARE YOU O MAN who answers back to God”. Right here Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit has a ready made opportunity to offer any one of the myriad of moderated explanations mortal man has attempted to make this say something else. He doesn’t. He leaves it right there with amounts to “shut up and own the fact that He’s God and you ain’t”.
In verses 22-24 the Apostle parts the veil a bit as it were on exactly the issue of why He purposed that sin should certainly exist and why He appears to tolerate it for the time being. He posits this as a rhetorical question saying in essence “Did you ever stop to think that even though God had every right and sufficient inclination to destroy evil straight away that He did not do so in order that evil should grow ever more evil along side the saints displaying greater and greater contrast between the two, not to mention the fact all must continue until the last of God’s chosen has been redeemed? He further states that sinners were prepared for destruction just as the saints (even us) were prepared BEFOREHAND for glory.”
In 2 Timothy 1:9 Paul also says “who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” His purpose in grace granted in Christ is from all eternity and that cannot be possible if the entrance of sin was not also purposed and rendered certain from all eternity.
Revelation 13:8 calls Jesus Christ the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”. Why is He slain in the plan of God before the entrance of Sin? Because from all eternity sin was a certainty and it was certainty in the purpose of God who is Himself the only being who has so existed. Sin was rendered certain so that the unsearchable love mercy and grace of the one true God could be displayed before His creation in His saving some of them from it. Not in it, but from it.
Maybe more later.
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So, god loves some people and hates others, chooses at will who will be who…
and you call this benevolent?
Seriously.[/quote]What I call it is irrelevant. He calls it justice for every last one to die and mercy that He saves some of them. I agree. I agree because I trust Him and I trust Him because He is the author and finisher of my faith. You asked how and why sin came to be and what role the human will plays from a Christian perspective.
God desired that the full splendor of His glorious nature be worshiped by His creatures in His showing Himself ultimately just and unbending in His judgment of evil (defined by Him) on one hand and ultimately loving, merciful and gracious in paying for the sins of His elect Himself and thereby reconciling them to His holy justice on the other.
As Paul says. “Who are you o man (or me?) who answers back to God?” In ways not fully accessible to mortal and fallen men, God rendered the birth of human sin an absolute certainty while remaining fully innocent of it’s commission intending to infallibly order it to His own purpose and exaltation. Once again, I do not understand the precise eternal mechanisms by which He accomplished this and quite honestly I don’t even care anymore. I know that HE understands and that is not just good enough, but fully satisfying to me.
I assure you this was not always the case. In my younger days I read, studied, prayed and meditated on these high questions til my brain hurt and my eyes burned, but somewhere along the way it became clear that if the towering giants of the faith on whose shoulders I was attempting to stand died without understanding, I would too. I act on what He has chosen to reveal and leave His secret providence to Him. I don’t know who the elect are except that I’m one of them. For all I know, regardless of what things look like today, you, Ephrem and Mike may be as well and if you are? You WILL come home and you WILL do it joyfully, humbly and willingly. If not it is none of my business. My business is to tell you in an uncompromising, truthful and gracious manner. All also defined by Him, but executed imperfectly by me.
