What it is, in reality, is manipulating peoples fears and misconceptions about death in order to control them.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Objective truths are truths that are equally true for each and everyone of us, no mattter the circumstances.
Values are therefore never absolute, but relative to the culture or sociaty that holds those values.
An objective truth is: humans need air to survive. Without air we die. This is true for all humans no matter the circumstances.
That’s it.[/quote]
You sure there arent magical creatures that, a long time ago (back when people talked to them directly and saw them all the time) played a joke on humans making them need to breathe air? Or maybe a human bested some fantastical beast and the reward from the wizard judge of the contest was that humans could enjoy air?
…wait… you’re not suggesting that… humans just breathe air and thats it, without some myth or fable to explain why that is… are you???
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
But since you asked so kindly, I’ll tell you what I believe: I believe the universe exists.
Go ahead, disprove that one, buddy.[/quote]
You’ll get no argument from me there. That’s actually quite a nice start. We agree! Now, what - in your mind - follows from that fact. Maybe nothing, I’m just asking!
[/quote]
Then shut the fuck up, because thats what I believe. Nothing has to “follow from it”. I don’t need bedtime stories and fables to make me feel ok about the fact that the universe exsits, I dont need stupid stories about a sky wizard who makes no sense whatsoever.
[/quote]
Okay, so I guess that about does it.
I’m curious though. Why would you care if some people - in your words - “need bedtime stories and fables.” You sound rather upset about this “fact.”
Incidentially, this “fact” is just something that exists in your head. That’s okay though. We’ll assume it’s true for now.
[/quote]
What kind of effect do you think christianity has on nonchristians in america?[/quote]
Speaking from experience, very little.
Certainly nothing worth getting so worked up about.[/quote]
Maybe you’re right.
Honest question: Is there pain, suffering, or death in heaven?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i didn’t post the clip to show someone who lost his faith, but that these people didn’t require a dogma to be happy and content. A life after death didn’t seem to matter to them, and why should it? We’re asked to believe in something no one has proven to exist on the basis of faith, and altough i understand why someone would like to believe there’s an afterlife, or a heaven where we spend an eternity with our loved ones, it’s a mirage of your own making…[/quote]
E, thanks for that clip. I had to Google Dan Everett to learn more about his work and the Piraha. Fascinating stuff. Kept me from getting work done. Hey, you really are the devil!
Let me comment on this part:
What if some of your loved ones didn’t make it into heaven? I can’t remember who made this point - could’ve been Bill Maher or Matt Dillahunty, I’ve watched so many - but he said that if he had to spend eternity in a place, no matter how wonderful, knowing that other people, some of whom may even be loved ones, were condemned to hell for whatever reason (perhaps like Ghandi they lived a good life but never bought into the Jesus thing) and they couldn’t do a damn thing about it (no chance to file an appeal with God, for instance), to them, THAT would be its own kind of hell. I completely agree. If I had a deathbed conversion (hey, it could happen) and just made it into heaven but later found out that my daughter (who will probably adopt my skeptical views) died without the opportunity for a conversion and was condemned to hell, forever, and I could never see her again, then at that moment, I would consider myself to be in hell. I don’t care if God, Jesus, and thousands of angels are there - it would be hell for me.
Here’s another interesting point. Even if I had some guarantee that all of my lineal descendants would make it into heaven, they would still have to live out their lives on earth. That means they would be potentially subject to various forms of pain and suffering whether it be disease, war, whatever, and again I would be unable to do anything about it. That would suck, too. So any way you slice it, any sort of eternal existence, no matter how wonderful, would be a form of hell.
Suddenly, dying doesn’t sound so bad.
T, did I read right that you’re a fan of Neil Peart? That’s a bit of a surprise given his philosophy. I give you “Freewill:”
There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance
A planet of play things
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
‘The stars aren’t aligned
Or the gods are malign…’
Blame is better to give than receive
[Chorus:]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that’s clear
I will choose freewill
There are those who think
That they were dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren’t born in Lotusland
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can’t pray for a place
In heaven’s unearthly estate
[Chorus]
Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that’s far too fleet
[Chorus]
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Honest question: Is there pain, suffering, or death in heaven?[/quote]No
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:What it is, in reality, is manipulating peoples fears and misconceptions about death in order to control them.[/quote]Wow, you managed to squeeze reality, manipulation, people, fear, misconception, death and control into a single pseudo omniscient declaration. Quite impressive ol boy.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Honest question: Is there pain, suffering, or death in heaven?[/quote]No
The word of the day is “impresive.”
Honest question: is there free will in heaven?
[quote]cueball wrote:
…do i think the government was right to lie? It’s not a question of right or wrong: it was necessaty. It’s certainly not something i would do, or be a part of, so for me it wouldn’t be the right thing to do…
It IS a question of right and wrong. Necessity DOES NOT determine what is right or wrong. Nor does it make a wrong act acceptable. It is still wrong. While it might be “right” for the pocket book, stockpile, or world position, that doesn’t make it morally right.
By the way, I can’t believe you said that: “the oil, the minerals, acces to pipelines and shipping lanes and we need a foothold in the area”…was actually a necessity.
[/quote]
…do i really have to spell it out for you? The lie was necessary to get public support for the wars. If you feel it was morally wrong, fight to endict Bush and his cronies. I’m a little surprised actually that you seem to agree with me that is was all a lie. Do you agree that you were lied to?
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…in a way, yes. You [the general you] enabled them to do what they did…
[/quote]
How so? I don’t remember a popular vote taking place in this country for or against going to war. And again, the public didn’t have access to enough information to determine at the time wether we were being deceived or not. So how exactly were we enabling the administration?[/quote]
…true, nobody declared war, and there were massive protests against the war in the USA aswell. So the whole story is far more complex than i make it out to be, and it’s too easy to just shift the blame onto the people like i did here. That’s unfair and shortsighted of me, and i apologize; mea culpa…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …i don’t agree that they are affirmations of the value. I think they’re exceptions. Now what?[/quote]
Now we have yet one more demonstration of why human beings cannot be the final arbiters of right and wrong.[/quote]
…no, it’s better to let a figment of your imagination be the judge of that![/quote]
Before I respond further let me clarify that my point in this case was not even who was right or wrong, but that you asked a totally valid question. What IS in fact to be done when somebody simply and calmly says: “I disagree that__________is wrong or that__________is right or that they’re even values at all. Could be literally anything, who are you to tell me what to do?”
That may not tickle your fertile brain too much, but it is actually still the heart of the matter.
As you surely figured, I agree with Katz (and others) here. Reluctantly (very reluctantly) feeding an intruder some OO magnum buckshot is the regretful, but righteous taking of one life to fulfill my responsibility as a husband and father in protecting the lives of those whose safety I’ve been entrusted with. That is not relativity. That is a reflection of the nature of the God whose handiwork is evident in every particle of reality and especially His own oft mentioned remaining though sin blurred image in man.
I don’t have to guess. Bad guy = pull that trigger. Good guy = protect that life. As a blessedly added bonus (so to speak) I don’t have to guess which is which either. You do have to guess. In fact the very act of guessing presupposes some maybe even unconscious standard against which that guess is made or we very quickly degenerate into essential moral anarchy anywhere we can’t achieve some semblance of civilized consensus.
Even if we DO achieve some semblance of civilized consensus, how long before some appetite or propensity overtakes enough of the populous to render this year’s repugnant no no next year’s groovy new trend? Human civilization is not possible where there is no supra court beyond which there is no appeal. We can read and quote big fat ethics textbooks from now til the return of the Lord, but we end up right here every time.[/quote]
…that very fact T, that there are exceptions to the rule, that makes the rule relative. Now, saying that it isn’t while refering to you god doesn’t make a clear sky less blue, or water less wet. It doesn’t make the sunshine green or less bright; it simply is what it is: an absolute statement of value becomes relative once exceptions are added to it…
…but it doesn’t just end there T, for the statement to be absolute it must also be true for all without exception, under all circumstances. Just like objectivity, claiming something is absolute means it must be equally true for all. I don’t get why that is so hard to understand?
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
What if some of your loved ones didn’t make it into heaven? I can’t remember who made this point - could’ve been Bill Maher or Matt Dillahunty, I’ve watched so many - but he said that if he had to spend eternity in a place, no matter how wonderful, knowing that other people, some of whom may even be loved ones, were condemned to hell for whatever reason (perhaps like Ghandi they lived a good life but never bought into the Jesus thing) and they couldn’t do a damn thing about it (no chance to file an appeal with God, for instance), to them, THAT would be its own kind of hell. I completely agree. If I had a deathbed conversion (hey, it could happen) and just made it into heaven but later found out that my daughter (who will probably adopt my skeptical views) died without the opportunity for a conversion and was condemned to hell, forever, and I could never see her again, then at that moment, I would consider myself to be in hell. I don’t care if God, Jesus, and thousands of angels are there - it would be hell for me.
Here’s another interesting point. Even if I had some guarantee that all of my lineal descendants would make it into heaven, they would still have to live out their lives on earth. That means they would be potentially subject to various forms of pain and suffering whether it be disease, war, whatever, and again I would be unable to do anything about it. That would suck, too. So any way you slice it, any sort of eternal existence, no matter how wonderful, would be a form of hell.
Suddenly, dying doesn’t sound so bad. [/quote]
…that’s actually something i never considered, and a nice argument to have for future discussions. Thanks Mike!
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
What it is, in reality, is manipulating peoples fears and misconceptions about death in order to control them.[/quote]
This is my first response to you, and it’s true that many religions and congregations that call themselves christian use this tactic in order to get power and money in order to spend it on beautiful buildings in order to bring attention to the organization. But Christianity is about having a personal relationship with Jesus and knowing, walking, talking and obeying him as insane this may make Christians sound to you. When a person has a personal relationship with Christ there is no third party as you put it to manipulate and control you. One is either a slave to sin or to Christ.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< T, did I read right that you’re a fan of Neil Peart? That’s a bit of a surprise given his philosophy. I give you “Freewill:” >>>[/quote]You are not listening which is OK. I’m nobody special that you should be required to listen to. I said to Ephrem that the very last place on earth I would look for anything substantive about anything substantive would be Hollywood or the music world. I love Rush’s music still and appreciate their God given talent even though they don’t.
However Peart is a pagan and I give no more credence to the lyrics he writes than I do to the graffiti on the walls around here. The man IS a genius (and a universally recognized world class drummer) and a poignant reminder of how futile a fine intellect is while still in it’s sins.
I know every note of every instrument (I’m not kidding, even the 13 minute instrumentals) and every syllable of every lyric ever recorded by RUSH. I could have saved you the trouble and recited from memory the words to Freewill which was on the Permanent Waves album from 1980, the first year I saw them live. As was the Spirit of Radio, another very famous song of theirs and one their all time masterpieces Natural Science (you’d love that one).
For another real anti Christian gem check out Heresy or Roll the Bones (and some others). I don’t look to them for inspiration beyond the fact that God makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. Common grace my friend. Everybody gets some. I don’t need Lifeson, Lee and Peart to be anything more than musicians.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Honest question: Is there pain, suffering, or death in heaven?[/quote]No
The word of the day is “impresive.”
Honest question: is there free will in heaven?[/quote]
By what is probably your definition I don’t believe there is free will on earth (an absolutely mind bending and humongous topic). Near as I can tell it does change after the resurrection into sinlessness, but it is still not possible for so much as an electron to be out of place in God’s providence and decrees in any case whatsoever.
And Joab your post is excellent.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
One is either a slave to sin or to Christ.[/quote]
Serious question - is it really that black and white? Either sin or Christ - non middle ground.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< T, did I read right that you’re a fan of Neil Peart? That’s a bit of a surprise given his philosophy. I give you “Freewill:” >>>[/quote]You are not listening which is OK. I’m nobody special that you should be required to listen to. I said to Ephrem that the very last place on earth I would look for anything substantive about anything substantive would be Hollywood or the music world. I love Rush’s music still and appreciate their God given talent even though they don’t.
However Peart is a pagan and I give no more credence to the lyrics he writes than I do to the graffiti on the walls around here. The man IS a genius (and a universally recognized world class drummer) and a poignant reminder of how futile a fine intellect is while still in it’s sins.
I know every note of every instrument (I’m not kidding, even the 13 minute instrumentals) and every syllable of every lyric ever recorded by RUSH. I could have saved you the trouble and recited from memory the words to Freewill which was on the Permanent Waves album from 1980, the first year I saw them live. As was the Spirit of Radio, another very famous song of theirs and one their all time masterpieces Natural Science (you’d love that one).
For another real anti Christian gem check out Heresy or Roll the Bones (and some others). I don’t look to them for inspiration beyond the fact that God makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. Common grace my friend. Everybody gets some. I don’t need Lifeson, Lee and Peart to be anything more than musicians.
[/quote]
My theory is that if there is a heaven then all musicians end up there. Otherwise, God’s parties would be lame. Who wants to rock with the Vienna Boys Choir?
I’m trying to learn the bass portion of YYZ. It’s gonna take some time.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< If I had a deathbed conversion (hey, it could happen) and just made it into heaven but later found out that my daughter (who will probably adopt my skeptical views) died without the opportunity for a conversion and was condemned to hell, forever, and I could never see her again, then at that moment, I would consider myself to be in hell. I don’t care if God, Jesus, and thousands of angels are there - it would be hell for me. >>>[/quote]While this is another standard and from the unbelievers perspective perfectly reasonable assertion, it once again demonstrates the utterly (and tragically) earth bound myopic vision suffered by those who have not yet met the Master. Also, don’t be too shocked if your daughter is the one who eventually leads you to the Lord. I know I wouldn’t be.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< T, did I read right that you’re a fan of Neil Peart? That’s a bit of a surprise given his philosophy. I give you “Freewill:” >>>[/quote]You are not listening which is OK. I’m nobody special that you should be required to listen to. I said to Ephrem that the very last place on earth I would look for anything substantive about anything substantive would be Hollywood or the music world. I love Rush’s music still and appreciate their God given talent even though they don’t.
However Peart is a pagan and I give no more credence to the lyrics he writes than I do to the graffiti on the walls around here. The man IS a genius (and a universally recognized world class drummer) and a poignant reminder of how futile a fine intellect is while still in it’s sins.
I know every note of every instrument (I’m not kidding, even the 13 minute instrumentals) and every syllable of every lyric ever recorded by RUSH. I could have saved you the trouble and recited from memory the words to Freewill which was on the Permanent Waves album from 1980, the first year I saw them live. As was the Spirit of Radio, another very famous song of theirs and one their all time masterpieces Natural Science (you’d love that one).
For another real anti Christian gem check out Heresy or Roll the Bones (and some others). I don’t look to them for inspiration beyond the fact that God makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. Common grace my friend. Everybody gets some. I don’t need Lifeson, Lee and Peart to be anything more than musicians.
[/quote]
My theory is that if there is a heaven then all musicians end up there. Otherwise, God’s parties would be lame. Who wants to rock with the Vienna Boys Choir?
I’m trying to learn the bass portion of YYZ. It’s gonna take some time.
[/quote]
While you’re on the Moving Pictures album throw in the bass lines to The Camera Eye while you’re at it. God IS the party Mike.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
One is either a slave to sin or to Christ.[/quote]
Serious question - is it really that black and white? Either sin or Christ - non middle ground.
[/quote]I don’t mean to jump Joab in line here, but yes it is. Dead in sin or alive in Christ and yes he is correct. Paul tells us humans ARE universally enslaved either to sin or to righteousness.
Here is one of the very few musicians on the face of God’s green earth I go to for inspiration (though that’s not really the way to put it). I already quoted this part of it, but again I give you Micheal Card, who really REALLY gets it:
God’s Own Fool
So come lose your life for a carpenter’s son,
for a madman Who died for a dream.
Then you’ll have the faith His first followers had,
and you’ll feel the weight of the beam.
So surrender the hunger to say you must know,
have the courage to say: “I believe”.
For the power of God’s paradox opens your eyes,
and blinds those who say they can see.
Chorus:
When we in our foolishness thought we were wise
He played the fool and He opened our eyes.
When we in our weakness believed we were strong,
He became helpless to show we were wrong
And so we follow God’s own fool;
for only the foolish can tell.
Believe the unbelievable;
come be a fool as well